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iamnotaparakeet
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26 Oct 2010, 2:08 pm

adifferentname wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Pistonhead wrote:
Bitching about things on the internet falls into the wasting your time and accomplishing nothing category.


Isn't that the entire point of internet forums in general?


No, they just have a tendency to devolve from day one.


Is that really it or is it more likely that people just have a tendency to complain and internet forums serve this purpose extremely well? The notion of just civilly discussing ideas is an unachievable ideal, though it ought to be sought after even though it is impossible.



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26 Oct 2010, 2:08 pm

If you want to accomplish something you should sell all your possessions, start your own homeless and abuse victim shelter where you teach important skills needed for independent survival. Maybe if you're lucky someday someone will repay your good deeds, or not and you can just live the rest of your life knowing you made a difference and still be a broke ass mofo.

As for me I've already saved enough lives, in my eyes I've done what little good I needed to do for the world. More so than it deserved. I continue to support myself in finding my own happiness because very few people have any interest in helping me get there. I pass time on the internet and hope to maybe meet a few intelligent people.


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26 Oct 2010, 2:49 pm

AngelRho wrote:
And it doesn't sound like you really read much of what I wrote, only select bits and pieces of it to suggest that I was saying something that I didn't say.

I read all of it, I just ignored most of it because it was irrelevant rambling. (Same reason I only quoted a small portion of this post)

Quote:
Sadly, your attitude fits what I perceive to be the majority of those living away from the south. It's easy to point fingers and place blame when you aren't the one affected.

I live in Florida. I grew up in the Cincinnati area, which is basically Kentucky.

Quote:
Regarding black students and poorly-run schools: The problem I experienced while teaching was that administrators were only REALLY worried about their own paychecks.

OK. You're still missing the point: these schools suck. It is not the students' fault that they live in a crappy school district, but that abysmal educational system will deny them the opportunities they need to move up out of poverty.


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iamnotaparakeet
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26 Oct 2010, 4:00 pm

Orwell wrote:
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Regarding black students and poorly-run schools: The problem I experienced while teaching was that administrators were only REALLY worried about their own paychecks.

OK. You're still missing the point: these schools suck. It is not the students' fault that they live in a crappy school district, but that abysmal educational system will deny them the opportunities they need to move up out of poverty.


As long as the educational system is more concerned with meeting demographic criteria rather than educating their students this cannot change.



adifferentname
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26 Oct 2010, 4:04 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Pistonhead wrote:
Bitching about things on the internet falls into the wasting your time and accomplishing nothing category.


Isn't that the entire point of internet forums in general?


No, they just have a tendency to devolve from day one.


Is that really it or is it more likely that people just have a tendency to complain and internet forums serve this purpose extremely well? The notion of just civilly discussing ideas is an unachievable ideal, though it ought to be sought after even though it is impossible.


I don't believe it is impossible, just highly, highly unlikely.

That will never prevent me from trying though. We get as close as I've seen on these boards, though we clearly still have a long way to go.



sartresue
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26 Oct 2010, 6:11 pm

number5 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Why are black people so hated?

Well, I'm not a racist--let that be said!! !

I'm really not.

But ...


Here we go, a whole buch of racist crap is gonna follow. Sure enough, you didn't disappoint.

That's kind of like when someone says "no offense, but..." you know you're about to be completely insulted.


But-head topic

Cynical racism is still racism--individualized into examples, the BUTs I referred to in another related thread, then generalized into rationalizations. :roll:


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Orwell
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26 Oct 2010, 7:45 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Quote:
Regarding black students and poorly-run schools: The problem I experienced while teaching was that administrators were only REALLY worried about their own paychecks.

OK. You're still missing the point: these schools suck. It is not the students' fault that they live in a crappy school district, but that abysmal educational system will deny them the opportunities they need to move up out of poverty.


As long as the educational system is more concerned with meeting demographic criteria rather than educating their students this cannot change.

These are mostly public school districts we're talking about, so I have no idea what "demographic criteria" you imagine they're trying to meet. They take whoever lives in their zip code.


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iamnotaparakeet
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26 Oct 2010, 7:55 pm

Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Quote:
Regarding black students and poorly-run schools: The problem I experienced while teaching was that administrators were only REALLY worried about their own paychecks.

OK. You're still missing the point: these schools suck. It is not the students' fault that they live in a crappy school district, but that abysmal educational system will deny them the opportunities they need to move up out of poverty.


As long as the educational system is more concerned with meeting demographic criteria rather than educating their students this cannot change.

These are mostly public school districts we're talking about, so I have no idea what "demographic criteria" you imagine they're trying to meet. They take whoever lives in their zip code.


So many special ed students to qualify for this or that taxation benefit regardless of whether they belong there. So many of these people in this program, so many of those people in that program, etc. It's a number game for pencil pushers at a desk job.



AngelRho
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27 Oct 2010, 12:32 am

Orwell wrote:
AngelRho wrote:

Quote:
Sadly, your attitude fits what I perceive to be the majority of those living away from the south. It's easy to point fingers and place blame when you aren't the one affected.

I live in Florida. I grew up in the Cincinnati area, which is basically Kentucky.

Quote:
Regarding black students and poorly-run schools: The problem I experienced while teaching was that administrators were only REALLY worried about their own paychecks.

OK. You're still missing the point: these schools suck. It is not the students' fault that they live in a crappy school district, but that abysmal educational system will deny them the opportunities they need to move up out of poverty.


Which is exactly why you feel the way you do. You have no idea what it's really like here. And don't say you can because you live in Florida. Florida is just another Yankee state with a lot more beaches. The only thing that Florida has in common with where I live is a similarly abysmal housing market. Pretty soon they'll all be crack houses and meth labs, just you wait!

And given the hispanic population, it's not really part of the United States, anyway. More like a democratic version of Cuba. You know, like Taiwan and China.

And yes, in all seriousness, I KNOW these schools suck. I've taught in a couple of them. A friend of mine showed up one day to teach her "home ec" class. Her students were all ready for her arrival, and they all had eggs.

She didn't come back the next day.

So yeah, I know how horrible kids can be. I've been victim of student pranks myself, and I've just shaken them off and kept going. I've had to do the whole "tough guy" routine to get all the gang members off my case. It's not bad teaching to learn who to make friends with, and it's not bad teaching to understand and "teach to" the culture you're dealing with. That's psychology 101 and sociology 101. Being a white teacher and gaining the respect of "gangsta" mentality street creds is not easy, especially when your job is teaching them Music Appreciation and they get to listen to dead Europeans all hour. Good luck making that interesting. But we also had some fun along the way, and I've had kids come up to me in the years since saying how sorry they were for giving me a hard time. I just say, "hey, don't worry about it--YOU aren't the reason I left, and I had a good time there." Knuckleheads they may have been, but they were PEOPLE first and foremost. It's an honor to have been part of their lives.

So I agree with you: The schools CAN suck, and I understand that you can't blame the kids for that. But I've BEEN there, and I DO blame administrators, "guidance" counselors, certain teachers, and most CERTAINLY their parents for not opening the doors and showing them that there is life beyond this endless, flat, muddy hole. I also blame the kids for sitting in my classroom, listening to me describe the world "out there," and not caring enough to do a single thing about it. If this is all they want, FINE. Who am I to judge? But don't you DARE moan and groan about how this is all there ever will be. If you make the wrong decisions and end up paying for it for the rest of your life, don't you DARE blame THIS "white man" because I put my own blood, sweat, and tears into trying to help you get OUT.

Call me a racist if you want, sounds to me like some have already made up their minds. But know this: My work now is strictly one-on-one teaching, roughly half my students are minority, and my reputation has grown such that people will drive from as far as an hour away to take lessons from me. I love what I do and I love my students. And I will work with people regardless of skin color. But if you approach me with that kind of "you owe me" kind of negative attitude, I don't care what your skin color is, I don't need you, nor can I teach you. I can't help but notice that I don't get that attitude from white students or students from other minorities--in fact, I teach a pair of identical twins whose roots are in India, and they are a real joy to work with. What is really interesting to me is that you can always tell the difference between a black person who's been a lifelong resident and a Yankee with Delta roots. It so happens, not surprisingly, that my BEST student is a 3rd grader. Her family comes from the Chicago area, but decided they wanted to stay close to their cultural roots in Mississippi. These parents and the little girl are all business, all the time, and they'll take anything I can dish out, including my frequent temper tantrums. That's the kind of person who'll end up at Juilliard one day, and not because I'm a great teacher, but because they know how to overcome the negative cultural influences of the rural Mississippi Delta.

If racism still exists in the south, it has to do with the continued resentment and negative attitudes on the part of many blacks who live here and the reaction of whites to it. It has nothing to do with feelings of superiority or supremacy.

Someone else mentioned that it has nothing to do with geography. I wasn't trying to ignore inner city racial issues. Larger, metropolitan areas in the north seem to have similar problems as what I've been writing about, but I can't speak on inner-city problems from experience. The inner-city mentality is glamorized among the youth where I live, and their reality is NOTHING like the inner-cities. I think that's probably more a product of watching too much MTV or something, but I honestly can't tell you because I don't know that first hand. From working with young people, I found that their artistic and cultural vision was appallingly myopic, whereas caucasians tend to have a wider diversity of tastes and influences. I'm not saying that it's a good/bad thing, but it's just an observation. The parallels between rural blacks who only THINK they are inner-city and what we tend to expect from inner-cities is astounding, and the realities are that their lives are WORLDS apart. I did get SOME exposure to the inner-city, gangland mentality during hurricane Katrina because so many New Orleans and Gulf Coast expats enrolled at my school and ended up in my classroom. What I found was that they often tended to look down on their classmates, as though they really were inferior or something, all the while just barely tolerating "that white music teacher." So, from what I observed, there IS a wide difference between urban and rural culture. The resentment, though, seems to be a commonality between the two, even if it is expressed differently.

And I think that may also play a part in Northern misperception of apparent southern racist attitudes. Northern blacks appear to be concentrated in urban centers, while MOST whites are concentrated more suburban and rural areas. I would dare say, actually, that many Yankee whites are shielded from the same resentful attitudes that we southerners get all the time. Because you tend to be thus sheltered, it's much easier to point to the south and say we're "rife with racism." You wouldn't accuse us all of being bigots if you were confronted with the same cultural barriers. Of that I'm sure.

Regarding Teach for America: I see those TA kids all the time, and I think they are snobby, rude and condescending to locals. Someone should teach them some manners.

But in all seriousness, my only criticism is they rotate in and out of rural schools so fast that they don't really build any real lasting connection with the students and parents, much less the community at large. I think that is so important for teachers to do, and TA doesn't really accomplish that in any meaningful way. Those TA kids (and they ARE kids) don't really leave here any different than they came in, and that's a shame I think. I've worked with one or two at the local community theater, and they seemed really ambitious and ideological. I just hope they are sincere about their ambitions, that they hang on to their ideals, and that they don't burn out.



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27 Oct 2010, 12:38 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Another key factor is the areas in which these people come from. They are not born with the same advantages and often become stuck.


What advantages are those? I'm white and I wasn't born into wealth and neither were most people that I've ever known born into wealth nor had advantages from birth.


this shows that the meta-issue is more about socioeconomic class, and less about race per se. people in the lower class need to band together as a united front and not be so insipidly contentious.



Last edited by auntblabby on 27 Oct 2010, 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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27 Oct 2010, 12:40 am

To take a time out here for a second, what purpose does is it serving to shout "racist!" at people who are here trying to explain their thoughts and feelings and the reasons behind them? Is that making the world, the internet, or even just this site a better place? I understand the idea behind shaming and social conditioning and such, but this isn't the place for it, this is a forum for DISCUSSING ideas, whether or not we find some of them personally offensive we should at least be able to TALK about them in a civil manner. I'll be the first to admit to not always being perfect in this respect, but at least I'm making the effort.


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27 Oct 2010, 12:41 am

Now the question is how do you get into a socioeconomic class? Is there some variable like possibly race that determines likelihood of acquiring social and financial status?


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27 Oct 2010, 12:45 am

Pistonhead wrote:
Now the question is how do you get into a socioeconomic class? Is there some variable like possibly race that determines likelihood of acquiring social and financial status?


strictly the luck of the draw. you need to get the right genes, the right timing, the right place, the right family. it ALL has to gell from the get go, or else it's just zip.



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27 Oct 2010, 12:50 am

No so sure about that personally, at the top of the socio-economic ladder in America I can't name anyone who is black, unless you think NFL/NBA players are up there with Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc.


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27 Oct 2010, 12:56 am

Pistonhead wrote:
No so sure about that personally, at the top of the socio-economic ladder in America I can't name anyone who is black, unless you think NFL/NBA players are up there with Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc.


if one includes mere millionaires as being at the top, then what about condi rice? colin powell? chris rock? denzel washington? bill cosby? oprah? the president? too too too many of 'em to list here. just my 2-cents' worth.



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27 Oct 2010, 1:06 am

Okay agreed, there are some very talented actors and a talk show host along with members of the cabinet in the multi-million dollar arena but we could probably add up Tom Cruise, Johnny Depp, Ellen Degeneres and all the white stars in their class and we'd probably have a shocking white to black ratio.


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