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Master_Pedant
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02 Mar 2012, 11:21 pm

ruveyn wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Newt Gingrich didn't get on the VIrginia ballot because he turned in 1,500 fake names. Should we tar and feather him or just assume that overly eager signature getters cut some corners?

.


Absolutely. When people are made to answer for their lack of care, they will care more in the future.

Bring back flogging and the stocks!

ruveyn


You know, ruveyn, for someone who likes to whine about government inefficiency all the time, you sure seem happy with some of the perverse incentives that go on in many departments. Namely, the excessive concern with any procedural error to the point where process trumps results or to the point where the marginal cost of particular safeguards way outweigh the marginal benefit.

But please, ruveyn, ignore reality yet again and go read summaries of Hobbes for the 1000th time, thinking that it'll spur something new in your mind.


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techstepgenr8tion
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02 Mar 2012, 11:24 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
So I'll take it in faith then that every individual employees fraud consisted of names that were as supernatural as Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, Errol Flynn, Dirk Diggler for the sake of getting one over on their bosses and not having any of the entries listed filled out by anyone.


Even if they didn't. Even if they turned in forms for people who were dead or nonexistent.

What was the effect? Someone still has to show up at the polling place with valid ID.

That's just it though, dead and nonexistent people *do* vote all the time. That's nothing new either.


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blauSamstag
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02 Mar 2012, 11:26 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
So I'll take it in faith then that every individual employees fraud consisted of names that were as supernatural as Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, Errol Flynn, Dirk Diggler for the sake of getting one over on their bosses and not having any of the entries listed filled out by anyone.


Even if they didn't. Even if they turned in forms for people who were dead or nonexistent.

What was the effect? Someone still has to show up at the polling place with valid ID.

That's just it though, dead and nonexistent people *do* vote all the time. That's nothing new either.



And if Acorn suspected that forms had been filled out as part of a conspiracy to commit voter fraud, what should they have done about it?



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03 Mar 2012, 12:05 am

simon_says wrote:
Well, he says it was fraud committed by one guy he paid and that it was ultimately "just a mistake". And he's white so that should be good enough. I'm sure the fake names even sounded white so that's doubly cool.

Of course, I believe that these invisible people will steal our nuclear secrets and destroy the Republic. I don't have evidence of it, but that's what I believe and no facts will ever change my mind.


Well, I suppose as long as Newt is white...

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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03 Mar 2012, 7:28 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
That's just it though, dead and nonexistent people *do* vote all the time. That's nothing new either.


In Chicago and Boston the dead vote early and often.

ruveyn



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03 Mar 2012, 2:04 pm

ruveyn wrote:
LKL wrote:
You don't have to take that on faith; what you should accept is the evidence that ACORN itself did not commit fraud, but was defrauded by some of its employees and did its best to make sure that no actual voter fraud occurred. Unlike Breitbart's pal O'Keefe:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2012/01/11/ ... il-for-it/


The boss bears full and total responsibility for whatever any of his employees do. The wrong doing happened on his watch. He gets to climb the scaffold.

If we hold management responsible for what the crew does, then perhaps they will be more careful in who they hire.

ruveyn

BS. Employees are human beings, not computer programs designed by their employer.



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03 Mar 2012, 5:38 pm

LKL wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
LKL wrote:
You don't have to take that on faith; what you should accept is the evidence that ACORN itself did not commit fraud, but was defrauded by some of its employees and did its best to make sure that no actual voter fraud occurred. Unlike Breitbart's pal O'Keefe:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2012/01/11/ ... il-for-it/


The boss bears full and total responsibility for whatever any of his employees do. The wrong doing happened on his watch. He gets to climb the scaffold.

If we hold management responsible for what the crew does, then perhaps they will be more careful in who they hire.

ruveyn

BS. Employees are human beings, not computer programs designed by their employer.


Seconded!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



blauSamstag
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03 Mar 2012, 8:44 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
So I'll take it in faith then that every individual employees fraud consisted of names that were as supernatural as Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck, Errol Flynn, Dirk Diggler for the sake of getting one over on their bosses and not having any of the entries listed filled out by anyone.


Even if they didn't. Even if they turned in forms for people who were dead or nonexistent.

What was the effect? Someone still has to show up at the polling place with valid ID.

That's just it though, dead and nonexistent people *do* vote all the time. That's nothing new either.



And if Acorn suspected that forms had been filled out as part of a conspiracy to commit voter fraud, what should they have done about it?


Can we assume that you haven't answered because there was nothing ACORN could legally do about it? They did as much as they could. If a form was suspect they put it in a different stack, but what the election staff do with the forms once they're picked up is out of ACORN's control.



marshall
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03 Mar 2012, 9:00 pm

ruveyn wrote:
LKL wrote:
You don't have to take that on faith; what you should accept is the evidence that ACORN itself did not commit fraud, but was defrauded by some of its employees and did its best to make sure that no actual voter fraud occurred. Unlike Breitbart's pal O'Keefe:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2012/01/11/ ... il-for-it/


The boss bears full and total responsibility for whatever any of his employees do. The wrong doing happened on his watch. He gets to climb the scaffold.

If we hold management responsible for what the crew does, then perhaps they will be more careful in who they hire.

ruveyn

In that case Florida's governor should be in jail.



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03 Mar 2012, 9:19 pm

marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
LKL wrote:
You don't have to take that on faith; what you should accept is the evidence that ACORN itself did not commit fraud, but was defrauded by some of its employees and did its best to make sure that no actual voter fraud occurred. Unlike Breitbart's pal O'Keefe:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2012/01/11/ ... il-for-it/


The boss bears full and total responsibility for whatever any of his employees do. The wrong doing happened on his watch. He gets to climb the scaffold.

If we hold management responsible for what the crew does, then perhaps they will be more careful in who they hire.

ruveyn

In that case Florida's governor should be in jail.


Should be, but will he ever be? Jeb Bush may, after all, run for prez someday!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



marshall
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03 Mar 2012, 9:38 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
marshall wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
LKL wrote:
You don't have to take that on faith; what you should accept is the evidence that ACORN itself did not commit fraud, but was defrauded by some of its employees and did its best to make sure that no actual voter fraud occurred. Unlike Breitbart's pal O'Keefe:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2012/01/11/ ... il-for-it/


The boss bears full and total responsibility for whatever any of his employees do. The wrong doing happened on his watch. He gets to climb the scaffold.

If we hold management responsible for what the crew does, then perhaps they will be more careful in who they hire.

ruveyn

In that case Florida's governor should be in jail.


Should be, but will he ever be? Jeb Bush may, after all, run for prez someday!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I'm talking about Florida's current medicare-fraudster governor who makes Jeb Bush look like Mother Teresa.



techstepgenr8tion
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03 Mar 2012, 9:40 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
Can we assume that you haven't answered because there was nothing ACORN could legally do about it? They did as much as they could. If a form was suspect they put it in a different stack, but what the election staff do with the forms once they're picked up is out of ACORN's control.

I haven't answered because I can see that this is going in circles. Its pretty much a 'I'd rather feel x than y' kind of thing based on political affiliation and attitude on ACORN and what they stand for. I've done research on this, its been a while since I have so I'd have to go back and read more on them (which, this weekend I've had my hands full completing a heck of a tune - that takes priority), but overall my nonresponse was a sign that I just didn't feel like chasing it further - IMO it wasn't worth the effort.


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03 Mar 2012, 11:00 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Can we assume that you haven't answered because there was nothing ACORN could legally do about it? They did as much as they could. If a form was suspect they put it in a different stack, but what the election staff do with the forms once they're picked up is out of ACORN's control.

I haven't answered because I can see that this is going in circles. Its pretty much a 'I'd rather feel x than y' kind of thing based on political affiliation and attitude on ACORN and what they stand for. I've done research on this, its been a while since I have so I'd have to go back and read more on them (which, this weekend I've had my hands full completing a heck of a tune - that takes priority), but overall my nonresponse was a sign that I just didn't feel like chasing it further - IMO it wasn't worth the effort.


I just figure that ACORNs worst sin was helping poor people, and republicans hate that.



techstepgenr8tion
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03 Mar 2012, 11:05 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Can we assume that you haven't answered because there was nothing ACORN could legally do about it? They did as much as they could. If a form was suspect they put it in a different stack, but what the election staff do with the forms once they're picked up is out of ACORN's control.

I haven't answered because I can see that this is going in circles. Its pretty much a 'I'd rather feel x than y' kind of thing based on political affiliation and attitude on ACORN and what they stand for. I've done research on this, its been a while since I have so I'd have to go back and read more on them (which, this weekend I've had my hands full completing a heck of a tune - that takes priority), but overall my nonresponse was a sign that I just didn't feel like chasing it further - IMO it wasn't worth the effort.


I just figure that ACORNs worst sin was helping poor people, and republicans hate that.

Right, and that's why we can't have much of a conversation. We live in completely different worlds.


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03 Mar 2012, 11:34 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Can we assume that you haven't answered because there was nothing ACORN could legally do about it? They did as much as they could. If a form was suspect they put it in a different stack, but what the election staff do with the forms once they're picked up is out of ACORN's control.

I haven't answered because I can see that this is going in circles. Its pretty much a 'I'd rather feel x than y' kind of thing based on political affiliation and attitude on ACORN and what they stand for. I've done research on this, its been a while since I have so I'd have to go back and read more on them (which, this weekend I've had my hands full completing a heck of a tune - that takes priority), but overall my nonresponse was a sign that I just didn't feel like chasing it further - IMO it wasn't worth the effort.


I just figure that ACORNs worst sin was helping poor people, and republicans hate that.

Right, and that's why we can't have much of a conversation. We live in completely different worlds.

It's the same kind of cynical reasoning as when you hear conservatives saying Democrats want people on welfare so they will have votes. Or that "Occupy" protests and such are purely about "envy" and wanting other people's money. Maybe if both sides would simultaneously stop the simplistic emotionally projectory accusations there could be more dialog. The problem though is that even after dropping all the rhetorical pretext there's often still a fundamental divide over certain values that can't be resolved through acknowledging facts and utilitarian arguments.



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03 Mar 2012, 11:41 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T94aJToB_M[/youtube]


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