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NeantHumain
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09 Oct 2011, 10:54 am

Which one (and one and only one of them has to) represents real middle-class Americans? Which one is an astroturf effort to make special interests look like what Americans really want?



JakobVirgil
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09 Oct 2011, 11:07 am

NeantHumain wrote:
Which one (and one and only one of them has to) represents real middle-class Americans? Which one is an astroturf effort to make special interests look like what Americans really want?


The whois on the early teaparty websites pointed to medical insurance companies.


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Vexcalibur
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09 Oct 2011, 12:10 pm

I was told by a mod to reword this on a way that didnt attack posters from a certain country and all I got was a crapy edit about it


If you want to have fun, take criticism to any of them, swap the mentions of tea parties and occupiers and swap the words marxist and fascist. It is fun.

edited by spongy


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Last edited by Vexcalibur on 15 Oct 2011, 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jacoby
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09 Oct 2011, 12:42 pm

The average middle-class American doesn't care about politics. Most are more concerned with Dancing With The Stars and Glee than they are with how their tax money is or isn't being spent.

There was a level of coherency with the Tea Party(relative to the OWS protests) in that they clearly opposed the Democrat's health insurance plan and wanted to reduce the size and scope of government. OWS is against... Wall Street? Because... they make money? The corporations mmmmmaaaamannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

I suppose when you look at it from that standpoint of who better represents the rabid, uninformed, just plain stupid masses, you can hand it to OWS. Congratulations.

As for who is an astroturf movement to make special interests look like what Americans really want? I wouldn't say either started that way but it's a lot easier to manipulate an unorganized leaderless "movements" with no coherent message or goal. It's pretty easy to see where OWS is going. The 50 or however many people that started it and got the initial attention are now vastly outnumbered by wannabes and activists with their own interests. You have your standard dreadlock wearing doobie smoking anti-capitalists, unions, Soros groups such as MoveOn.org, and many more I'm sure. The "special interests" are already taking over.

The Tea Party/OWS comparison is legitimate when you look at their ultimate fates tho, being co-opted respectively into the establishment of the Republican and Democratic parties. As sad that is, it seems inevitable that their initially anti-corporate agendas will get turned on it's head and will start supporting the machine(lip service aside) that they were supposedly against.



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09 Oct 2011, 4:11 pm

Jacoby wrote:

There was a level of coherency with the Tea Party(relative to the OWS protests) in that they clearly opposed the Democrat's health insurance plan and wanted to reduce the size and scope of government. OWS is against... Wall Street? Because... they make money? The corporations mmmmmaaaamannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn


The Tea Partisans started out with a rather anti-bailout message before morphing into an "Obama is a socialist, taxes are too high, the deficit will cause the end of the world, healthcare reform is evil" party. Many key Occupy WallStreet protesters (and, indeed, several central organizers like AdBusters) have made it clear that the role of corporate money in politics is a central issue.


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09 Oct 2011, 4:38 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Jacoby wrote:

There was a level of coherency with the Tea Party(relative to the OWS protests) in that they clearly opposed the Democrat's health insurance plan and wanted to reduce the size and scope of government. OWS is against... Wall Street? Because... they make money? The corporations mmmmmaaaamannnnnnnnnnnnnnnn


The Tea Partisans started out with a rather anti-bailout message before morphing into an "Obama is a socialist, taxes are too high, the deficit will cause the end of the world, healthcare reform is evil" party. Many key Occupy WallStreet protesters (and, indeed, several central organizers like AdBusters) have made it clear that the role of corporate money in politics is a central issue.


It is the unholy alliance between some of the Corporations and Government, the reign of the Crony Capitalists that is at the heart of both protests and the government is right in the middle. The U.S. government is run by churls, morons, incompetents and utterly base people.

Unfortunately the public keeps re-electing them.

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09 Oct 2011, 4:55 pm

Jacoby's analysis is also relatively dishonest. The Occupy WallStreeters didn't start protesting until Sept. 17, 2011. The Tea Partisans were around for a longer period of time (and, indeed, were initially planned as an extension of the "Ron Paul Revolution" after the candidate failed to win the nomination in 2008, somewhat before the healthcare proposal was fleshed out) before the various strands of the movement converged onto opposition to healthcare reform and (with Kock influence) a generic opposition to taxation.


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09 Oct 2011, 8:06 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Jacoby's analysis is also relatively dishonest. The Occupy WallStreeters didn't start protesting until Sept. 17, 2011. The Tea Partisans were around for a longer period of time (and, indeed, were initially planned as an extension of the "Ron Paul Revolution" after the candidate failed to win the nomination in 2008, somewhat before the healthcare proposal was fleshed out) before the various strands of the movement converged onto opposition to healthcare reform and (with Kock influence) a generic opposition to taxation.


The Tea Part -began- as a libertarian protest against certain government policies. It has been hijacked by the Republican Ultra Right, the religious crazies, the shi'ite Christians.

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09 Oct 2011, 9:58 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Jacoby's analysis is also relatively dishonest. The Occupy WallStreeters didn't start protesting until Sept. 17, 2011. The Tea Partisans were around for a longer period of time (and, indeed, were initially planned as an extension of the "Ron Paul Revolution" after the candidate failed to win the nomination in 2008, somewhat before the healthcare proposal was fleshed out) before the various strands of the movement converged onto opposition to healthcare reform and (with Kock influence) a generic opposition to taxation.


The Tea Part -began- as a libertarian protest against certain government policies. It has been hijacked by the Republican Ultra Right, the religious crazies, the shi'ite Christians.

ruveyn

At first it was a libertarian protest against tax increases, and more importantly they were protesting against the bail outs for the banks. The early tea partiers may of very well been a part of the Wall Street protests. But since it's been hijacked by the religious nutjobs, they won't be caught dead with "those damn dope smoking hippie satanists".



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09 Oct 2011, 10:58 pm

I come from a middle class german irish family so yes I care about politics where smarter then you think :roll:



Inuyasha
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09 Oct 2011, 11:07 pm

There have been 700+ arrests (protesters getting violent and/or breaking laws) due to Occupy Wallstreet movements while there were 0 arrests associated with the tea party, enough said.



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09 Oct 2011, 11:38 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Jacoby's analysis is also relatively dishonest. The Occupy WallStreeters didn't start protesting until Sept. 17, 2011. The Tea Partisans were around for a longer period of time (and, indeed, were initially planned as an extension of the "Ron Paul Revolution" after the candidate failed to win the nomination in 2008, somewhat before the healthcare proposal was fleshed out) before the various strands of the movement converged onto opposition to healthcare reform and (with Kock influence) a generic opposition to taxation.


It started as a moneybomb on the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party back in 2007 iirc but the point was that their message was more coherent which it is. The role of corporate money doesn't really mean anything, what are they protesting specifically? What is their goal? Dylan Ratigan, bless his heart, has been talking about some constitutional amendment banning political contributions to federal campaigns which is quite frankly stupid. You have fat man Michael Moore trying to get in front of it trying to say they want to bring an end to capitalism who is the very essence of capitalist excess.

Being against health insurance reform(health insurance enrichment is probably a more appropriate term), the bailouts, the stimulus, are all pretty clear cut things and anti-corporatist as anything. The original spirit of the Tea Party didn't completely die tho, there were a ton of great candidates in 2010 and some got elected such as Rand Paul, Mike Lee, Justin Amash.

Money in politics isn't the problem tho, it's the power that Washington and the Fed that is the problem. These special interests, corporations, etc. would have nothing to spend their money on if the powers they're trying to influence didn't exist. Not exactly what someone who wants an all encompassing unitary nanny state wants to hear but it is what it is.

Honestly, a good portion of the protesters seem to be protesting their student loans that they probably got ill-thought out degrees in like philosophy and art with.



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10 Oct 2011, 2:39 am

Jacoby wrote:
Being against health insurance reform(health insurance enrichment is probably a more appropriate term), the bailouts, the stimulus, are all pretty clear cut things and anti-corporatist as anything. The original spirit of the Tea Party didn't completely die tho, there were a ton of great candidates in 2010 and some got elected such as Rand Paul, Mike Lee, Justin Amash.

Money in politics isn't the problem tho, it's the power that Washington and the Fed that is the problem. These special interests, corporations, etc. would have nothing to spend their money on if the powers they're trying to influence didn't exist. Not exactly what someone who wants an all encompassing unitary nanny state wants to hear but it is what it is.

Honestly, a good portion of the protesters seem to be protesting their student loans that they probably got ill-thought out degrees in like philosophy and art with.


What do you propose we that replace the major federal agencies with?

"Nothing" is not a valid answer. Central banking is necessary in the current world economy.

The way i see it, corporate interests will subvert any position they can get their grimy paws on. Even if it's a private not-for-profit.

It's late, so i don't remember the specifics, but there is (or was) a bicycle safety/advocacy group that was founded by avid cyclists to promote effective standards in the interest of cyclists. Things like limiting the use of rumble strips on roads that are not major highways, and discouraging cities from designing streets where the bicycle lane is between the road and parallel parking (because these streets kill a lot of cyclists).

Some bicycle manufacturers got involved - they promised to bring money and corporate resources to the aid of private cyclists and managed to get themselves situated into all the meaningful leadership positions in the organization.

And then commenced advocating for business as usual.



ruveyn
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10 Oct 2011, 7:34 am

blauSamstag wrote:

"Nothing" is not a valid answer. Central banking is necessary in the current world economy.



Unfortunate but true. That is the effect of replacing metal standard money with fiat money. The quantity has to be regulated centrally else inflation will run rampant.

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10 Oct 2011, 8:50 am

Inuyasha wrote:
There have been 700+ arrests (protesters getting violent and/or breaking laws) due to Occupy Wallstreet movements while there were 0 arrests associated with the tea party, enough said.


Quote:
New York City Police Foundation — New York

Beginning in 2010, JPMorgan Chase donated technology, time and resources valued at $4.6 million to the New York City Police Foundation, including 1,000 new patrol car laptops. The gift was the largest in the history of the foundation and will enable the New York City Police Department to strengthen security in the Big Apple.

New York City Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly sent CEO and Chairman Jamie Dimon a note expressing "profound gratitude" for the company's donation.

"These officers put their lives on the line every day to keep us safe," Dimon said. "We're incredibly proud to help them build this program and let them know how much we value their hard work."

http://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/ ... /ny-13.htm

Wall Street is paying for enhanced security, both directly and indirectly.

Most of those arrests were from the Brooklyn Bridge incident. It's true that this is not a pedestrian bridge, but to paint this as a violent event is disingenuous.



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10 Oct 2011, 1:44 pm

number5 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
There have been 700+ arrests (protesters getting violent and/or breaking laws) due to Occupy Wallstreet movements while there were 0 arrests associated with the tea party, enough said.


Quote:
New York City Police Foundation — New York

Beginning in 2010, JPMorgan Chase donated technology, time and resources valued at $4.6 million to the New York City Police Foundation, including 1,000 new patrol car laptops. The gift was the largest in the history of the foundation and will enable the New York City Police Department to strengthen security in the Big Apple.

New York City Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly sent CEO and Chairman Jamie Dimon a note expressing "profound gratitude" for the company's donation.

"These officers put their lives on the line every day to keep us safe," Dimon said. "We're incredibly proud to help them build this program and let them know how much we value their hard work."

http://www.jpmorganchase.com/corporate/ ... /ny-13.htm

Wall Street is paying for enhanced security, both directly and indirectly.

Most of those arrests were from the Brooklyn Bridge incident. It's true that this is not a pedestrian bridge, but to paint this as a violent event is disingenuous.


There was violence at the Air & Space Museum.