Burden of proof of Laden's responsability for 911.

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psychohist
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03 May 2011, 12:21 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
Anyway, a trial would have been a formality and Osama would have definitely gotten Death Penalty, that makes me wonder what the reason not to have a trial is...

It's a lot easier to kill someone than to take them alive. Basically, bin Laden was too smart and too competent to be taken alive. In a choice between killing him and allowing him to escape yet again, he was killed.



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03 May 2011, 12:23 am

HerrGrimm wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
And it is more ethical to kill him without trial. I guess.


Yes.
Nah. Let us stop rationalizing stuff. I'll tell you what happened.

There was a raid. The raid had to end violently, including head shooting the terrorists. Unfortunately, the original plan to have Osama in custody failed and also the plan of giving pics that proved his death conclusively because the head shot made Osama unrecognizable. So, they had to just get DNA proof and dump the body to the ocean before more speculation could be created.


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simon_says
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03 May 2011, 12:23 am

They didnt want a shrine anywhere.

What does a body matter for evidence if you've got photos, video, fingerprints, dna evidence? Plus there are ~18 witnesses at the scene who were left behind, including his wife. They can say what they like. Presumably the Pakistanis have his adult son's body now. And Al Qaeda hasnt denied it. Rumor is they are preparing to release his final martyrdom video.

There are plenty of avenues for information. The guy is dead.



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03 May 2011, 12:27 am

The photos don't work because he was unrecognizable. If you are talking about the photos of a corpse that really looks like Osama and are circulating the web they are fakes.

I am not saying he is not Osama , I am just saying that clearly the original plan went wrong, which caused them to not take him to custody. Not be able to release pictures and to dump the body quickly. Those three decisions are terrible if you want to avoid conspiracy theorists going nuts, so the only rational explanation is that they weren't the original plan. They just didn't plan the raid to go so wrong that they ended with an unrecognizable Osama body instead of something more juicy that would make things harder for Conspiracy theorists.

And shrines are so stupid, what stops a bunch of Al'Quaeda crazies from making a boat-shrine?


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03 May 2011, 12:36 am

I havent read he was unrecognizable.

Ive read that he's recognizable in the kill scene photos (in one story) but that the photo is gruesome (in another story). Ive also read they used facial recognition as a way to confirm his identify after death. He was apparently shot in the eye and the chest so that shouldnt ruin his face. Ive read that they may release the funeral photos showing him about to be dumped into the sea but not the gruesome kill scene photos.

They have said they are in no rush because no one is denying it. Its still the first 24 hours.

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Yeah, well I know I'm basing this on civil courts, are international or military courts different in that aspect? is the burden of proof not that high in them, and more like utilitarian ways to solve these problems.


I don't know either. I'm not sure that courts of any kind are required if national security is deemed at risk by a non-citizen. Clinton tried to kill him in 98 over the embassy bombings but he just missed him. That's when he was still running the camps in Afghanistan. The guy has been a US target for ~13 years. Egypt has probably wanted him and Zawahiri dead for longer than that.



Lefebvre
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03 May 2011, 1:14 am

Why did people here explosions in the Twin Towers' basements, just before both buildings collapsed?



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03 May 2011, 2:17 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
HerrGrimm wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Anyway, a trial would have been a formality and Osama would have definitely gotten Death Penalty, that makes me wonder what the reason not to have a trial is...

Plus he could have been interrogated and make his benefactors fall with him.


It is completely unethical to even presume you are having a trial that already has convicted a person. It is bad enough with the frivolous lawsuits and the judicial branch being completely political now.

And it is more ethical to kill him without trial. I guess.

There is a difference between proceeding with a trial when there is certainty of conviction (which would come because of the accusing side getting a good range of evidence) and doing it when the outcome is decided. The idea of trial is one in which the judge is not the same as the people presenting the evidence, otherwise, yeah it would be unethical. But that's not a trial, either

Holding him captive would have created political headaches, so the SEALs just cut through all the red tape. :D


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03 May 2011, 2:23 am

Lefebvre wrote:
Why did people here explosions in the Twin Towers' basements, just before both buildings collapsed?

The building's bottom floors were sturdy until the top floors came down on it. It's possible that something exploded as the result of burning jet fuel down there but it was structurally sound at the bottom. Also, whoever reported that explosions were heard right before the collapse is probably lying because it is unlikely that anyone that was inside the lower floors and basement or close to the buildings when they collapsed survived.


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Lefebvre
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03 May 2011, 4:41 am

Then there are a lot of liars because many people reported the explosions.
I am sure it was an inside job, a step on the way to the new world order.
Many americans think it was an inside job too.



naturalplastic
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03 May 2011, 9:05 am

Okay lets go with this flaky notion that OBL had nothing to do with 9-11.
Even before 9-11 he had already bombed the embassies in Africa and attacked the USS Cole, so he was already a murderer. If Jeffrey Daumier or Ted Bundy had resisted arrest and forced the cops to shoot them you wouldnt mourn. Even if you ignore 9-11 Ben Ladin was still a murderer- a murderer who resisted arrest when they finally caught him. So I dont see why you have a problem with what happened.



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03 May 2011, 9:50 am

He admitted his part on a television broadcast distributed by al Queda through al Jizera.

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03 May 2011, 10:29 am

A heavy burden topic

And like many in power who were not actively involved in killings, OBL did not pull any triggers, as far as I know.

Haz bin spread his terror far and wide, took credit where it was due, influenced and Islamized many young men and women, and financed terror as well. He ain't my brother, and he is very heavy.

I wish the US could have saved the body for all to see, before deep sixing it, so many can put this behind them, as what happened with Sodamn Insane.

I will check for documented photos.


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psychohist
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03 May 2011, 10:40 am

Lefebvre wrote:
Why did people here explosions in the Twin Towers' basements, just before both buildings collapsed?

Lots of things sound like explosions that aren't explosions - for example, snapping of the support cables would sound like explosions.



ruveyn
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03 May 2011, 12:52 pm

psychohist wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Anyway, a trial would have been a formality and Osama would have definitely gotten Death Penalty, that makes me wonder what the reason not to have a trial is...

It's a lot easier to kill someone than to take them alive. Basically, bin Laden was too smart and too competent to be taken alive. In a choice between killing him and allowing him to escape yet again, he was killed.


He was ordered to surrender by the SEALS. He refused, so he was killed forthwith. He chose to die.

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03 May 2011, 2:59 pm

A downside with him getting killed is that now he is a martyr for the loonies.


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