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TallyMan
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01 Sep 2012, 9:15 am

InThisTogether wrote:
TallyMan wrote:

Good for her! Shows she is thinking for herself and not accepting the religious BS you are trying to shove down her throat.


Inappropriate and unhelpful, TallyMan.


On the contrary it is quite appropriate. The only inappropriate activity is trying to indoctrinate a child with religious brainwashing about sky fairies.



InThisTogether
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01 Sep 2012, 9:22 am

TallyMan wrote:
InThisTogether wrote:
TallyMan wrote:

Good for her! Shows she is thinking for herself and not accepting the religious BS you are trying to shove down her throat.


Inappropriate and unhelpful, TallyMan.


On the contrary it is quite appropriate. The only inappropriate activity is trying to indoctrinate a child with religious brainwashing about sky fairies.


Except that it is offensive, and posting offensive comments is prohibited as per the agreed upon rules of the forum. Calling someone's central beliefs "BS" (cursing, also against the rules) can be viewed as nothing else but offensive.

You could have said "I actually believe that her resistance indicates that she is thinking for herself, which could be construed as a good thing. Not all people practice religion, nor agree with it."


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TallyMan
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01 Sep 2012, 9:41 am

InThisTogether wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
InThisTogether wrote:
TallyMan wrote:

Good for her! Shows she is thinking for herself and not accepting the religious BS you are trying to shove down her throat.


Inappropriate and unhelpful, TallyMan.


On the contrary it is quite appropriate. The only inappropriate activity is trying to indoctrinate a child with religious brainwashing about sky fairies.


Except that it is offensive, and posting offensive comments is prohibited as per the agreed upon rules of the forum. Calling someone's central beliefs "BS" (cursing, also against the rules) can be viewed as nothing else but offensive.

You could have said "I actually believe that her resistance indicates that she is thinking for herself, which could be construed as a good thing. Not all people practice religion, nor agree with it."


My post reflects my anger at the parents of this girl. As a child I had Christianity forced down my throat with physical beatings for refusing to pray aloud to God. "Jesus is love WHACK!" So you can see why I feel empathy for this poor girl resisting being indoctrinated and nothing but contempt for her parents. The least they could do is allow her the choice and not browbeat her about it. If the girl chooses to become an active Christian when she is older that is her own choice.



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01 Sep 2012, 10:15 am

One of the perks of being a moderator: You don't have to follow rules. :D
That is not meant to be a jab at anyone.
I am not religious (long story - a whole 'nother Oprah), but I'd suggest (presuming someone would even want to hear it) that you either talk to your child about why she doesn't seem too enthused by religion or simply let it go. People have the right to believe whatever they want to, regardless of age. I can appreciate the idea that others may look down upon you for not being "Christian enough" to keep your home a "Christian home," but chances are, those critics are not very true to their beliefs either. Even the Bible addresses living with someone who is not a believer (spouse) and how the believers should lead by example, so that the positive behaviors would lead to the non-believer converting (on their own volition--1 Cor. 7:13). Of course, there are verses saying the opposite, but getting into that would require an entire new thread...



InThisTogether
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01 Sep 2012, 10:37 am

TallyMan wrote:
As a child I had Christianity forced down my throat with physical beatings for refusing to pray aloud to God. "Jesus is love WHACK!" So you can see why I feel empathy for this poor girl resisting being indoctrinated and nothing but contempt for her parents. The least they could do is allow her the choice and not browbeat her about it. If the girl chooses to become an active Christian when she is older that is her own choice.


A very valid point of view, but totally lost when you call someone's central beliefs "BS." Take out the "indoctrinated" part and the "contempt for her parents" part and I think you have contributed a valuable point of view to the conversation.

Plus, you have no reason to believe these parents have ever laid a hand on their daughter, nor do you know for certain that they "browbeat" her. For all you know, they are very passive people who are simply concerned that their daughter does not feel like God loves her and is not interested in learning more.

I'm just sayin...


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cubedemon6073
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01 Sep 2012, 12:34 pm

InThisTogether wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
As a child I had Christianity forced down my throat with physical beatings for refusing to pray aloud to God. "Jesus is love WHACK!" So you can see why I feel empathy for this poor girl resisting being indoctrinated and nothing but contempt for her parents. The least they could do is allow her the choice and not browbeat her about it. If the girl chooses to become an active Christian when she is older that is her own choice.


A very valid point of view, but totally lost when you call someone's central beliefs "BS." Take out the "indoctrinated" part and the "contempt for her parents" part and I think you have contributed a valuable point of view to the conversation.

Plus, you have no reason to believe these parents have ever laid a hand on their daughter, nor do you know for certain that they "browbeat" her. For all you know, they are very passive people who are simply concerned that their daughter does not feel like God loves her and is not interested in learning more.

I'm just sayin...


Honestly we don't know what the home situation is like. We do not have all of the facts. TallyMan she is right on the things she has said, I do understand you have a lot of pain and anguish coming from it. I am going to say this to you my friend because I have experience with this. You have a lot of anger inside of you as do a lot of those on the autism spectrum. I can say that your anger will consume you. Your anger can change your very thoughts to thoughts that are very negative. It can change who you are. Like Yoda says, “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” I believe this is true.

As an aside, In our quest to vanquish monsters do we become the very monsters we seek to destroy? This is the path I fear Neurodiversity and the Autism Rights movement is going on. If this is the path we are heading, what good is trying to fight for our rights and acceptance if we have to give up our souls and humanity to do so? If this occurs does or victory become phyrric meaning our rights and acceptance are gained at too great of a cost. If my only choices were either be cured and keep my soul or to fight and lose my soul I'll take the cure for my aspergers/autism.

This is the same with Christanity. In our quest to vanquish the hypocrisy that comes from some of the followers do we become the very hypocrite and monster we seek to destroy. This is another aspect I've been wrestling with and things are much more complex then we all think. I have no answers. Sorry for my thread jacking.



BlueMax
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01 Sep 2012, 1:00 pm

InThisTogether wrote:
TallyMan wrote:

Good for her! Shows she is thinking for herself and not accepting the religious BS you are trying to shove down her throat.


Inappropriate and unhelpful, TallyMan.


...and from a moderator no less. :? Let people make up their own minds, you're forcing atheism even harder than her parents are their religion. That's common though.

Anyway... it's going to be harder to convince someone whose life sucks because of a crappy "deal of the cards" that someone they can't see loved them and wants only good things. Not to mention, that's not even what Christianity is all about - there are no promises for easy life, that's a lie.

If anything is an Aspie trait, it's the need for information... there's a LOT of information and science out there (good and bad) that both support and deny all aspects of religion and evolution... there's no absolute evidence of anything and any religion (including the belief system of atheism) must be taken with a certain amount of faith... choosing which "reality" one wants to live in.


You can't force anyone - and the harder you push, the more you push them away. That goes for pretty much anything.



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01 Sep 2012, 1:29 pm

when DH decided to read childrens bible to my son when he was 6, my son took is extremely literal and went to total strangers preaching about god and satan...example, he would hear someone talking loud to a child, and go to them and say "God wont allow you in heaven if you talk mean to him, you wil have to live with Sait". (he didnt say Satan he said Sait instead).

Or he would just go to anyone and tell them how God wont allow them in heaven if they dont follow him or his rules, etc...


He didnt understand AT ALL that we cannot talk to strangers about this, or that others might not believe in the bible, or that it might hurt someone to hear that. He just knew what his dad read and took it as law. I had to stop the bible reading casue I was getting horrible looks and nasty comments from some people. My son is an example that getting too much info about the religion isnt always a good thing. I hope when he is older and his dad wants to read bible with him, that he can look at it from a more objective POV. He goes to church 1x a year, maybe 2 with his dad, and we dont send him to religion, it is too complex to explain to him and he just doesnt understand.

Whatever he decides to do with religion I will bck him 100%. If he wants to persue it, great, if not great....

It must be hard for the OP if they are very religious and want to share that with their child. But no matter what we cant force antying on our kids, maybe just give her time and space, and let her explore things on her own. Set GOOD examples, show her how god wants you to live in my opinion is better then anything they can read in the bible.

good luck!


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01 Sep 2012, 2:20 pm

My family is Christian (practicing via the Catholic denomination) and I have noticed that you have to change the language of faith a little if you want it to make sense for your Aspie. Or, at least, we did. My son truly is not interested in having a personal relationship with someone he cannot touch or see, but he is very interested in believing in that entity, he is very interested in being a good citizen of this world, and he is very interested in the whole history of faith, reading the Bible and integrating it with science, and all that. In other words, he has a very intellectual approach to faith, and that is what works for him. He believes because his scientific logic accepts that there must be a God, as there are so many things science cannot answer, and not because of the emotional appeal of faith, which is what a personal relationship with Jesus is all about. My daughter, on the other hand, loves looking at faith as a personal relationship, and we pulled her out of Catholic religion class because the Catholic approach just wasn't working for her, while homeschooling from some non-denominational Christian texts is something she finds inspiring.

If you want your daughter to have faith, you have to allow her to look at it in her own unique way, and find the variation that will work for her. I know that we all want to believe that our church has the "best" path to God, but in the end I believe that there are no single "best" paths, just the one that is best for the unique person involved. That is why God has allowed His church to evolve with so many different practices and beliefs: He knows that His children need it. That is what I believe, anyway, and that sort of approach will give you a better chance at helping your daughter find her faith. IMHO.


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01 Sep 2012, 2:27 pm

^^^ Sounds like you're on the right path to me. Nothing is perfect as long as humans are involved. ;)



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01 Sep 2012, 2:28 pm

TallyMan wrote:
InThisTogether wrote:
TallyMan wrote:

Good for her! Shows she is thinking for herself and not accepting the religious BS you are trying to shove down her throat.


Inappropriate and unhelpful, TallyMan.


On the contrary it is quite appropriate. The only inappropriate activity is trying to indoctrinate a child with religious brainwashing about sky fairies.


You are being unhelpful, because saying what you know the parent doesn't want to hear increases the odds that the parent flees the forum and never returns, thereby insuring that she doesn't obtain all the valuable information here that would help her help her daughter find a happier place in life.

The parenting forum has a different tone for that reason. You know it, you've just let your personal history overcome the desire to truly help the daughter.

Just think about it and then decide if cleaning up the thread a little might be the better approach. Share how you felt, by all means, but say it in a way the parent might be open to. You know this.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 02 Sep 2012, 1:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

DW_a_mom
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01 Sep 2012, 2:37 pm

CyborgUprising wrote:
One of the perks of being a moderator: You don't have to follow rules. :D
That is not meant to be a jab at anyone.
I am not religious (long story - a whole 'nother Oprah), but I'd suggest (presuming someone would even want to hear it) that you either talk to your child about why she doesn't seem too enthused by religion or simply let it go. People have the right to believe whatever they want to, regardless of age. I can appreciate the idea that others may look down upon you for not being "Christian enough" to keep your home a "Christian home," but chances are, those critics are not very true to their beliefs either. Even the Bible addresses living with someone who is not a believer (spouse) and how the believers should lead by example, so that the positive behaviors would lead to the non-believer converting (on their own volition--1 Cor. 7:13). Of course, there are verses saying the opposite, but getting into that would require an entire new thread...


I think delving deep into the child's reasons is a good idea. To really understand where she is coming from. And then leading by example - positive example - also good.

It is very hard for a person of faith to accept that their child might not have faith, because that means (depending on the faith) a horrible eternity for the person they love. So presenting a different approach to acquiring faith is going to be a lot better received than saying, "let them choose."


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01 Sep 2012, 2:57 pm

Each individual should be free to choose their own religion. If she wants to be atheist/agnostic/whatever, just leave her alone. Besides, outside of brainwashing, it seems to be impossible to change the beliefs (or lack thereof) of a person. I know that because I am an atheist and I could not go back to believing (like I did when I was her age) even if I wanted to.


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01 Sep 2012, 6:54 pm

Tallyman, you could have said "brainwashing a helpless child" instead of "shoving BS down her throat", but that's just my opinion.


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TallyMan
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02 Sep 2012, 3:43 am

Fnord wrote:
Tallyman, you could have said "brainwashing a helpless child" instead of "shoving BS down her throat", but that's just my opinion.


You are right. I apologise to the OP and others I have offended. I allowed my own extremely negative experiences of being force-fed Christianity as a child to raise my anger towards the OP. The beatings with a cane for non-acceptance and refusing to pray started when I was 11 years old. It is the one topic guaranteed to push my buttons and bring out the worst in me; this is not my normal behaviour. I won't post in this thread again. Sorry for my outburst. :(



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02 Sep 2012, 10:27 am

TallyMan wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Tallyman, you could have said "brainwashing a helpless child" instead of "shoving BS down her throat", but that's just my opinion.


You are right. I apologise to the OP and others I have offended. I allowed my own extremely negative experiences of being force-fed Christianity as a child to raise my anger towards the OP. The beatings with a cane for non-acceptance and refusing to pray started when I was 11 years old. It is the one topic guaranteed to push my buttons and bring out the worst in me; this is not my normal behaviour. I won't post in this thread again. Sorry for my outburst. :(


Your apology is most definitely accepted by me (though unnecessary as I am not angry or upset, just sharing my perspective) and I am very sorry about what happened to you. It is understandable why you reacted as strongly as you did.


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