direct democracy

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dc has suggested, following an exchange in the "what system is better?" thread, that we spin of a new topic to discuss the merits of direct democracy.

the exchange arose out of my bringing up the corrupting influence of power. basing my point on bakunin's "power corrupts the best", i proposed that corruption is inevitable in any system of representative democracy.

dc countered by suggesting that the swiss model of incorporating elements of direct democracy into a representative system might mitigate the tendency towards corruption.

so, what are people's thoughts on this?

Direct Democracy in any society where most people are strangers to each other is a political cluster f**k.

It is legalized mob rule.

ruveyn

Direct democracy is the enemy of civil liberties.

The opportunity for the majority to censor speech that it finds offensive, criminalize behaviour that it finds offensive, and create systemic barriers to full participation by minority populations that it finds offensive.

Direct democracy gave California Proposition 8. This is not a model to be emulated.

this is another obvious issue with it. but this notion suggests that people are stupid, and do not deserve to govern themselves. i am slightly uncomfortable with this.

having discussed the swiss system at length with a swiss gentleman, he is of the belief that what you point out above is not a particular problem in switzerland. i'm far from an expert on swiss systems of governance, so i don't know for sure, but a cursory google search didn't throw up very much.

if this is indeed the case, why do you think it might be? a more mild-mannered population, perhaps? that the swiss may be generally more civilised?

In a less charitable moment, I would suggest that the Swiss gentleman is either a liar or an idiot. But perhaps he is merely being disingenuous, or has conveniently forgotten the results of the referendum on minarets. No less a targeted, bigoted exercise in the tyrrany of the majority than Proposition 8.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_refe ... ember_2009

Note that this was not some veiled attempt under the guise of height restrictions, or other land use limitations. No, this was a direct statement that minarets would be constitutionally banned in Switzerland, whilst steeples would remain perfectly legal.

I see two advantages of representative democracy. The first is that we--the electorate--hire people to dedicate their whole effort to the understanding of matters of public policy, and to the use of their judgement to make decisions to guide and limit the functions of government, and we subject them to periodic scrutiny. Individuals have too many competing demands on their time to be full time legislators, as well.

The second advantage is that the imposition of the rule of law on a legislature is significantly easier to undertake. It is intuitively understood that legislatures are subject to political and partisan pressures that may result in legislation that is not fully compliant with the constitution. The exercise of judicial review is not merely validated, but necessitated. But there is a much weaker argument when direct action has been taken by the entire body politic. If the majority of a jurisdiction chooses to use its power to amend its constitution, can that action be constrained in any way by the courts?

disingenuous perhaps as he was, although clearly highly intelligent, a rather odd character who at times did appear rather detached.



right, i'm not sure how this evaded me this evening as this indeed was a point of contention in the discussion. i've been enjoying a bottle of wine this evening after receiving some positive news at work, so that may be a factor.. he didn't attempt to mitigate this incident, as i recall the discussion though he did to try and down-play it in some way, although i don't recall the details. my cohabitation with the gentleman in question coincided with this event.

okay, we have a prime exemplar of clear bigotry in the swiss system.

this is a major point of contention for me, and i need to be very conscious of avoiding cognitive dissonance over it. it's likely obvious from my posting here of late that i am very much a proponent of self governance. the problem, as i see it, that is inherent in this is that the majority of the populace, in the western milieu, exist in a state of ignorance. before any kind of societal improvement, obviously in my own opinion, a major shift is required in the general mindstate of the masses. at present, the proletariat exist in, as i would put it, a capitalist inspired delusion. class consciousness is all but ignored, and this needs to change before society can achieve any sort of progress.



i am unsure as to whether you were taking part in the thread that led to this spin off, but in the interest of brevity, i will simply state that i have no trust in representative democracy, and it can be summed up by directing you to [/quote]this document



well, i feel you will likely wholeheartedly disagree with my position on this, however my original intention with my "is jehovah a tyrant" post was to make a post commenting on law and whether or whether not it is an ass. in fact, reference to the document linked above might give you some insight in terms of my feelings on legislative bodies. i am generally of the belief that the people need to take matters into their own hands, organise on a local level, and, in general, dispense of rule from above.



i am of the hope that this post makes some sort of sense. as previously indicated, i was at that point in time slightly inebriated on wine, i am now heartily tucking into some czech beer i had in the fridge, and am close to being, by my own reckoning, beyond the point of coherence. i am confident that i am making sense, but if reality indicates otherwise i will deal with my frivolity in the morning. i would also add that at times such as this things can go either of two ways. either assured clarity in terms of my general outlook, or incoherent nonsense. i will await morning to interpret the direction which my thought has taken...