ryan93 wrote:
The second part pretty much says that entropy increase is inevitable in an engine.
Correct. It can't be 0. However, theoretically, it can be arbitrarily close to 0.
ruveyn wrote:
The only perfectly efficient heat engine is one with its sink temperature at absolute 0. In short, there is, as you say, no perfectly efficient heat engine. The best we can do with combustion engines running very, very hot is maybe 35 to 40 percent and that is stretch.
Modern gas turbine plants run at about 60% efficiency:
http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/produc ... /index.htm
I was surprised too when I found out.
If you plugged in the lowest achieved temperature recorded, and the planck temperature, you get an efficiency of 1 - (7.05 x 10^-42). So pretty high, but not exactly one. Still, an engine that efficient would be great.
I'm actually suprised 60% efficiency has been reached, I thought Ruveyn's numbers would be as high as efficiency got ![]()
_________________
The scientist only imposes two things, namely truth and sincerity, imposes them upon himself and upon other scientists - Erwin Schrodinger
Member of the WP Strident Atheists
I wonder what the efficiency of an antimatter fueled engine would be? Close to 100%? ![]()
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
Vigilans wrote:
I wonder what the efficiency of an antimatter fueled engine would be? Close to 100%? 
Hell, efficiency wouldn't really matter. For every kg would should get the equivalent of forty megatonnes of TNT of energy. I think a significant amount of the energy is bled into neutrinos though.
_________________
The scientist only imposes two things, namely truth and sincerity, imposes them upon himself and upon other scientists - Erwin Schrodinger
Member of the WP Strident Atheists
ryan93 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I wonder what the efficiency of an antimatter fueled engine would be? Close to 100%? 
Hell, efficiency wouldn't really matter. For every kg would should get the equivalent of forty megatonnes of TNT of energy. I think a significant amount of the energy is bled into neutrinos though.
Its a fairly recent discovery but it is now known that antimatter is sometimes formed high above thunderstorms. I believe the launched a satellite observatory with instrumentation on-board capable of searching for antimatter. I have a lot of hopes for this, as antimatter is pretty much the best solution I am aware of
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
ruveyn wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Quote:
True for extraction technologies. It's not so clear how true that is for usage technologies improving energy efficiency. There's no theoretical limit to how efficient transportation or climate control can get; with perfect insulation, heating becomes unnecessary, for example.
Sure there is.

The second part pretty much says that entropy increase is inevitable in an engine. So there has to be heat loss, which means inefficiency.
As for perfect insulation, it has to be transported, often by oil consuming vehicles. In any case, oil is probably used in some point of the production of the insulation.
The only perfectly efficient heat engine is one with its sink temperature at absolute 0. In short, there is, as you say, no perfectly efficient heat engine. The best we can do with combustion engines running very, very hot is maybe 35 to 40 percent and that is stretch.
ruveyn
Not completely true, quasiturbine engines got a efficiency of 80%.
Vigilans wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I wonder what the efficiency of an antimatter fueled engine would be? Close to 100%? 
Hell, efficiency wouldn't really matter. For every kg would should get the equivalent of forty megatonnes of TNT of energy. I think a significant amount of the energy is bled into neutrinos though.
Its a fairly recent discovery but it is now known that antimatter is sometimes formed high above thunderstorms. I believe the launched a satellite observatory with instrumentation on-board capable of searching for antimatter. I have a lot of hopes for this, as antimatter is pretty much the best solution I am aware of
Tollorin wrote:
Monopoles and fusion-fission hybrids for a shorter term solution, are more promising.
A magnetic monopole has never been observed and controlled fusion has been a bust. Controlled fusion has been 30 years in the future for the last 50 years and a hundred years from now it will still be 30 years in the future.
ruveyn
Vigilans wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I wonder what the efficiency of an antimatter fueled engine would be? Close to 100%? 
Hell, efficiency wouldn't really matter. For every kg would should get the equivalent of forty megatonnes of TNT of energy. I think a significant amount of the energy is bled into neutrinos though.
Its a fairly recent discovery but it is now known that antimatter is sometimes formed high above thunderstorms. I believe the launched a satellite observatory with instrumentation on-board capable of searching for antimatter. I have a lot of hopes for this, as antimatter is pretty much the best solution I am aware of
Can you produce a scientific paper verifying this?
ruveyn
ruveyn wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I wonder what the efficiency of an antimatter fueled engine would be? Close to 100%? 
Hell, efficiency wouldn't really matter. For every kg would should get the equivalent of forty megatonnes of TNT of energy. I think a significant amount of the energy is bled into neutrinos though.
Its a fairly recent discovery but it is now known that antimatter is sometimes formed high above thunderstorms. I believe the launched a satellite observatory with instrumentation on-board capable of searching for antimatter. I have a lot of hopes for this, as antimatter is pretty much the best solution I am aware of
Can you produce a scientific paper verifying this?
ruveyn
This is where I first read about it, I believe:
http://www.space.com/10602-antimatter-beams-thunderstorms-nasa.html
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
psychohist wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
The second part pretty much says that entropy increase is inevitable in an engine.
Correct. It can't be 0. However, theoretically, it can be arbitrarily close to 0.
ruveyn wrote:
The only perfectly efficient heat engine is one with its sink temperature at absolute 0. In short, there is, as you say, no perfectly efficient heat engine. The best we can do with combustion engines running very, very hot is maybe 35 to 40 percent and that is stretch.
Modern gas turbine plants run at about 60% efficiency:
http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/produc ... /index.htm
I was surprised too when I found out.
That is not a completely kosher measure. Look at this:
efficient—up to 60%—when waste heat from the gas turbine is recovered by a heat recovery steam generator to power a conventional steam turbine in a combined cycle configuration.[13][14] They can also be run in a cogeneration configuration: the exhaust is used for space or water heating, or drives an absorption chiller for cooling or refrigeration. Such engines require a dedicated enclosure, both to protect the engine from the elements and the operators from the noise.
The actual efficiency of the turbine itself is less than 60 percent. And the efficiency at the end point, when mechanical work external to the turbine is produced is even less.
There is no way of beating the second law of thermodynamics and one cannot break even.
ruveyn
ruveyn wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Monopoles and fusion-fission hybrids for a shorter term solution, are more promising.
A magnetic monopole has never been observed and controlled fusion has been a bust. Controlled fusion has been 30 years in the future for the last 50 years and a hundred years from now it will still be 30 years in the future.
ruveyn
A monopole was observed recently
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 163725.htm
_________________
The scientist only imposes two things, namely truth and sincerity, imposes them upon himself and upon other scientists - Erwin Schrodinger
Member of the WP Strident Atheists
ryan93 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Monopoles and fusion-fission hybrids for a shorter term solution, are more promising.
A magnetic monopole has never been observed and controlled fusion has been a bust. Controlled fusion has been 30 years in the future for the last 50 years and a hundred years from now it will still be 30 years in the future.
ruveyn
A monopole was observed recently
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 163725.htm
I read that article too. It might be magnetic monopole. It might not be. The matter is still in dispute.
It is a preliminary finding and more work will have to be done before a firm conclusion is reached and verified.
ruveyn
psychohist wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
That is not a completely kosher measure.
How is it not kosher? 60% of the fossil fuel energy is turned into electricity. So what if it takes two turbines to do it?
Because the means of recovering the "waste" heat is not perfectly efficient. The question is how much of the input to the heat engine produces mechanical energy and how much. What percent? The turbine -itself- is not 60 percent efficient. The only effective number is the relative efficiency at the point of application where -useful- mechanical work is produced and that is less than 60 percent.
Did you know that electrical transformers can be 99 % efficient? So what. What is the efficiency of the electrical energy at the point of application where it does mechanical work?
ruveyn
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