The genetic relatedness of different European nationalities

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naturalplastic
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08 Feb 2012, 4:38 pm

Vigilans wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Most Europeans are related, linguistically or genetically, with the notable exception of the Basque people of Navarre, who have been there longer than anyone else


I would argue the Basque are quite closely related to the Welsh.


:? why? That would be incorrect in any case, the Basque have been extensively researched and this is the first time I have ever heard mention of a Welsh connection.


I dont see any connection either.
If there is any it is not linguistic.

The origin of the Basques is unknown.

Welsh is virtually the same language as Breton- the celtic language spoken at the pointed end of France that juts into the Atlantic. Both the Bretons andthe Welsh are of known origins- both are remnants of the "Britons" the Celtic inhabitants of Britain conquered by the Romans- but were then forced to flee the parts of Britain siezed by the German ic Anglo Saxons after the fall of Rome ( the parts that are now 'England'). Welsh is more distantly related to Irish and Scottish ( also celtic). And all of the Celtic languages are a subset of the Indo European languages.

Basque is a linguistic isolate. Like Hungarian and Finnish it is not Indo European. But unlike those two (which are distant cousins of each other and with certain aboriginal languages in Siberia) Basque is not related to ANY other language.

The Basques may have been the original europeans- descended directly from the Cro Magnons. The Welsh were clearly part the latter invaders from the east -along with all of the other IndoEuropean speakers.



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09 Feb 2012, 3:43 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Most Europeans are related, linguistically or genetically, with the notable exception of the Basque people of Navarre, who have been there longer than anyone else


I would argue the Basque are quite closely related to the Welsh.


:? why? That would be incorrect in any case, the Basque have been extensively researched and this is the first time I have ever heard mention of a Welsh connection.


I dont see any connection either.
If there is any it is not linguistic.

The origin of the Basques is unknown.

Welsh is virtually the same language as Breton- the celtic language spoken at the pointed end of France that juts into the Atlantic. Both the Bretons andthe Welsh are of known origins- both are remnants of the "Britons" the Celtic inhabitants of Britain conquered by the Romans- but were then forced to flee the parts of Britain siezed by the German ic Anglo Saxons after the fall of Rome ( the parts that are now 'England'). Welsh is more distantly related to Irish and Scottish ( also celtic). And all of the Celtic languages are a subset of the Indo European languages.

Basque is a linguistic isolate. Like Hungarian and Finnish it is not Indo European. But unlike those two (which are distant cousins of each other and with certain aboriginal languages in Siberia) Basque is not related to ANY other language.

The Basques may have been the original europeans- descended directly from the Cro Magnons. The Welsh were clearly part the latter invaders from the east -along with all of the other IndoEuropean speakers.


Forgive me for the correction, but the notion that the Basques are descended from Cro Magnons has more recently been refuted. The R1b haplogroup primarily representing the Basque, as well as the majority of west Europeans, had until a few years ago been thought to have been traceable to the last Ice Age. Then recently, R1b was found to have had arrived in Europe with the Neolithic, representing the agriculturalists who had replaced previous populations. While most linguists argue that Basque is indeed a Non-Indo-European language, it had been taken for granted that that must mean that the Basque people must have Upper Paleolithic origins. Then there is the minority argument that Basque language may not be so alien to the rest of Europe.
The current opinion is that haplogroup I is most likely datable to the last Ice Age, and thus can be associated with the Cro Magnons. While hpl I can be found to one degree or another among most Europeans, it's strongest firstly in the mountains of the the Balkans, and secondly in Germanic northwest Europe, though it decreases the further south you get among south Germans, Austrians, and Swiss. Added to that, to one degree or another, in the Neolithic and Bronze Age came the R1b agriculturalists, and the R1a steppe nomads - bringing their language and way of life - among what would eventually become the Germanic tribes. It should be remembered, only two thirds of Germanic languages can be attributable to an Indo-European origin. The roots of that extra one third maybe Upper Paleolithic in origin, but that's only speculation.
As for the Welsh having Basque roots - I recall reading that, as well. It should be remembered, Celtic is primarily a linguistic term. Then one of material culture. And when you get to a Celtic ethnicity, it has to be accepted that in many cases, language and culture can -and has - been transmitted to other populations by either invasion or peaceable migration of relatively smaller groups. It's very possible - if not likely - that people likened to the Basque had immigrated to the British Isles much earlier from what is today Spain and south France had been Indo-Europeanized by the Bell Beaker People (who may have been Proto-Celts) in the Bronze Age, and later by the Celtic (possibly Celto-Germanic) Belgae during the Iron Age. That doesn't mean that the people of Wales and eastern England aren't real Celts, but rather that being Celtic is more a matter of language and culture than it does blood.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Mummy_of_Peanut
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09 Feb 2012, 6:26 am

I watched a TV programme recently about UK history/ genetics. It was said that you could basically split the UK in half, from top to bottom, and the genetic difference between the 2 halves was quite significant. The people from the west are more closely related to the others from the western fringes of Europe, e.g. North West Spain, than they are to those from the eastern UK. This can't be seen on the map in the original post as UK is lumped together as one group.

I love this stuff (special interest).


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DC
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09 Feb 2012, 10:13 am

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I watched a TV programme recently about UK history/ genetics. It was said that you could basically split the UK in half, from top to bottom, and the genetic difference between the 2 halves was quite significant. The people from the west are more closely related to the others from the western fringes of Europe, e.g. North West Spain, than they are to those from the eastern UK. This can't be seen on the map in the original post as UK is lumped together as one group.

I love this stuff (special interest).


What was it called, I like this stuff aswell and I must have missed that one. :(



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09 Feb 2012, 12:26 pm

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I watched a TV programme recently about UK history/ genetics. It was said that you could basically split the UK in half, from top to bottom, and the genetic difference between the 2 halves was quite significant. The people from the west are more closely related to the others from the western fringes of Europe, e.g. North West Spain, than they are to those from the eastern UK. This can't be seen on the map in the original post as UK is lumped together as one group.

I love this stuff (special interest).


What irritates me is some people think even talking about this stuff is racist. :hmph:



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09 Feb 2012, 12:51 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I watched a TV programme recently about UK history/ genetics. It was said that you could basically split the UK in half, from top to bottom, and the genetic difference between the 2 halves was quite significant. The people from the west are more closely related to the others from the western fringes of Europe, e.g. North West Spain, than they are to those from the eastern UK. This can't be seen on the map in the original post as UK is lumped together as one group.

I love this stuff (special interest).


What irritates me is some people think even talking about this stuff is racist. :hmph:


Unfortunately, racists have highjacked such genetic research, which they use on their embarrassing internet sites in order to promote white separatism and supremacy. And so people with a legitimate interest in genetics often feel they're painted with the same tainted brush as those mouth breathing bigots.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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09 Feb 2012, 2:39 pm

DC wrote:
Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I watched a TV programme recently about UK history/ genetics. It was said that you could basically split the UK in half, from top to bottom, and the genetic difference between the 2 halves was quite significant. The people from the west are more closely related to the others from the western fringes of Europe, e.g. North West Spain, than they are to those from the eastern UK. This can't be seen on the map in the original post as UK is lumped together as one group.

I love this stuff (special interest).


What was it called, I like this stuff aswell and I must have missed that one. :(

I'm pretty sure it was 'A History of Ancient Britain', presented by Neil Oliver.


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09 Feb 2012, 2:54 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I watched a TV programme recently about UK history/ genetics. It was said that you could basically split the UK in half, from top to bottom, and the genetic difference between the 2 halves was quite significant. The people from the west are more closely related to the others from the western fringes of Europe, e.g. North West Spain, than they are to those from the eastern UK. This can't be seen on the map in the original post as UK is lumped together as one group.

I love this stuff (special interest).


What irritates me is some people think even talking about this stuff is racist. :hmph:


Unfortunately, racists have highjacked such genetic research, which they use on their embarrassing internet sites in order to promote white separatism and supremacy. And so people with a legitimate interest in genetics often feel they're painted with the same tainted brush as those mouth breathing bigots.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

It is really unfortunate and sad. I had worried that this thread might turn a bit like that and I admit I'm watching with my moderator hat on. I'm really interested in this subject because of the health implications for people with various genetic inheritances (e.g. type 2 diabetes in Afro-Carribeans, coeliac disease incidence in Irish, lactose intolerance and alcohol metabolism). I believe if we knew more about where our genes came from, we could eat accordingly and avoid many diseases. I'm the most non-racist person you could ever meet and disgusted by anyone who claims superiority of certain races.


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09 Feb 2012, 2:59 pm

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I watched a TV programme recently about UK history/ genetics. It was said that you could basically split the UK in half, from top to bottom, and the genetic difference between the 2 halves was quite significant. The people from the west are more closely related to the others from the western fringes of Europe, e.g. North West Spain, than they are to those from the eastern UK. This can't be seen on the map in the original post as UK is lumped together as one group.

I love this stuff (special interest).


What irritates me is some people think even talking about this stuff is racist. :hmph:


Unfortunately, racists have highjacked such genetic research, which they use on their embarrassing internet sites in order to promote white separatism and supremacy. And so people with a legitimate interest in genetics often feel they're painted with the same tainted brush as those mouth breathing bigots.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

It is really unfortunate and sad. I had worried that this thread might turn a bit like that and I admit I'm watching with my moderator hat on. I'm really interested in this subject because of the health implications for people with various genetic inheritances (e.g. type 2 diabetes in Afro-Carribeans, coeliac disease incidence in Irish, lactose intolerance and alcohol metabolism). I believe if we knew more about where our genes came from, we could eat accordingly and avoid many diseases. I'm the most non-racist person you could ever meet and disgusted by anyone who claims superiority of certain races.


Oh, absolutely. And there is nothing wrong with just wanting to know something about your ethnic heritage.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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09 Feb 2012, 3:55 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
There's a book on the subject by archaeogeneticist Bryan Sykes called The Seven Daughters of Eve.
He gets into other topics as well, such as the origin of the first settlers of Polynesia.
Pretty fascinating- highly recommend.

I have that book and found it fascinating.


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09 Feb 2012, 4:13 pm

Differences in race amongst various "white" peoples is interesting.
In college, I was told that folks in Nothern Ireland can tell who's Catholic (primarily Celtic or 'native' Irish) and who's Protestant (English/Anglo descent) just by looking at each other. I couldn't imagine how that could be, at the time. Later, I lived in Ireland for a couple of years. I found that Irish people have certain shapes of noses, eyes, ears, hairlines, etc. It was fascinating to me because, as an American, I'd been used to seeing all types of Europeans blended together into one big white race. Now I can see that Germans have a look, and Italians have a look, etc.
Kind of sad that Europeans are all lumped together as "whites" when race is mentioned. I'm sure it's the same for "blacks" and "Asians" too. A Japanese person doesn't look just like a Korean, and people from different regions of Africa have different characteristics, too.
Ooh, that reminds me of a documentary I saw once. A scientist (anthropologist? I'm not sure what kind of scientist) was using regional race characteristics to help African-Americans find out which part of Africa their ancestors came from.
It's all very interesting, and I agree that being interested in race does not make one a racist.



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09 Feb 2012, 4:29 pm

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
DC wrote:
Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I watched a TV programme recently about UK history/ genetics. It was said that you could basically split the UK in half, from top to bottom, and the genetic difference between the 2 halves was quite significant. The people from the west are more closely related to the others from the western fringes of Europe, e.g. North West Spain, than they are to those from the eastern UK. This can't be seen on the map in the original post as UK is lumped together as one group.

I love this stuff (special interest).


What was it called, I like this stuff aswell and I must have missed that one. :(

I'm pretty sure it was 'A History of Ancient Britain', presented by Neil Oliver.



Ta.

Yay for youtube!

That is my evening's viewing sorted then, pass the popcorn. :)

Image

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rTqBjMn1w4[/youtube]



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09 Feb 2012, 4:42 pm

I hope I'm right and you don't waste an evening. It's definitely a Neil Oliver programme anyway.


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09 Feb 2012, 4:43 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I watched a TV programme recently about UK history/ genetics. It was said that you could basically split the UK in half, from top to bottom, and the genetic difference between the 2 halves was quite significant. The people from the west are more closely related to the others from the western fringes of Europe, e.g. North West Spain, than they are to those from the eastern UK. This can't be seen on the map in the original post as UK is lumped together as one group.

I love this stuff (special interest).


What irritates me is some people think even talking about this stuff is racist. :hmph:


Unfortunately, racists have highjacked such genetic research, which they use on their embarrassing internet sites in order to promote white separatism and supremacy. And so people with a legitimate interest in genetics often feel they're painted with the same tainted brush as those mouth breathing bigots.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

It is really unfortunate and sad. I had worried that this thread might turn a bit like that and I admit I'm watching with my moderator hat on. I'm really interested in this subject because of the health implications for people with various genetic inheritances (e.g. type 2 diabetes in Afro-Carribeans, coeliac disease incidence in Irish, lactose intolerance and alcohol metabolism). I believe if we knew more about where our genes came from, we could eat accordingly and avoid many diseases. I'm the most non-racist person you could ever meet and disgusted by anyone who claims superiority of certain races.


Oh, absolutely. And there is nothing wrong with just wanting to know something about your ethnic heritage.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


And yet you think there's something wrong with a person wanting their own ethnic group or race to have a future. (Or is that only if the person is white?)



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09 Feb 2012, 4:47 pm

So much for race being a social construct. Where are the Hottentots and Papuans on that gene map of Europe?



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09 Feb 2012, 4:51 pm

So anyway, dragging the thread away from oh-so-controversial areas for fear of it getting shut down ... I have long found it interesting that the Finnish and the Hungarian languages are supposedly similar since the Finns and Hungarians are not especially close genetically (in European terms).