Page 2 of 5 [ 77 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next

InThisTogether
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Jul 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,709
Location: USA

02 Sep 2012, 10:27 am

TallyMan wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Tallyman, you could have said "brainwashing a helpless child" instead of "shoving BS down her throat", but that's just my opinion.


You are right. I apologise to the OP and others I have offended. I allowed my own extremely negative experiences of being force-fed Christianity as a child to raise my anger towards the OP. The beatings with a cane for non-acceptance and refusing to pray started when I was 11 years old. It is the one topic guaranteed to push my buttons and bring out the worst in me; this is not my normal behaviour. I won't post in this thread again. Sorry for my outburst. :(


Your apology is most definitely accepted by me (though unnecessary as I am not angry or upset, just sharing my perspective) and I am very sorry about what happened to you. It is understandable why you reacted as strongly as you did.


_________________
Mom to 2 exceptional atypical kids
Long BAP lineage


spongy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,055
Location: Patiently waiting for the seventh wave

02 Sep 2012, 1:07 pm

Marms wrote:
My daughter is 12 and has Asperger's. We are Christians and try to get her interested in church. The problem is she couldn't care less about "loving Jesus" for dying for our sins. I guess it's the lack of empathy that goes with Asperger's but it's a real problem with me and her outlook on the world. She is at a point where she hates everything, doesn't want any help and is ashamed to be " weird". I'm at a loss. She's so much as said God must not love her to make her this way. No amount of reassurance and talking does any good.


I happen to have been extremely involved in some church related activities recently(90% the pictures of me this year can be traced back to someone at youth group...)

One question that comes up quite recently is how do my parents feel about the whole thing?
I try to explain to them that my father isnt really fond of church but they let us choose our own faith and I decided to have a look at protestantism(someone on the street approached me at a low point if it had been a budhist Id probably be talking about budhism)
The followup question is always why isnt he fond of church?
As soon as I explain that he wasnt really comfortable there at age 12 and that they forced him to go until he was 14 and this makes him feel uncomfortable about going to church even now they all say that they understand and move on to another topic(what got me interested on religion?/whatever...)


This is a extremely common thing and Ive seen several members at church who had similar experiences.
The difference? that they werent forced to believe by anyone and eventually they decided to give a second chance to religion by themselves once they were older.


Theres a quote that a friend of mine(who happens to be a pastor) has said over almost every mass and its that the relationship between a person and god has to be personal.
You cant try to become religious because your partner/that person you fancy/your family happens to be religious. You need to wait until you hear the call yourself and you become interested by your own means.
Each religious person has their own relationship with god and they know wether he is ok or not with the choices they are making.
Being forced by someone to follow a certain religion means that this relationship will quite likely be weak and disappear at the first opportunity a person finds


There are also several other ways of learning some of the greatest things that a religion can teach you by other means(I hadnt stepped into a church in about 7 years there hasnt been an issue with youth group because Ive done my own research on manners/morals... outside of church related enviroments)



Marms
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 29

02 Sep 2012, 4:38 pm

Aspinator wrote:
What if someone told you that starting tomorrow, you would have to face the east, kneel, and pray to Allah. If you are incensed by the idea of this it is probably because you dislike someone forcing their beliefs on you. Maybe your daughter feels the same way.



Let me just say to you all that we are born again Christians and have a relationship with God. We don't consider it a religion. We believe the Bible is the word of God. My daughter has been raised in a Christian home all her life and is a believer. She however hasnt been saved yet. The problem is that we have been to several churches over the years and leave when we realize they are nothing more than motivational speaking centers. In doing so, my daughter has never gotten truly rooted into it. When she has been in the kids church, because of her AS doesn't make friends or fit in. She sits with us and of course is bored. No one is shoving anything down her throat and since she is a child she will learn to believe the way we feel a child should be brought up, in Gods word. She sees Godly living in our home every day. We are honest law abiding citizens and expect the same from her. She is at a point now, due to depression and AS that she doesn't care about anything, from school, to Church to washing her hair. And yes, it is due to her AS that she lacks empathy, therefore lacks the normal feeling one would have for a savior dying for our sins, which by the way, we all have.

And if anyone is beating a child that person is not a Christian in the first place so why turn your back on God? He didn't beat you, your misguided ignorant father did.



Marms
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 29

02 Sep 2012, 4:49 pm

lady_katie wrote:
Hello, I have AS and I was raised in a very "Christian" home. My problem was always that I would read very clear, logical statements in the bible that made perfect sense to me, and than witness behavior in church and in my supposedly Christian home that was contradictory to what I read. I could make sense of the bible, but I couldn't make sense of the behavior, so I would ask questions and instead of being met with insightful answers, everyone, including church officials would respond out of anger. I was constantly told that I had no faith, or lacked the ability to believe because I "questioned the bible" (not true, I questioned people's responses to the bible). To me, this was illogical and made no sense because frankly it WAS illogical and made no sense. In retrospect, I now see that I was probably right the majority of the time, but everyone else felt like doing whatever they wanted and behaving however they wanted even if it was in direct contradiction to the Word of God. Now that I'm an adult, I've chosen a denomination that tends to practice what they preach, or at the very least they acknowledge when they are wrong and try to repent. I personally find that the bible makes a lot of sense to me, it's the church that has always brought confusion to my Christian walk.


I completely agree with your
last sentence. It's hard to find a church that's not all fluff.



Marms
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 16 Apr 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 29

02 Sep 2012, 4:55 pm

InThisTogether wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
As a child I had Christianity forced down my throat with physical beatings for refusing to pray aloud to God. "Jesus is love WHACK!" So you can see why I feel empathy for this poor girl resisting being indoctrinated and nothing but contempt for her parents. The least they could do is allow her the choice and not browbeat her about it. If the girl chooses to become an active Christian when she is older that is her own choice.


A very valid point of view, but totally lost when you call someone's central beliefs "BS." Take out the "indoctrinated" part and the "contempt for her parents" part and I think you have contributed a valuable point of view to the conversation.

Plus, you have no reason to believe these parents have ever laid a hand on their daughter, nor do you know for certain that they "browbeat" her. For all you know, they are very passive people who are simply concerned that their daughter does not feel like God loves her and is not interested in learning more.

I'm just sayin...

Your comment is spot on. She has been brought up in a Christian home and always had held to the same beliefs. She is just now hating life and everything about it. Naturally we are concerned why she feels like God doesn't love her, the same as we are concerned why a gorgeous girl now thinks she's ugly. If you dont try and understand your kids who else will?



FalsettoTesla
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2011
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 536
Location: North of North

02 Sep 2012, 6:01 pm

Marms wrote:
And yes, it is due to her AS that she lacks empathy, therefore lacks the normal feeling one would have for a savior dying for our sins, which by the way, we all have.


The subject of empathy and AS is a hotly contested issue. The majority of people with AS will tell you that we do have empathy, it's just of a different sort. The reason it sometimes seems like people with AS lack empathy is because it is harder for some of us to recognise the emotions that someone is feeling through tone of voice or facial expressions, but if it is properly explained what the emotion is, then we can empathise.

Also, I would argue that is isn't a feeling that we all have - some sort of emotional reaction to someone 'dying for our sins'. I know that I have never experienced this. I know many of my friends and relatives have not experienced this. Which is why we're atheists, that and a lot of other reasons.

I know that I can look up to the sky, and around in awe of the natural universe, and the processes which lead to its existence. But I don't try to attribute it to a deity.

It seems arrogant to me to claim you know The Definitive Truth and everyone else's truth is wrong. Although you're free to believe whatever you wish, you cannot impose your beliefs on other people, even your children. They are not extensions of yourself, they're their own people.



Aspinator
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 934
Location: AspinatorLand

02 Sep 2012, 8:03 pm

There are 20,000 some different religions in the world. If you ask the adherents of each one, they will tell you theirs is the only true way. Just because you were born in the West doesn't mean you should blindly accept Christianity; or from the East. become a Buddhist, or from the Arab world, become a Muslim. There are truths in every religion and everyone needs to accept for themselves what they are going/not going to believe.



DW_a_mom
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,683
Location: Northern California

03 Sep 2012, 12:53 am

Marm, I was thinking about this and while from your descriptions I'm not sure you'd be accepting of any of the ritualistic denominations, it might actually be something your daughter connects to better. My AS son loves ritual and predictability, which is one of the reasons he had such an easy path to faith in the Catholic church. You receive holy communion at age X after completing steps A - L. You are confirmed and receive the Holy Spirit (pretty much the Catholic equivalent to being saved, ie making a decisive "adult" decision to have faith) at 13-16, depending on the parish, after completing steps M - Z. The paths are very clear there, which might be a whole lot easier for your daughter to grasp than the "died for our sins, personal savior" model. I realize that you may believe that the later is the only model that will get her saved, but I've had that theological argument with quite a few people, and rather than try to enter into a PPR debate here, I will repeat what I indicated in my earlier post: I truly believe that there are many paths to faith and being saved (ie having a future in Heaven), and I strongly believe that God designed it that way because He knows what His diverse children need. I have spent a lot of time in many different churches and have done retreats with various evangelical groups, but in the end decided to return to the faith family I was raised in, feeling that in a way it was what God had chosen for me.

Unfortunately there are many adults who have had horrible experiences in the Catholic church (I believe TallyMan being one of them), and as with any church, how things play out in a parish varies quite a bit from parish to parish, diocese to diocese. So I can't say if it could work for your daughter, but if your goal is for her to find meaningful faith, you may have to consider many different options, and it could be worth exploring. If the language you use to describe your faith experience and belief system doesn't make sense to her, dragging her to a dozen churches that all use the same language and system won't change it. But allowing her to experience faith in an entirely different way quite possibly will. You just have to have faith that maybe it is what God wants for her.


_________________
Mom to an amazing young adult AS son, plus an also amazing non-AS daughter. Most likely part of the "Broader Autism Phenotype" (some traits).


cubedemon6073
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Nov 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,953

03 Sep 2012, 1:14 am

Marms wrote:
Aspinator wrote:
What if someone told you that starting tomorrow, you would have to face the east, kneel, and pray to Allah. If you are incensed by the idea of this it is probably because you dislike someone forcing their beliefs on you. Maybe your daughter feels the same way.



Let me just say to you all that we are born again Christians and have a relationship with God. We don't consider it a religion. We believe the Bible is the word of God. My daughter has been raised in a Christian home all her life and is a believer. She however hasnt been saved yet. The problem is that we have been to several churches over the years and leave when we realize they are nothing more than motivational speaking centers. In doing so, my daughter has never gotten truly rooted into it. When she has been in the kids church, because of her AS doesn't make friends or fit in. She sits with us and of course is bored. No one is shoving anything down her throat and since she is a child she will learn to believe the way we feel a child should be brought up, in Gods word. She sees Godly living in our home every day. We are honest law abiding citizens and expect the same from her. She is at a point now, due to depression and AS that she doesn't care about anything, from school, to Church to washing her hair. And yes, it is due to her AS that she lacks empathy, therefore lacks the normal feeling one would have for a savior dying for our sins, which by the way, we all have.

And if anyone is beating a child that person is not a Christian in the first place so why turn your back on God? He didn't beat you, your misguided ignorant father did.


Let's say she lacks the empathy and the normal feeling one could have for a savior dying for our sins. How is it logically possible for her to accept Jesus as her lord and savior? How is it possble for her to have the ability to accept him? If it is not possible and if Jesus is God then did God create her without the ability to choose him therefore negating part of her freewill? If she lacks freewill in this regard then is she correct in what she says that God does not love her? If my logic is wrong and I have a fallacy will you please show me?



ASDMommyASDKid
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,666

03 Sep 2012, 4:15 am

Disclaimer: I am not a religious person

If I am understanding what you are saying it is that your daughter is a believer in your religion in general, but not at the "born again" stage. Is that right?

My very limited understanding of this process is that the whole point of requiring this step is that the person is supposed to come to this realization in a serious, sincere way when she is ready and not when other people decide that for her. I do not know what age for which is this sincerely typical (as opposed to going through the motions for peers and family) but I don't know that in your belief system that this matters, or should matter. I would presume being "saved" at 50 is just as good as 15, but that is based on very limited knowledge.

Aspies tend to be authentic people. They do not necessarily conform to expectations, and I would think that you would be pleased. here is why:

1) How many kids do you think probably fake it to please their parents (or at least get them off their case) and fit in with the peers in their community? Based on my admittedly limited knowledge, that is not truly beings"saved." So she is probably actually closer to this then the fakers because she takes religion seriously enough not to "blaspheme" it with fakery. People willing to fake it are not truly spiritual, and I doubt it "counts."

2) It does not sound like she is rejecting your religion (I do not think that would be a horrible thing because I believe people have the right to choose their own religion or none ---but I recognize to you this would be terrible.) So she is at least somewhat receptive to being "witnessed to." It is up to you to choose how to do this in a way that is respectful of her spiritual autonomy and agency so you do not poison it for her. That gives you an opportunity to be the best (sincerest and most respectful) Christian you can be.

3) She is clearly upset about certain aspects of her life, based on what you have said. This gives you the opportunity to help her with those things and make her a happier person. That might make her more receptive as her world would be better and maybe she would see that as more consistent with a universe created by a benevolent deity.

4) Maybe she should focus on her more worldly issues right now. She always has you to look at as a role model, so maybe quiet "witnessing" is the way to go right now.


Note: My quotation marks are not meant to be disrespectful, but mainly to note that I may or may not be using these religious-based words correctly.



cherrycoke
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2012
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 78

03 Sep 2012, 5:44 am

I pondered for a while whether I should comment on this. However, with recent remarks and tallyman' retraction, I feel compelled. It can't be allowed to continue being socially acceptable to come into an autism forum, insinuate we are godless for being autistic and expect respect to be shown towards religion.

Marms wrote:
And yes, it is due to her AS that she lacks empathy, therefore lacks the normal feeling one would have for a savior dying for our sins, which by the way, we all have.


So let me suggest an alternative, also unfounded theory based solely on pure ignorance too:

People that can empathize with jesus, a fictional character from a story as if he was real comes from a lack of mental ability, therefore lacks normal logical thought, which by the way, we all have.

I actually can't decide if what you say is genuine or your just trolling. To suggest everyone, and more specifically those of us with AS are atheists because of a disability is 10^∞ times more offensive than calling someones belief in a sky fairy as bul**hit, yet it is Tallyman retracting his words.



MMJMOM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 May 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 750

03 Sep 2012, 6:33 am

Aspinator wrote:
There are 20,000 some different religions in the world. If you ask the adherents of each one, they will tell you theirs is the only true way. Just because you were born in the West doesn't mean you should blindly accept Christianity; or from the East. become a Buddhist, or from the Arab world, become a Muslim. There are truths in every religion and everyone needs to accept for themselves what they are going/not going to believe.


Ditto!


_________________
Dara, mom to my beautiful kids:
J- 8, diagnosed Aspergers and ADHD possible learning disability due to porcessing speed, born with a cleft lip and palate.
M- 5
M-, who would be 6 1/2, my forever angel baby
E- 1 year old!! !


Mike_Garrick
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 4 Aug 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 254

03 Sep 2012, 7:34 am

Ignorant religious sheep.
I concur with Tallyman and cherrycoke, on this.
I sure as hell hope you never express that particular view with your daughter.

To tell your daughter who already struggles to even resemble a normal person that she is further inadequate for something so stupid.
To threaten her with eternal damnation if she doesn't conform to your every ideal.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.


Just because someone doesn't "feel" for a guy who by all ACTUAL evidence never existed.
Who supposedly died so that your oh so very "loving" "compassionate" god did not sentence every soul on this planet to eternal torture in the fiery pits of hell for the simple act of living.
The god that demands we worship him, and offer ourselves entirely to him or live in eternal agony.
The god that you speak to every night and never answers, who millions pray to save their dying loved ones and never answers, who allows people to live a life trapped in their bodies unable to move, die horrible painful and embarrassing deaths by cancer.
The god who's very name commands Genocides, Crusades, the murder and degradation of supposed "sinful" people.
Doesn't mean we are evil, misguided or even without empathy, it simple means we have a differing opinion then you because we look at it logically instead of like a blind sheep.



InThisTogether
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Jul 2012
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,709
Location: USA

03 Sep 2012, 8:13 am

I think we should all keep in mind that this is the "Parents Discussion" part of the forum.

This needs to be a safe place for parents to ask questions. Because if they don't ask them here, they might ask them somewhere else, where they will not have the benefit of autistic insight.

When I first came to autism (when my daughter was first diagnosed) I thought her only option was to sit in a corner with a helmet on her head, rocking. I was fearful that she would be unable to feel love or happiness. I was not trying to be ignorant or offensive; I was just horribly misinformed.

I was very lucky to have found a group of adult autistics on line (somewhere else) who very patiently answered my "stupid" and probably sometimes "offensive" questions. They nurtured me and understood that this was new to me and that I needed to learn.

When we use some of the language and phrasing that has been used here, directed toward this mom who is simply asking a question, we are the browbeaters. We are the people who talk down to and degrade another person because we perceive them to be ignorant. We believe our worldview to be of greater value, and therefore feel warranted in verbally lashing someone else into submission.

Let me ask two questions:

1) How is that possibly OK? If we are to rise up against the oppression we have felt, how is it possibly OK to behave in the exact same manner toward someone else?

2) How is that possibly going to help this woman gain the insight she needs to help her daughter?

If people are not visiting this forum to help, then I suggest you simply don't read it. I mean, I know I am new here. But I am not new to autism, nor am I new to how groups of autistics interact on the internet. Nor am I new to the concept that you are more likely to reach someone and help them change their mindset through kindness and patience and not insults, hatred, and mocking.

Consider me officially annoyed, something that does not happen very often.

Sorry for the ranting disruption. I just had to get it off my chest and I need to go now. Or I will continue to perseverate and this post will stretch to China.


_________________
Mom to 2 exceptional atypical kids
Long BAP lineage


Mike_Garrick
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 4 Aug 2012
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 254

03 Sep 2012, 8:42 am

Ok, then how about this.

Marms wrote:
due to her AS that she lacks empathy, therefore lacks the normal feeling one would have for a savior dying for our sins, which by the way, we all have.

Your daughter has enough problems in life without her own parents telling her she is an ugly person even in the eyes of her parents and god.
Enforcing that she is not only physically ugly, but ugly on the inside, in her core.
So broken that she can not even feel a love that should be as natural as breathing.

Words pierce so much deeper then anything physical ever could.



Mama_to_Grace
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Aug 2009
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 951

03 Sep 2012, 8:55 am

I, as one parent, don't at all mind the adult aspies' point of view that have posted here. I think it goes a very long way to describing their thought processes on trying to understand something which is basically impossible for anyone to understand. I do think it is a bit hypocritical to want their opinions all the time but be very upset when they touch the religion nerve. Their opinions are raw, and uncluttered by political correctness or social etiquette and I don't mind the bluntness of their answers, which in my opinion are as valid as everyone else's.