Feminism vs. Equality

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No?
How about this?
http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/ ... index.html
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/03/16/r ... gang-rape/
http://www.alternet.org/rss/1/513829/11 ... &rd=1&t=13
or this?
http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/2008/11/06/somalia
or this?
http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/fe ... _at_school
or this?
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 10,00.html
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2010/01/26/13 ... ary-raped/
http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-31/us/m ... e?_s=PM:US

That's just a few minutes' search on the rather narrow topic of rape. I could keep going.

It is a conspiracy theory because you are attributing far more organization and cohesiveness to the group, 'feminists,' than can even remotely be demonstrated to exist.

I linked to specific articles, not to entire sites; and, conveniently, the ones you disregard are the ones that support the claims about women doing more of the work.


If women get primary custody most of the time, and
if custody is granted based on the legal criteria set forth in the first link (ie, which partner provides most of the care before the divorce),
then it follows that women fulfill the legal criteria better than men most of the time.
Unless you think there's a vast conspriacy within the legal system to favor women against what is best for the child?

in any case:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01639.html , quote:
...recent research shows that over the past four decades, fathers like Clark have nearly tripled the hours they spend focused on their children.
They still lag behind American mothers, who put in about twice as many hours directly involved with their children and doing housework. But, as researcher Suzanne M. Bianchi put it, today's fathers "do a lot more than their fathers did."
fasnafan.tripod.com/family.pdf
see page 358
http://factoidz.com/the-times-of-workin ... rs-part-2/
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/542/modern-marriage
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20802807
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1408864
http://journals.lww.com/nursingresearch ... ual.7.aspx

for fun:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ework.html


I repeat: If the man wants to take on more child care after the marriage, more power to him. However, if he avoided it when he was married, he's unlikely to take it on (or to be very good at it) after the marriage, and it will be distressing to the children to be placed with the parent who didn't care for them instead of the one who did. If both parents claim that they want to be primary caretakers, who should the judge believe? The one who has slacked up to the divorce, or the one who has already been a primary caretaker?

{snip wikipedia divorce stats}

Given that you're tossing out sources as willy-nilly, and seemingly with almost as little justification, I doubt that a revelation from a god would be a 'suitable source' for you. However, here goes:
http://www.straightdivorce.com/divorce_ ... istics.asp
http://www.pobronson.com/factbook/pages/227.html
http://www.divorce360.com/divorce-artic ... ?artid=169


http://www.straightdivorce.com/divorce_ ... istics.asp (3rd paragraph)
http://exconnection.com/advice/11-divor ... ed-divorce


ORLY?


I challenge your claim that trends have been shown to be progressing at a fast pace ('fast' being, in this case, years instead of decades), either on this thread or anywhere else, and I disagree that timed data is of no value to this discussion.

*snort* The only way you could possibly say something like that is that you haven't been paying attention. This is an ongoing, continually discussed issue on feminist blogs, sociology courses, and in women's studies classes.


This is a sociological issue, not a legal one.


The latter. My primary interest in this discussion has been the division of childcare and housework when both parents work outside the home. If one parent decides to stop working completely (usually, but not always the mother), they will see a decrease in future employability and future earnings because of lost experience.

Flexible hours can already be negotiated, why did you bring that up though, I am not sure?
Flexible hours can sometimes be negotiated with some employers. This is another sociological feminist issue - addressed mainly by feminists because women are more impacted by child care than men are - that would also benefit men.

I consider my points adequately made. I predict that you will find fault with the current sources without addressing their points, but I am done with this portion of the argument.

Please , read my post on page 1.

It is this *fantasy* which is holding your gender back now.

I thought that the ultimate goal of radical feminism is the abolish of the patriarchal system and implying an egalitarian society instead.

By wishing an older, wiser man as an ultimate dream, you're just enforcing the system that your movement claims to be against.

So does this mean I'm perpetrating racism because I married a white guy? Or am I countering the marriage equality movement because I didn't end up with a woman?

Seriously, the feminist movement was about giving women CHOICES. We are not working against feminism by being housewives and stay at home mothers. That assertion is utterly ridiculous.

Organization is not required for a cohesive movement, I only claimed that feminism acted as a political group not that it shared the same organizational traits.



3 of your links didn't go to articles.



But the criteria are not just, if they are getting divorced and assuming one partner does not need spousal support, why would the man need to maintain his current hours? In theory they would have roughly the same hours no? Then why shouldn't shared parenting be the go to policy?



First link claims equal marital duties when paid and unpaid work is tallied, I cannot find a date on the second link but the only comment is 6 months old and contradicts the 2007 article,



Shows a shared workload as ranking in importance for both men and women(2007)(Also states later that only 7% view it as unimportant) The article also states that this question has risen the most in their poll, Fourth link just states that perceived unfairness in division of labor upsets both men and women, it makes no actual claims about whether or not the perceptions where valid. Fifth Link states that the amount of child care fathers participate in grows with female employment aka attempts at equal division of labor are shown if not in intent then in practice(Although it doesn't actually state if the relation is proportional), Sixth Link, is same as the last, 7th link affirms the fourth link.

So all you have shown is that current trends in marriage lean towards an equal division of labor, the fact that the man is not spending all his time with the child is not indicative that he is shirking a parental duty, nor is it confirmation that he might not be willing to lower his working hours for a shared parenting plan. Your second link is the black sheep of the bunch btw.



Your above links contradict any claims that the man is avoiding child care out of anything other than doing his fair share. There for how can you argue against a shared parenting presumption. The rest are your own prejudice and have no factual basis, if the woman learned how to care for their children why would the man be unable to? And once again I feel that I must state that I am arguing for shared parental custody presumptions not for male primary custody. Shared parenting presumptions(or just presumptions) work on the basis that the person(or persons) going against the presumption must prove that it is in the child's best interest to do so, I probably should have said presumption from the start instead of policy. Your slacked phrase("The one who slacked up to the divorce") contradicts the links you provided that showed a desire for equal division of labor from both parents. Your saying that because the man did not do as much of the child care work as the woman that he is slacking, I don't know why you would provide links contradicting this claim.





First link, says estimated but supplies no source(95% uncontested), And I am going to assume your referring to



With the second link, which still does not contradict my claim that they objected to the current setup in some way, although i suppose only the first two match my claim in how general they are. Third link does not include a comprehensive list of options in their poll(which can be reached through a link at the end, although I could just be confusing it as it looks like it might be a separate poll). Also seeing as to how their website concerns divorce and provides domestic abuse support their numbers might be influenced with that, I would lean towards the second link.






Addressed the first above I think, it is simply making a statement and does not source a study.(They could be for instance citing their own caseload, which isn't useful unless they operate over a large region.) Second Link, links to http://exconnection.com/advice/11-divor ... d-divorce# , Which just repeats what your link says(although I suppose it's the other way around) but doesn't provide its source, anyone can repeat a statistic LKL that doesn't make it true.


?




Although it may not be yearly one of your links above show fast progression towards shared division of labor marriage views.




I read a lot of news but I do not look for feminist blogs or websites in particular(although sometimes I do get led there from something else), so that way is possible, but there are still no feminist lobbies for shared parenting presumptions which would be the most egalitarian policy for child custody. In fact feminists(Note I am not saying all feminists, this is too say feminists as individuals have) have gone up against such claims on the basis that it will place children in abusive homes.(Which is baseless as presumptions can be broken with evidence) Womens groups have also campaigned against laws in Australia that would move child custody to a presumption of shared custody and require counseling to accommodate the shared parenting policy.




No when men and women are held equal the law should match, holding men and women are equal the presumption should be that shared custody is the most fair minded policy.(With of course exceptions for domestic violence or gross negligence) The current laws state that their must be a primary caregiver and smacks of inequality any way you paint it, to assert that one parent is less than the other with no basis.




And using your sources division of labor has been shown as equal or that is it has been shown that equality is the ideal that couples strive for.



Employers will always work with valuable employees. I did not bring up flexible hours, you did, feel free to go reread the posts. And a tax credit for providing flexible hours for mothers and fathers would solve the issue, would it not?



Addressed.

I invite anyone to read the entirety of the links that I suggested. Though they come from multiple sources and don't always agree, I picked balanced sources (from which Ikorack picked only the parts that supported his claims). They show that child care has traditionally been, and remains, primarily the responsibility of the wife, although both men and women (especially young men and young women) hold equality as an ideal and actively work towards that goal. Thank you, feminism (ignorance is not an argument, Ikorack).

I do know that until a decade and a half ago, there was still a lingering presumption in the courts that mothers make better primary parents than fathers and there's still a sort of stigma against "stay at home dads". I really view it as a consequence of traditional gender roles (men were viewed as better suited to the - very powerful and agenda setting role - of participants in the public sphere whereas women were relegated to a lesser status, confined to the "private sphere". However, as a result of this residual ideology, more sensitive men have had a difficult time gaining access to "traditionally feminne roles" like primary childcare provider). The number of single-fathers, though, is growing quite a bit: http://www.thestar.com/article/257333

As an example of this prejudice against men in the private sphere, see this LiberalViewer clip:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCdr-WZlRc4&feature=channel_video_title[/youtube]

Yes but the links also show that when a women wants to break traditional roles the man will comply and the division of labor accommodates, now in a divorce considering your links which do show that an equal division of labor is the ideal, what basis is there to assume that one spouse is only working at his/her job to avoid child care and base custody on that? Also what basis is there to assume that one parent cannot adjust to a less traditional(and more equal) division of labor if the benefit is being able to raise their child as an equal? How is ignorance my argument, I read your links and used the parts that were relevant to my arguments, that is not an argument from ignorance.

EDIT: I didn't see where your young men and women statement was stated or evidenced(in the links you provided), could you tell me?

Yes it is also increasing in America, albeit slowly(I think it was 2% over either 2,5, or 10 years I can't remember right now), they don't list how fast it is going up in Canada however nor what percentage of single father households are a result of court decisions.

"I've never been able to find out precisely what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." -Rebecca West

@ Master Pedant, answering the question posed in the video: yes, I think that is sexist. The dads I know almost shine with love for their kids, and after a child is weaned I don't see any reason at all why a dad can't socially be the primary care-giver if the couple's circumstances and relative talents make that a better choice - nor do I think that dads should be denigrated in any way for making that choice, any more than moms should.

@Ikorack: It was somewhere in the mess of what I read. It's possible that it was in an article that I chose not to post. Just out of curiosity, do you honestly think that an average wife in the 1950's could have asked her husband for more help with the cooking/dishes/cleaning/child care and gotten, 'sure, honey!,' even if she also worked full time? And if she did get that answer, would he feel comfortable, or even proud, to tell his men-friends that he was helping his wife around the house for more equal labor division?

What does that question have to do with anything? I am not objecting to every affect feminism has had on us, I am objecting to their lack of involvement in men's rights as it pertains to their original egalitarians goals. You still have not come up with a coherent statement against my last argument(The one which uses your sources). Nor with my statements against the lack of lobbying for equal parenting from feminist groups and individuals. The fact that men and women are now expecting an equal division of labor is a positive effect of feminism but it does not justify the stall in(or lack of) lobbying for shared parenting from feminists. I question why you are defending an institution which encourages traditional gender roles.

WTF?
Have you been reading anything I've written?
Other readers, do you also have the impression that I have been "defending an institution that encourages traditional gender roles," or have I actually gotten my point across to people other than Ikorack?

That's because you are ignoring posts which don't suit your position. As I have already pointed out, look at countries that are further advanced along the feminist path and you will see a more equal division of roles.

Custody laws reward the person who follows the traditional female role with custody, and this does indeed seem to be a law your defending, feel free to correct me. Do you have a problem with my other statements?



Like Sweden, with it's closed rape trials? Feminism just won't work without a male counter group to balance out privileges, which I suppose is my opinion. What other countries would you like me to look at?