Muslim families in Winnipeg want children excused from

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Tory_canuck
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07 Feb 2011, 11:48 pm

If.muslims can opt out of PE, how come those with autism can't? There have been threads here in the past about how many on thd spectrum must endure the ridicule and bullying in PE just so they can graduate but someone can yell Allah Akbhar and get a free pass. If an autistic person can't opt out then why should the muslim? At least the muslim can have an all male or female class to accomodate if they can't opt out....there are no provisions for those on the spectrum.....If a muslim gets bullied everyone rallies behind them but if an autistic is mistreated, nobody bats an eye or cares.
Either they make it an option for everyone regardless if you are muslim, hindu, autistic, nt, or whatever else or make it mandatory for everyone


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07 Feb 2011, 11:53 pm

Tory_canuck wrote:
If.muslims can opt out of PE, how come those with autism can't? There have been threads here in the past about how many on thd spectrum must endure the ridicule and bullying in PE just so they can graduate but someone can yell Allah Akbhar and get a free pass. If an autistic person can't opt out then why should the muslim? At least the muslim can have an all male or female class to accomodate if they can't opt out....there are no provisions for those on the spectrum.....If a muslim gets bullied everyone rallies behind them but if an autistic is mistreated, nobody bats an eye or cares.
Either they make it an option for everyone regardless if you are muslim, hindu, autistic, nt, or whatever else or make it mandatory for everyone


Autism is now a religion?

Muslims (with or with out the Allah Akbhar 'yell') have mores in their religion, Jehovah's Witnesses have somewhat the same mores and practices as Muslims. Try living around Mormons and you will see they have somewhat the same cultural conventions. Do you have those documented practices in your religion or beliefs? Then perhaps you qualify for an opt out of PE.

But being Autistic is not a religion/belief system.


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07 Feb 2011, 11:56 pm

murphycop wrote:
Mindslave wrote:
Why do you always have to troll around here?


Somehow if you have some right wing views you're a troll?

I know radical right wingers look ridiculously stupid, but (name removed (ljo)) radical left wingers, look just as stupid, but they're too hypocritical to see it. When we live in a country where you can only have freedom of expression and speech if you're a "minority", its gets very frustrating. The left wing goverment had their 13 years, it was a complete disaster, they need to swallow their pride.


what country are you nattering on about? Why are you talking about religion of the people you are not appreciative of and then talk about politics? What is it, religion or politics?


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08 Feb 2011, 12:58 am

sinsboldly wrote:
But being Autistic is not a religion/belief system.


That's right, it's not. It's something you're born with, part of your physiology like having two feet and not something you chose or could have chosen. People can change religion or choose a religion if they are free to do so and thus perhaps religion should not be afforded the same protections against debate and criticism or other accommodation beyond those which we afford to race or disability or sexual orientation.

For example, you don't get to opt out of gym class just because you're white or black or whatever. Likewise, nobody is allowed to cut your head off or burn you at the stake just because you pointed out some inconsistencies or inadequacies in someone's religion.


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08 Feb 2011, 6:02 am

murphycop wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Its not about forcing them, its about them forcing us to change things for us. If they don't like the way things are, they have the "freedom of choice" to go somewhere else.


And again, these people are not forcing anyone to do anything. They simply do not want their children to attend certain lessons. Lessons that are COMPULSORY. Who exactly is forcing whom?
Why exactly are children FORCED to study music or PE? Especially music.


I don't know, why are children FORCED to study English, maybe the Muslims kids shouldn't have to do that? Maybe everyone should choose what they want to study, and when they want to go to school.

I know its a big difference between this and the fact Muslims want our culture to suit them, but thanks to certain people, its happening. I wonder what tourists think when they arrive in London, they must wonder if they're in the right country.


English is a communication tool. We learn it so that we can communicate more effectively with one another. That is the perfectly good reason why it is compulsory. PE (in theory) builds physical fitness and encourages team-work. THAT is fairly understandable as a compulsory lesson, because a reasonable standard of fitness helps us to stay alive and not be grotesque lardies....but then these people didn't say they wouldn't let their kids do PE..they just aren't comfortable with MIXED PE lessons. After a certain level, our PE lessons stopped being mixed a great deal anyway and we never had "mixed" changing facilities, not since little school, so I can't see how it is that big of a jump. IT IS NOT A BIG DEAL so get off your right-wing hobby horse.

Knock it off with the reductio absurdum. Music lessons being optional is NOT the same as letting kids choose when they want to go to school.


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08 Feb 2011, 6:29 am

Tory_canuck wrote:
If.muslims can opt out of PE, how come those with autism can't? There have been threads here in the past about how many on thd spectrum must endure the ridicule and bullying in PE just so they can graduate but someone can yell Allah Akbhar and get a free pass. If an autistic person can't opt out then why should the muslim? At least the muslim can have an all male or female class to accomodate if they can't opt out....there are no provisions for those on the spectrum.....If a muslim gets bullied everyone rallies behind them but if an autistic is mistreated, nobody bats an eye or cares.
Either they make it an option for everyone regardless if you are muslim, hindu, autistic, nt, or whatever else or make it mandatory for everyone


1) Muslims are not simply crying Allah Akbar to get out of lessons. They do have to provably BE Muslims. There is a little more to it than speaking in foreign tongues.

2) They aren't dodging PE because they get ridiculed or because its hard. They aren't dodging it at all. They are asking for un-mixed lessons. The UK used to have WHOLE SCHOOLS dedicated to one gender or the other. Mixing them up appears to have made no difference to the nature of their learning.

3) Again, it isn't about bullying. It's about modesty and the mixing of genders. Islam requires a degree more physical modesty than modern-day western civilisation generally expects. This DOES have a parallel with the uber-shy and private autistic kids not wanting to get undressed in front of others. But in that area we should be in agreement, not getting mardy about it. Neither autistic nor Muslim wants to compromise their modesty. That is A SIMILARITY not a difference. And its not like Muslims are actually GETTING this special treatment, because if they were, they wouldn't still be asking for it.

4) PE and physical fitness affects you whether you like it or not. Maybe if more Autistics were on the rugby team, they wouldn't GET beaten up? By avoiding PE you end up a scrawny little stringbag who is even more of a target. My own son gets treated with kid gloves by his school because he's on the spectrum, and physically he's a pathetic individual with poor health. I didn't enjoy PE either, but I'm a much healthier individual for doing it, and substantially more able to perform physical tasks and protect myself.

5) Hindus find the Cow sacred. Should they be forced to eat beef when it is on the school menu, because everyone else is eating it? Muslims consider Pork tainted, should we force them to eat sausages when they appear on the menu? I seem to recall that there was a whole mutiny in India caused in part by attempts to force people to do things they considered unseemly by their religion. Or maybe we should MAKE vegetarians eat BOTH meats because dammit everyone else has to eat their veg?

These requests: Single sex PE lessons and an option to ignore Music lessons are not collapsing our society, they are not an attack on our way of live, or an erosion of our culture or any of the other ridiculous rubbish people spout. It is not the unstoppable tide of Islam. It is no more than a slight adjustment in timetabling. Its also ridiculous that a forum of people who spend most of their time demanding understanding because of their neurology should be so ignorant about understanding others. But then that appears to be a common failing in the autistic community.


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08 Feb 2011, 6:41 am

sgrannel wrote:
I never had a problem with participating in Phys. Ed. and usually I could perform various exercises at least as well as the average student. Changing in the locker room is what I hated. I didn't like being naked or near naked around any of the other students.

Oh noooooo! Gym and music involve being around girls! Girls without covering so you can see their hair! Just like spiderwebs! And the kids might take a liking to something else besides that blaring call-to-prayer! OOOOOOooooooooo spooky! (sarcasm)


Islam does not forbid music. And who mentioned that music lessons involve girls? Wanting to be out of Music lessons has nothing to do with girls. LOTS of lessons involve girls and nobody mentioned those. The lesson they DID mention that involves girls was the one that involves wearing less clothing around the opposite sex. Hmm, maybe if PE lessons didn't involve pubescent boys chasing around after pubescent young women in gym clothes there might be a bit more learning going on? I know I wasn't paying much attention to my teachers when the Hockey class jiggled past. There is also something to be said for a degree more modesty in general. Maybe then our town-centres wouldn't be full of turkey-flesh balancing on stilts in a belt and nothing else every Saturday if people thought a little more modestly. Hell, some of my favourite garments involve almost no skin on show at all!.

So what if Muslims find most western music unacceptable? There is a crap-load of western music that westerners find unacceptable. There is a load more that Christians find unacceptable for almost exactly the same reasons. There is certainly plenty I find nauseating.

Oh, and the Muezzin and other similar eastern musical forms have been very successfully mixed into several tracks to great effect. I can think of one track by one of my favourite bands that uses it wonderfully as a counter-point to an outstanding bass-line. As I said, Music is not forbidden in Islam, and those who say it is haven't read the rules properly, which is the root cause of a great deal of the problem.


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08 Feb 2011, 7:14 am

Tory_canuck wrote:
http://www.nationalpost.com/m/blog.html?b=life.nationalpost.com/2011/02/05/muslim-families-in-winnipeg-want-children-excused-from-certain-classes&s=Opinion




Looks like there is a way for autistics to opt out of phys ed if they are forced to participate despite disability........CONVERT TO ISLAM.


Better still, convert public schooling to private schooling.

ruveyn



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08 Feb 2011, 1:10 pm

murphycop wrote:
Its not about forcing them, its about them forcing us to change things for us. If they don't like the way things are, they have the "freedom of choice" to go somewhere else.


But they are forcing nothing upon the school board. They are not waging a campaign to have physical education cancelled, merely to excuse their children from it.

Who is in charge of a child's education, the child's parents or the government? At the end of the day, in this country, in the United States and in Britain it is the parents. And rightly so.


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09 Feb 2011, 12:31 pm

sinsboldly wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Its not about forcing them, its about them forcing us to change things for us. If they don't like the way things are, they have the "freedom of choice" to go somewhere else.


And again, these people are not forcing anyone to do anything. They simply do not want their children to attend certain lessons. Lessons that are COMPULSORY. Who exactly is forcing whom?
Why exactly are children FORCED to study music or PE? Especially music.


I don't know, why are children FORCED to study English, maybe the Muslims kids shouldn't have to do that? Maybe everyone should choose what they want to study, and when they want to go to school.

I know its a big difference between this and the fact Muslims want our culture to suit them, but thanks to certain people, its happening. I wonder what tourists think when they arrive in London, they must wonder if they're in the right country.


oh, so you are suggesting before THEY came there was a presumed purity of your culture. You are fearful of losing cultural identity, and desire to eliminate the presence of the 'other' by having them assimilate into what you perceive as 'normal' without examining your actual cultural make up to discover how people thought that about your kind before people you now approve of became the political, economic, ideological or cultural power where you are.

We have pockets of people with your attitude in the States, too.


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09 Feb 2011, 12:37 pm

sinsboldly wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Mindslave wrote:
Why do you always have to troll around here?


Somehow if you have some right wing views you're a troll?

I know radical right wingers look ridiculously stupid, but (name removed (ljo)) radical left wingers, look just as stupid, but they're too hypocritical to see it. When we live in a country where you can only have freedom of expression and speech if you're a "minority", its gets very frustrating. The left wing goverment had their 13 years, it was a complete disaster, they need to swallow their pride.


what country are you nattering on about? Why are you talking about religion of the people you are not appreciative of and then talk about politics? What is it, religion or politics?


Religion turns into politics when Islam protesters are holding signs saying "British soldiers burn in hell" and "massacre those who insult Muslim". And its labelled their right, as its their freedom of expression, but if it was the other way round, it would be unnaceptable.


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09 Feb 2011, 12:41 pm

murphycop wrote:
sinsboldly wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Its not about forcing them, its about them forcing us to change things for us. If they don't like the way things are, they have the "freedom of choice" to go somewhere else.


And again, these people are not forcing anyone to do anything. They simply do not want their children to attend certain lessons. Lessons that are COMPULSORY. Who exactly is forcing whom?
Why exactly are children FORCED to study music or PE? Especially music.


I don't know, why are children FORCED to study English, maybe the Muslims kids shouldn't have to do that? Maybe everyone should choose what they want to study, and when they want to go to school.

I know its a big difference between this and the fact Muslims want our culture to suit them, but thanks to certain people, its happening. I wonder what tourists think when they arrive in London, they must wonder if they're in the right country.


oh, so you are suggesting before THEY came there was a presumed purity of your culture. You are fearful of losing cultural identity, and desire to eliminate the presence of the 'other' by having them assimilate into what you perceive as 'normal' without examining your actual cultural make up to discover how people thought that about your kind before people you now approve of became the political, economic, ideological or cultural power where you are.

We have pockets of people with your attitude in the States, too.


WrongPlanet Rules

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2. Personal attacks.
This includes insinuation, ridicule and personal insults, regardless of whether direct or indirect. Attacking an opinion, belief or philosophy is acceptable, but attacking the person making the comments is not.


Pointing out that you have a "kind" is a personal attack? I thought you were all about "your people" and how their culture is being destroyed by the evil Muslim hordes? Surely you WANT to be associated with unsullied White Christian Anglo-Saxon culture and all its purity? They are YOUR FOLK. Where is your solidarity?


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09 Feb 2011, 12:43 pm

murphycop wrote:
Religion turns into politics when Islam protesters are holding signs saying "British soldiers burn in hell" and "massacre those who insult Muslim". And its labelled their right, as its their freedom of expression, but if it was the other way round, it would be unnaceptable.

Agreed.


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09 Feb 2011, 12:46 pm

Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Its not about forcing them, its about them forcing us to change things for us. If they don't like the way things are, they have the "freedom of choice" to go somewhere else.


And again, these people are not forcing anyone to do anything. They simply do not want their children to attend certain lessons. Lessons that are COMPULSORY. Who exactly is forcing whom?
Why exactly are children FORCED to study music or PE? Especially music.


I don't know, why are children FORCED to study English, maybe the Muslims kids shouldn't have to do that? Maybe everyone should choose what they want to study, and when they want to go to school.

I know its a big difference between this and the fact Muslims want our culture to suit them, but thanks to certain people, its happening. I wonder what tourists think when they arrive in London, they must wonder if they're in the right country.


English is a communication tool. We learn it so that we can communicate more effectively with one another. That is the perfectly good reason why it is compulsory. PE (in theory) builds physical fitness and encourages team-work. THAT is fairly understandable as a compulsory lesson, because a reasonable standard of fitness helps us to stay alive and not be grotesque lardies....but then these people didn't say they wouldn't let their kids do PE..they just aren't comfortable with MIXED PE lessons. After a certain level, our PE lessons stopped being mixed a great deal anyway and we never had "mixed" changing facilities, not since little school, so I can't see how it is that big of a jump. IT IS NOT A BIG DEAL so get off your right-wing hobby horse.

Knock it off with the reductio absurdum. Music lessons being optional is NOT the same as letting kids choose when they want to go to school.


So why did an English guy get rejected from a job, because he couldn't speak Polish? Mixed lessons, whats wrong with that, what happened to equality? I guess people just play the equality card when it suits. Well get off your hypocrisy horse, mixed changing facilities and mixed PE lessons, are two complete different things. All this left wing hypocrisy and double standards, then making out right wing always means bad, reminds me of a quote.

"Many of us believe that wrongs aren't wrong if it's done by nice people like ourselves."


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09 Feb 2011, 12:48 pm

visagrunt wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Its not about forcing them, its about them forcing us to change things for us. If they don't like the way things are, they have the "freedom of choice" to go somewhere else.


But they are forcing nothing upon the school board. They are not waging a campaign to have physical education cancelled, merely to excuse their children from it.

Who is in charge of a child's education, the child's parents or the government? At the end of the day, in this country, in the United States and in Britain it is the parents. And rightly so.


Yet the goverment is in charge of their cash flow in a lot of cases.


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