Muslim families in Winnipeg want children excused from

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Fuzzy
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10 Feb 2011, 1:43 am

The request to get out of PE/music is an exclusion not an intrusion. It would be as if that person were simply not in that class, not attending school(during that short time).

This ironically should be pleasing to murphycop, but somehow its not. For a guy who doesnt want them in his country at all, hes sure determined to force them to be inclusive.


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ruveyn
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10 Feb 2011, 5:46 am

LKL wrote:
one of the main points of the establishment of public schools was to give all of the kids a common background and mutual understanding.


Yup. Your government and mine hammering square pegs into round holes.

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10 Feb 2011, 5:51 am

murphycop wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Sorry, I can't keep reading through your endless irrelevant paragraphs, and correcting you.

Actually, I probably didn't make it clear enough when I said "its a religious thing". I was meaning any religion, people shouldn't have to tip toe around anyone, cause of religion. This is getting like the other thread, we're both writing 3 times as much as we should have to, due to lack of understanding and going off track.


Everything I posted is completely relevant to the subject in hand. Unlike your attempts to make a local school matter into part of a uniliateral destruction of "your" Culture, or waffling about Poles and Equality in a desperate attempt to try and make it look like you have a point. Clearly you do about as much research into your position and beliefs as the Mail.

If White Christian Culture involves such staggering ignorance as you display, then I don't particularly want it to be the dominant one. The kind of "culture" that the BNP and EDL hold up as being the "right one" is nothing but a shallow imitation of a much more unified right-wing "paradise" that also sucked.


Lol. I do have a point, and I get to it. I don't fly off topic with an essay of irrelevance every time I post. I've stated my point already. Life's too short to wait for yours.

Our country is in a bigger mess than it has ever been, I wonder if 13 long years of Labour had much to do with this. Its quite unbelieveable for a left wing person not to have some shame after the mess your party caused. There you go again with your cloned views "BNP, EDL, Mail". Some of my views are very right wing, and some are left wing. I have obviously obtained mine from common sense and experience. Freedom of expression and speech should apply to everyone. Criminals shouldn't have more rights than victims. Its very simple, and its something you can't get to grips with.


You want irrelevant? Why have you dragged a discussion about Canadian Muslims and School into such areas as British Criminal Justice and Freedom of Expression and Speech?

Bit rich give you apparently wish to deny parents the right to determine what their children are taught. Are we then to believe that if these were any other parents and the subjects they disagreed with were say, a lesson in holocaust denial, that you expect them to just sit quietly and take it? A parent has a right to disagree with what a school is teaching their child.

And still you think I'm left wing based on your own prejudices. Ridiculous.


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ruveyn
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10 Feb 2011, 5:55 am

Macbeth wrote:

Bit rich give you apparently wish to deny parents the right to determine what their children are taught. Are we then to believe that if these were any other parents and the subjects they disagreed with were say, a lesson in holocaust denial, that you expect them to just sit quietly and take it? A parent has a right to disagree with what a school is teaching their child.

.


Psssst. Privatize schooling and the problem is solved.

ruveyn



Last edited by ruveyn on 10 Feb 2011, 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Feb 2011, 5:56 am

leejosepho wrote:
Note to all: I have moved this thread to PPR because of how it has evolved, and it will now either return to civility and remain there or be locked.


You're going to have to clarify how you came to that decision? It's still a thread about a recent news article. A lot of news articles are quite political in nature (or religious), so why exactly move this one?

I also can't help but think that putting it in PPR, notorious for the heated nature of its debates, is hardly likely to make it a more calm or civil discussion.


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10 Feb 2011, 6:05 am

Vigilans wrote:
I think this ought to serve as a precedent for people of any group who want to opt out of music or phys ed. They specifically stated they wanted to do an equivalent writing course. If they have intent to do something creative, why does it have to be music? I hated elementary school music. Surprisingly now I am a musician. I would have honestly preferred writing to sitting around playing recorder and getting B****ed at for not caring. Its kind of unfortunate that it had to be a few Muslims in Canada bringing this issue up because its bound to make the issue seem racially charged. And as for school phys ed I didn't care much for that either. There should be another option. I definitely don't see this as equivalent to Muslims wanting to practice Sharia in Canada. That controversy is not as widespread as some would like it to seem. I have a feeling only a few hundred Muslims in the entire country actually want this and there are probably half of a million Muslims here by now, they are not a threat to our country...


Seems to be the case whenever a Muslim mentions anything they take issue with, regardless of what about, that a certain section of society immediately declares that such a complaint is the end of civilised western culture and an attempt to Islamify whatever western nation it occurs in. Then all the trite mythology comes out...like "It must be because Islam forbids music." even though it plainly does not.

You're right about the Music lessons as well. They mostly produce terrible recorder music and little else.. all the students with a genuine interest in music tend to pursue the matter independent of lessons, joining the school band etc. PE I do tend to think has its benefits, if it is taught well, so is better suited to a "compulsory" position, but as with all things, unless we reside in a fascist state, nobody should be forced to do anything regardless of problems and issues.


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10 Feb 2011, 6:50 am

ruveyn wrote:
Macbeth wrote:

Bit rich give you apparently wish to deny parents the right to determine what their children are taught. Are we then to believe that if these were any other parents and the subjects they disagreed with were say, a lesson in holocaust denial, that you expect them to just sit quietly and take it? A parent has a right to disagree with what a school is teaching their child.

.


Psssst. Privatize schooling and the problem is solved.

ruveyn


Creates new problems involving cost and exclusivity, but its true that Private schools tend to be a little more receptive to parental requests. Probably because those parents are paying, and when people shell out large amounts of cash, they expect good service regardless of who provides it and for what.

"Compulsory lessons" and what those lessons should be aren't even a contiguous feature of western schooling. US schools require pupils to do different things than Canadian or British ones, and that varies even between states/counties. Given that lessons in things that you have to know to stay alive are not actually compulsory, I'm not sure why music is so vital in Winterpeg.


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10 Feb 2011, 8:29 am

Macbeth wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Note to all: I have moved this thread to PPR because of how it has evolved, and it will now either return to civility and remain there or be locked.


You're going to have to clarify how you came to that decision? It's still a thread about a recent news article. A lot of news articles are quite political in nature (or religious), so why exactly move this one?

Because its temperature had risen to the point of discussions occasionally found typical of "PPR, notorious for the heated nature of its debates" (see next).

Macbeth wrote:
I also can't help but think that putting it in PPR, notorious for the heated nature of its debates, is hardly likely to make it a more calm or civil discussion.

Possibly so, and so that means everyone can now carry on as they were, minus direct personal attacks, right here while things remain a bit cooler out on the remainder of the forum.


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10 Feb 2011, 9:42 am

leejosepho wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Note to all: I have moved this thread to PPR because of how it has evolved, and it will now either return to civility and remain there or be locked.


You're going to have to clarify how you came to that decision? It's still a thread about a recent news article. A lot of news articles are quite political in nature (or religious), so why exactly move this one?

Because its temperature had risen to the point of discussions occasionally found typical of "PPR, notorious for the heated nature of its debates" (see next).

Macbeth wrote:
I also can't help but think that putting it in PPR, notorious for the heated nature of its debates, is hardly likely to make it a more calm or civil discussion.

Possibly so, and so that means everyone can now carry on as they were, minus direct personal attacks, right here while things remain a bit cooler out on the remainder of the forum.


Interesting philosophy. Do you have a threshold for how heated a disagreement must be before it ends up in PPR? Or does it just have to be heated and Politics or Religion related? Should we look forward to angry debates from.. I dunno, the parents forum or the haven to pick at random, appearing in PPR?


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leejosepho
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10 Feb 2011, 9:47 am

Macbeth wrote:
Interesting philosophy. Do you have a threshold for how heated a disagreement must be before it ends up in PPR?

Probably about where this one was at the time.

Macbeth wrote:
Or does it just have to be heated and Politics or Religion related? (emphasis added)

The nature of the topic simply made its new location easy to select.

Macbeth wrote:
Should we look forward to angry debates from.. I dunno, the parents forum or the haven to pick at random, appearing in PPR?

PPR is certainly not going to become a dumping site, if that is what you mean.

In complete candor, at least in this particular case: I have attempted to use a velvet touch to help assure everyone of a place to discuss whatever they wish in just about any manner they wish without simultaneously making others with higher sensitivities uncomfortable.


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10 Feb 2011, 9:51 am

LKL wrote:
one of the main points of the establishment of public schools was to give all of the kids a common background and mutual understanding.


It may have been part of the rationale - I will not speak to what may be the main points today.

But - I can stand and testify - and bring in witnesses - to attest that American [I should speak for other countries?] education, public or private makes no never mind, MAY give some shared skills and undeniably gives SOME shared experience, but that this does NOT constitute a common background [unless they are institutionalized from birth] and most certainly does not bring about mutual understanding.

I [and others report the same] have found more mutual understanding with people of vastly different nationality and educational background than from my compatriots and classmates.



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10 Feb 2011, 10:10 am

leejosepho wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
Interesting philosophy. Do you have a threshold for how heated a disagreement must be before it ends up in PPR?

Probably about where this one was at the time.

Macbeth wrote:
Or does it just have to be heated and Politics or Religion related? (emphasis added)

The nature of the topic simply made its new location easy to select.

Macbeth wrote:
Should we look forward to angry debates from.. I dunno, the parents forum or the haven to pick at random, appearing in PPR?

PPR is certainly not going to become a dumping site, if that is what you mean.

In complete candor, at least in this particular case: I have attempted to use a velvet touch to help assure everyone of a place to discuss whatever they wish in just about any manner they wish without simultaneously making others with higher sensitivities uncomfortable.


All good then. Nice that you informed in private as well. In recent years Mods were given to making random decisions with nary an explanation or a notification. Nice to see a bit of communication. (Not all Mods I hasten to add.)

Though thinking on it, have a care that you don't confuse example and digressions with wholesale subject changes.


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leejosepho
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10 Feb 2011, 10:15 am

Macbeth wrote:
... have a care that you don't confuse example and digressions with wholesale subject changes.

Understood, and I thank you for your understanding here.


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10 Feb 2011, 3:05 pm

Philologos wrote:
LKL wrote:
one of the main points of the establishment of public schools was to give all of the kids a common background and mutual understanding.


It may have been part of the rationale - I will not speak to what may be the main points today.

But - I can stand and testify - and bring in witnesses - to attest that American [I should speak for other countries?] education, public or private makes no never mind, MAY give some shared skills and undeniably gives SOME shared experience, but that this does NOT constitute a common background [unless they are institutionalized from birth] and most certainly does not bring about mutual understanding.

I [and others report the same] have found more mutual understanding with people of vastly different nationality and educational background than from my compatriots and classmates.


I was conflating 'common background' with 'shared experience.' I accept your distinction.



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10 Feb 2011, 5:41 pm

I have some concern with the complete privatisation of primary and secondary education.

One of the core responsibilties of government is to ensure that there is a system, free at the point of service delivery, for the primary and secondary education of all people. This is one of those select areas where there is a clear benefit to all of us, but it is in no one's direct commercial interest to provide it.

So even if we eliminate all public schools, the public will still be paying for the provision of education through private service providers (much as medical care is currently provided in Canada). I am not certain that such a system will be sustainable, will provide sufficient assurance of quality, or provide responsiveness and accountability to parents.


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