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Vigilans
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10 Feb 2011, 5:48 pm

visagrunt wrote:
I have some concern with the complete privatisation of primary and secondary education.

One of the core responsibilties of government is to ensure that there is a system, free at the point of service delivery, for the primary and secondary education of all people. This is one of those select areas where there is a clear benefit to all of us, but it is in no one's direct commercial interest to provide it.

So even if we eliminate all public schools, the public will still be paying for the provision of education through private service providers (much as medical care is currently provided in Canada). I am not certain that such a system will be sustainable, will provide sufficient assurance of quality, or provide responsiveness and accountability to parents.


I agree. I think the system in place right now of having private schools available to those interested is much better. There are a lot of problems with public education but at least you can be certain that the goal of public education is to educate and not to simply make a profit at the expense of learning. Private school teachers are often unwilling to report serious problems with students to parents because they are interested in continuing the flow of money from said parents. A few of my friends have gone through private school and this is often the case


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10 Feb 2011, 8:14 pm

Fuzzy wrote:
The request to get out of PE/music is an exclusion not an intrusion. It would be as if that person were simply not in that class, not attending school(during that short time).

This ironically should be pleasing to murphycop, but somehow its not. For a guy who doesnt want them in his country at all, hes sure determined to force them to be inclusive.


Fuzzy! Maybe go back and read my posts. I didn't say they should be forced. What other reasons, as well as religion could you use to get out of classes?


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murphycop
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10 Feb 2011, 8:17 pm

Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Sorry, I can't keep reading through your endless irrelevant paragraphs, and correcting you.

Actually, I probably didn't make it clear enough when I said "its a religious thing". I was meaning any religion, people shouldn't have to tip toe around anyone, cause of religion. This is getting like the other thread, we're both writing 3 times as much as we should have to, due to lack of understanding and going off track.


Everything I posted is completely relevant to the subject in hand. Unlike your attempts to make a local school matter into part of a uniliateral destruction of "your" Culture, or waffling about Poles and Equality in a desperate attempt to try and make it look like you have a point. Clearly you do about as much research into your position and beliefs as the Mail.

If White Christian Culture involves such staggering ignorance as you display, then I don't particularly want it to be the dominant one. The kind of "culture" that the BNP and EDL hold up as being the "right one" is nothing but a shallow imitation of a much more unified right-wing "paradise" that also sucked.


Lol. I do have a point, and I get to it. I don't fly off topic with an essay of irrelevance every time I post. I've stated my point already. Life's too short to wait for yours.

Our country is in a bigger mess than it has ever been, I wonder if 13 long years of Labour had much to do with this. Its quite unbelieveable for a left wing person not to have some shame after the mess your party caused. There you go again with your cloned views "BNP, EDL, Mail". Some of my views are very right wing, and some are left wing. I have obviously obtained mine from common sense and experience. Freedom of expression and speech should apply to everyone. Criminals shouldn't have more rights than victims. Its very simple, and its something you can't get to grips with.


You want irrelevant? Why have you dragged a discussion about Canadian Muslims and School into such areas as British Criminal Justice and Freedom of Expression and Speech?

Bit rich give you apparently wish to deny parents the right to determine what their children are taught. Are we then to believe that if these were any other parents and the subjects they disagreed with were say, a lesson in holocaust denial, that you expect them to just sit quietly and take it? A parent has a right to disagree with what a school is teaching their child.

And still you think I'm left wing based on your own prejudices. Ridiculous.


I think you'll find you were the one who immediately changed the subject.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt151175.html

I hope you have a bit of humility and admit this.


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JNathanK
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11 Feb 2011, 3:44 am

Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Its about time they adapt to our culture, or they know where the door is.


There were Jehovahs Witness kids at our school who were excused School Assembly because there would be hymns sung. Nobody got bent out of shape about that. Well, some of us kids did, but only because we wanted out of the dullness as well. Then we found out they don't get Christmas and forgave them.

Honestly, why does anyone give a crap whether Muslim kids do PE or Music? So they'll grow up slightly less athletic, and not be able to play the oboe badly. Why does that matter at all? Are they calling for a total ban on music in Winterpeg? No. So where is the problem?


Its not about the music. They want their own laws in our countries. Wasn't there a demonstration about that in London on saturday? Lets stone women to death, we love being multi-cultural after all. If any religious person is going to a normal school, they should do what everyone else has to do. I thought it was all about equality nowdays!?


No they don't. Where does it say that? It makes NO DIFFERENCE if Muslim kids do PE or not to anyone but themselves. It harms no-one, and they are not forcing anyone else to stop doing mixed lessons. Plenty of parents don't like their children attending various kinds of lessons because they don't agree with what is taught. I don't agree with pro-EU propaganda being taught to my children in school? Should I be thrown out if I don't "integrate"? Its one HELL of a jump from "I'm not comfortable with my son/daughter doing PE with members of the opposite sex." to "I demand the right to beat my women with rocks." As for "They should do what everyone else has to do.." How many people anywhere want to do exactly what everyone else has to do? What happened to freedom of choice? I choose not to attend church. Should I be FORCED to do it, regardless of my views? Jews don't "do" Christmas. Lets FORCE them to do it. FORCING someone to do something that they do not wish to do is morally reprehensible, fascistic and frankly just bleeding rude.

Just because some idiots claim one thing or another, does not mean that everyone thinks the same thing. There are some Muslims with ridiculous demands about Islamic law and what-not, yes. There are some repellent White Christians with some ridiculous views as well. A lot of them were at that rally. Frankly if we are luck all of the repellent bastards will wipe each other out and we will be left with a much nicer, more comfortable society.


I agree. Just because they want exemption from certain extra-curricular activities isn't evidence they're trying to enact Sharia law. I think that's very alarmist. They're not demanding that everyone convert to Islam and opt out of PE and music with them. I'm sure that if any parent wanted to get their kid out of music or artbad enough, they could probably get it done. THe Jehovas Witness kids is a case and point.



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11 Feb 2011, 3:48 am

Vigilans wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
I have some concern with the complete privatisation of primary and secondary education.

One of the core responsibilties of government is to ensure that there is a system, free at the point of service delivery, for the primary and secondary education of all people. This is one of those select areas where there is a clear benefit to all of us, but it is in no one's direct commercial interest to provide it.

So even if we eliminate all public schools, the public will still be paying for the provision of education through private service providers (much as medical care is currently provided in Canada). I am not certain that such a system will be sustainable, will provide sufficient assurance of quality, or provide responsiveness and accountability to parents.


I agree. I think the system in place right now of having private schools available to those interested is much better. There are a lot of problems with public education but at least you can be certain that the goal of public education is to educate and not to simply make a profit at the expense of learning. Private school teachers are often unwilling to report serious problems with students to parents because they are interested in continuing the flow of money from said parents. A few of my friends have gone through private school and this is often the case


I went to a private school for some years as well, and they taught me the eart was only 7000 years old and every text book had references to Bible verses. You couldn't go a few pages without seeing some how quadratic equations related to Jesus. I'm over-exagerating, but not by much. The idea that private education is always better than public is just an assumption.



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11 Feb 2011, 5:58 am

murphycop wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Sorry, I can't keep reading through your endless irrelevant paragraphs, and correcting you.

Actually, I probably didn't make it clear enough when I said "its a religious thing". I was meaning any religion, people shouldn't have to tip toe around anyone, cause of religion. This is getting like the other thread, we're both writing 3 times as much as we should have to, due to lack of understanding and going off track.


Everything I posted is completely relevant to the subject in hand. Unlike your attempts to make a local school matter into part of a uniliateral destruction of "your" Culture, or waffling about Poles and Equality in a desperate attempt to try and make it look like you have a point. Clearly you do about as much research into your position and beliefs as the Mail.

If White Christian Culture involves such staggering ignorance as you display, then I don't particularly want it to be the dominant one. The kind of "culture" that the BNP and EDL hold up as being the "right one" is nothing but a shallow imitation of a much more unified right-wing "paradise" that also sucked.


Lol. I do have a point, and I get to it. I don't fly off topic with an essay of irrelevance every time I post. I've stated my point already. Life's too short to wait for yours.

Our country is in a bigger mess than it has ever been, I wonder if 13 long years of Labour had much to do with this. Its quite unbelieveable for a left wing person not to have some shame after the mess your party caused. There you go again with your cloned views "BNP, EDL, Mail". Some of my views are very right wing, and some are left wing. I have obviously obtained mine from common sense and experience. Freedom of expression and speech should apply to everyone. Criminals shouldn't have more rights than victims. Its very simple, and its something you can't get to grips with.


You want irrelevant? Why have you dragged a discussion about Canadian Muslims and School into such areas as British Criminal Justice and Freedom of Expression and Speech?

Bit rich give you apparently wish to deny parents the right to determine what their children are taught. Are we then to believe that if these were any other parents and the subjects they disagreed with were say, a lesson in holocaust denial, that you expect them to just sit quietly and take it? A parent has a right to disagree with what a school is teaching their child.

And still you think I'm left wing based on your own prejudices. Ridiculous.


I think you'll find you were the one who immediately changed the subject.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt151175.html

I hope you have a bit of humility and admit this.


I see you talking about how multiculturalism means we should support stoning women to death, and the EDL march in London, "them" forcing "us" to change, tourists in London (?) or this gem:

Quote:
I know radical right wingers look ridiculously stupid, but (name removed (ljo)) radical left wingers, look just as stupid, but they're too hypocritical to see it. When we live in a country where you can only have freedom of expression and speech if you're a "minority", its gets very frustrating. The left wing goverment had their 13 years, it was a complete disaster, they need to swallow their pride.


Clearly that ^ is totally relevant to the subject .... :roll:

So please, do explain where I changed the subject, because all I can find is you posting about British politics and accusing people of being left-wing, and toss like that. Where I have digressed, it is in response to YOUR random sidebars (where they make sense. Seriously, what is the tourist comment supposed to mean?)

I also invite other readers to help me here, because I genuinely cannot figure out what Murphycop is talking about.


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11 Feb 2011, 6:13 am

murphycop wrote:
Fuzzy wrote:
The request to get out of PE/music is an exclusion not an intrusion. It would be as if that person were simply not in that class, not attending school(during that short time).

This ironically should be pleasing to murphycop, but somehow its not. For a guy who doesnt want them in his country at all, hes sure determined to force them to be inclusive.


Fuzzy! Maybe go back and read my posts. I didn't say they should be forced. What other reasons, as well as religion could you use to get out of classes?


Quote:
Its about time they adapt to our culture, or they know where the door is.


Quote:
If any religious person is going to a normal school, they should do what everyone else has to do.


Quote:
If they don't like the way things are, they have the "freedom of choice" to go somewhere else.


Not "forced", but exactly how much compulsion does one have to use before it becomes force? "Do it our way or get out."? And it isn't freedom of choice if the only choice is leave or conform.


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11 Feb 2011, 7:34 am

Macbeth wrote:
Not "forced", but exactly how much compulsion does one have to use before it becomes force? "Do it our way or get out."? And it isn't freedom of choice if the only choice is leave or conform.

In this context, I agree: Freedom of choice would be a choice between flavors of ice cream and not having to go without just because only "strawberry" is available and I am allergic to it.


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11 Feb 2011, 12:28 pm

Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
murphycop wrote:
Sorry, I can't keep reading through your endless irrelevant paragraphs, and correcting you.

Actually, I probably didn't make it clear enough when I said "its a religious thing". I was meaning any religion, people shouldn't have to tip toe around anyone, cause of religion. This is getting like the other thread, we're both writing 3 times as much as we should have to, due to lack of understanding and going off track.


Everything I posted is completely relevant to the subject in hand. Unlike your attempts to make a local school matter into part of a uniliateral destruction of "your" Culture, or waffling about Poles and Equality in a desperate attempt to try and make it look like you have a point. Clearly you do about as much research into your position and beliefs as the Mail.

If White Christian Culture involves such staggering ignorance as you display, then I don't particularly want it to be the dominant one. The kind of "culture" that the BNP and EDL hold up as being the "right one" is nothing but a shallow imitation of a much more unified right-wing "paradise" that also sucked.


Lol. I do have a point, and I get to it. I don't fly off topic with an essay of irrelevance every time I post. I've stated my point already. Life's too short to wait for yours.

Our country is in a bigger mess than it has ever been, I wonder if 13 long years of Labour had much to do with this. Its quite unbelieveable for a left wing person not to have some shame after the mess your party caused. There you go again with your cloned views "BNP, EDL, Mail". Some of my views are very right wing, and some are left wing. I have obviously obtained mine from common sense and experience. Freedom of expression and speech should apply to everyone. Criminals shouldn't have more rights than victims. Its very simple, and its something you can't get to grips with.


You want irrelevant? Why have you dragged a discussion about Canadian Muslims and School into such areas as British Criminal Justice and Freedom of Expression and Speech?

Bit rich give you apparently wish to deny parents the right to determine what their children are taught. Are we then to believe that if these were any other parents and the subjects they disagreed with were say, a lesson in holocaust denial, that you expect them to just sit quietly and take it? A parent has a right to disagree with what a school is teaching their child.

And still you think I'm left wing based on your own prejudices. Ridiculous.


I think you'll find you were the one who immediately changed the subject.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt151175.html

I hope you have a bit of humility and admit this.


I see you talking about how multiculturalism means we should support stoning women to death, and the EDL march in London, "them" forcing "us" to change, tourists in London (?) or this gem:

Quote:
I know radical right wingers look ridiculously stupid, but (name removed (ljo)) radical left wingers, look just as stupid, but they're too hypocritical to see it. When we live in a country where you can only have freedom of expression and speech if you're a "minority", its gets very frustrating. The left wing goverment had their 13 years, it was a complete disaster, they need to swallow their pride.


Clearly that ^ is totally relevant to the subject .... :roll:

So please, do explain where I changed the subject, because all I can find is you posting about British politics and accusing people of being left-wing, and toss like that. Where I have digressed, it is in response to YOUR random sidebars (where they make sense. Seriously, what is the tourist comment supposed to mean?)

I also invite other readers to help me here, because I genuinely cannot figure out what Murphycop is talking about.


:roll: Just look at your first post, and ranting about other religions. My first post was completely relevant to the topic, yours wasn't.

Obviously the post of mine you quoted was when the topic had gone off the rails, but like I said, you were the one to start that off.

What tourist comment, did you forget to link it? What I said was relevant, cause i'm pointing out thats its ok for Muslims to make such demands, but not certain others.


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murphycop
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11 Feb 2011, 12:35 pm

So if a white atheist person said they didn't want to be taught English lessons by a Muslim, cause they found it offensive, would they be able to stop him teaching, or would they be "forced" out of the school?


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11 Feb 2011, 2:25 pm

murphycop wrote:
So if a white atheist person said they didn't want to be taught English lessons by a Muslim, cause they found it offensive, would they be able to stop him teaching, or would they be "forced" out of the school?


They would only have a case if the Muslim (or Christian, or Hindu, or whatever) was preaching his or her religion to the class along with the English. The teacher's and student's race are irrelevant to the scenario.



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11 Feb 2011, 2:34 pm

I've had it with immigrants showing up in Canada and expecting all of us to accomodate any and all of their traditions, customs, ways, religious beliefs, religious ways, etc, etc! BS! Like the leader of Australia said recently, " if you don't like the way we do things here, LEAVE!! !" That statement was in response to some muslim group wanting special considerations. Enough is enough. Our country is being watered down with some immigrants believing it is their Allah given right to act the way they want when they arrive in Canada. Pretty damn nervy! Yet, take a trip to their countries and see how far you get practising your beliefs, traditions and ways! You will quickly find yourself in a scummy prison being beaqten and tortured for having an opinion different from the state sponsored opinion. Like the old saying goes, "don't let the border gate hit your ass on the way back to the hell you came from, IDIOTS!"



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11 Feb 2011, 2:56 pm

LKL wrote:
murphycop wrote:
So if a white atheist person said they didn't want to be taught English lessons by a Muslim, cause they found it offensive, would they be able to stop him teaching, or would they be "forced" out of the school?


They would only have a case if the Muslim (or Christian, or Hindu, or whatever) was preaching his or her religion to the class along with the English. The teacher's and student's race are irrelevant to the scenario.


Well thats different cause the school in question wasn't preaching their religion, it was just the Muslims complaining. I didn't say race did I, I said religion.


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murphycop
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11 Feb 2011, 2:58 pm

blairgolf511 wrote:
I've had it with immigrants showing up in Canada and expecting all of us to accomodate any and all of their traditions, customs, ways, religious beliefs, religious ways, etc, etc! BS! Like the leader of Australia said recently, " if you don't like the way we do things here, LEAVE!! !" That statement was in response to some muslim group wanting special considerations. Enough is enough. Our country is being watered down with some immigrants believing it is their Allah given right to act the way they want when they arrive in Canada. Pretty damn nervy! Yet, take a trip to their countries and see how far you get practising your beliefs, traditions and ways! You will quickly find yourself in a scummy prison being beaqten and tortured for having an opinion different from the state sponsored opinion. Like the old saying goes, "don't let the border gate hit your ass on the way back to the hell you came from, IDIOTS!"


Yep, its the double standards that gets me the most. Enoch Powell saw the future.


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11 Feb 2011, 3:05 pm

I don't have a problem with Muslims living in Canada. Many of the Muslims I have met in Montreal are much more courteous, polite & educated then the local yokels around here. I suppose being part of an also hated minority (Anglos) here makes me feel something in common with them. Perhaps, depending on the outcome of the current domino of revolutions taking place in the Middle East, democracy may come to their homelands and they won't feel the need to leave en mass. In any case, I don't agree that they should bring Sharia with them. As for the hijab, we don't have a problem with letting morbidly obese women walk around with exposed g-strings..


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11 Feb 2011, 3:31 pm

Quote:
I went to a private school for some years as well, and they taught me the eart was only 7000 years old and every text book had references to Bible verses. You couldn't go a few pages without seeing some how quadratic equations related to Jesus. I'm over-exagerating, but not by much. The idea that private education is always better than public is just an assumption.[

That sucks man I'm really glad you made it out of there with a head on your shoulders lol. That is definitely an issue with some private schools, there has to be public oversight in what is being taught otherwise that kind of defecation on learning can occur


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Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do