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DC
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20 Mar 2012, 8:18 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
ok, here's the nitty gritty. a map that shows the rates of female homicide by country. and guess what? muslim countries that they have data for have fairly low rates of female homicide. have a look at some of europe and south america. it's quite a contrast.

http://www.genevadeclaration.org/filead ... 11_CH4.pdf

i wish there were statistics for more countries, but it's definitely an interesting snapshot.


hyperlexian wrote:
the rates of violence are the same, so there is no difference in the result. with or without religious sanction there is suffering.



Ok Hyperlexian, I've just read the whole document that you posted and I'm a little confused about how you draw your conclusions.

You see here is the Nitty Gritty. On the map basically there is zero data for all of Africa and zero data for the entire middle east. How on earth do derive the conclusions that you do when you have no data?


PS from your very same document I quote:

Quote:
Armed groups persistently target women who are
seen as breaking away from their traditional roles.
Numerous women in public positions have been
threatened, harassed, and killed. As reported by the
United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan:
Of five high-profile women interviewed in
2005 by a newspaper interested in covering
stories of Afghan women who wanted to
take a role in reconstructing their country,
three have been murdered and one had to
flee the country (UNAMA, 2009, p. 10).
Malalai Kakar, the highest-ranking female police
officer in Kandahar, was killed in September 2008,
allegedly because she was leading a unit of ten policewomen dealing with domestic violence (UNAMA,
2009, p. 11).
Young girls are also explicitly targeted with violence:
Insurgent groups have repeatedly attacked
education infrastructure in general and girls’
schools in particular. Security fears have
resulted in the closure of over 70% of schools
in Helmand province of Afghanistan (UNESCO,
2011, p. 15).
The Ministry of Women’s Affairs recorded 192 attacks
on schools by insurgent groups between July 2005
and February 2007 alone, including their looting,
burning, and total destruction. As a result of such
attacks, ‘parents fear sending their children to
school, especially daughters’ (MOWA, 2008, p. 11).
Today, only 66 girls are enrolled for every 100 boys
(UNESCO, 2011, p. 8).
Afghanistan suffers from extensive domestic violence directed against women.




You are actually using this document to justify your statement
hyperlexian wrote:
the rates of violence are the same, so there is no difference in the result.



Perhaps you can explain something to me, using either Canada or Britain as an example.

Where exactly are armed insurgents systematically destroying girl's schools in Canada or Britain?
Where exactly are the bodies of British or Canadian female politicians if they are subject to the same level of violence (your claim remember and your source of evidence)
Of five high profile women interviewed in 2005 three have been murdered and one forced to flee the country. You are seriously claiming that British women suffer this sort of persecution are you?


If you bother to read the evidence you post you will find lots of other problems with your interpretation of it.

Quote:
Another lethal scenario is the killing of a rape
victim in order to restore the family ‘honour’. For
example, in Libya women and girls who become
pregnant through rape run the risk of being murdered
by a family member in so-called ‘honour’ killings (Harter, 2011).
Other studies confirm that a
rape victim may be killed in defence of the family
‘honour’ (Ruggi, 1998; Faqir, 2001).



Oh dear, oh dear.

When making absurd claims defending Islam perhaps you should choose better sources in future. :lol:



AstroGeek
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20 Mar 2012, 8:41 pm

Wikipedia: Liberal Islam
Canadian Muslim Union
Wikipedia: Islamic Feminism

Quote:
The MCB [Muslim Council of Britain] supported the 'Islam is Peace' advertising campaign which aimed to "break down barriers of suspicion and division, challenge stereotypes, combat prejudice, and offer an opportunity for strengthening the values of respect, tolerance and peaceful co-existence."

Quote:
In April 2007, the MCB formally declared its support for the Equality Act, which outlaws discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation.
Source: Wikipedia: Muslim Council of Britain

Islam will go through the same changes that Christianity went through. It might be slow but I'm pretty sure it will happen.

As for arguing that Muslims shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to the West because their religion is barbaric, there are some important points that are overlooked. First, the violence that occasionally happens in Muslim Communities in the West would happen anyway had they not immigrated. However, in the West we have the laws to prosecute this violence (and I fully support that prosecution), the capability to reach out and help Islamic women and gays who are being persecuted in their community, and there is the possibility that Western modernity will seep into their culture; no matter how segregated they are, they'll have a hard time blocking out everything.



Joker
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20 Mar 2012, 8:48 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
Wikipedia: Liberal Islam
Canadian Muslim Union
Wikipedia: Islamic Feminism

Quote:
The MCB [Muslim Council of Britain] supported the 'Islam is Peace' advertising campaign which aimed to "break down barriers of suspicion and division, challenge stereotypes, combat prejudice, and offer an opportunity for strengthening the values of respect, tolerance and peaceful co-existence."

Quote:
In April 2007, the MCB formally declared its support for the Equality Act, which outlaws discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation.
Source: Wikipedia: Muslim Council of Britain

Islam will go through the same changes that Christianity went through. It might be slow but I'm pretty sure it will happen.

As for arguing that Muslims shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to the West because their religion is barbaric, there are some important points that are overlooked. First, the violence that occasionally happens in Muslim Communities in the West would happen anyway had they not immigrated. However, in the West we have the laws to prosecute this violence (and I fully support that prosecution), the capability to reach out and help Islamic women and gays who are being persecuted in their community, and there is the possibility that Western modernity will seep into their culture; no matter how segregated they are, they'll have a hard time blocking out everything.


I to think Islam will go threw those changes but unlikey that it will happen any time soon.



Tequila
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20 Mar 2012, 8:50 pm

Joker wrote:
I to think Islam will go threw those changes but unlikey that it will happen any time soon.


Agreed. There are some very sensible, liberal and sane Muslims out there - unfortunately, they're just not numerous enough and able enough to make themselves heard. Which is a shame.



Vigilans
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20 Mar 2012, 8:53 pm

I suspect the only lessening of the violent impact of Islam will be with its number of adherents shrinking


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Tequila
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20 Mar 2012, 8:57 pm

Vigilans wrote:
I suspect the only lessening of the violent impact of Islam will be with its number of adherents shrinking


In fact, a lot of the more sane and well-known European critics of Islamism that are Muslims feel increasingly alienated from their own religion and have considered or undertaken apostasy, as they are embarrassed and ashamed of the behaviour of their fellow Muslims and feel increasingly less Muslim and more Christian or agnostic/atheist by the day. There are communities for ex-Muslims in several countries, for those people that are sick and tired of religion in general (like us) and who just want to live in peace.



Joker
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20 Mar 2012, 9:00 pm

Vigilans wrote:
I suspect the only lessening of the violent impact of Islam will be with its number of adherents shrinking


I do not see that happening Islam is the second largest religion in the world and it is apart of the persian and arab culture much like how christianity is apart of the culture of europe.



Tequila
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20 Mar 2012, 9:02 pm

Joker wrote:
arab culture much like how christianity is apart of the culture of europe.


Yeah, but there's a difference between barely-existing Church of England-style nominal Christianity and the barbaric madness that holds sway in parts of Africa, most of the Middle East and part of the Indian subcontinent. Basically, in Muslim countries, the more secular and tolerant their brand of Islam is the better for everyone and, therefore, the more likelihood I will want to spend time there.

I'm not discounting that some Christians can be pretty obnoxious about their faith as well (though this is mostly in the U.S.).



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20 Mar 2012, 9:06 pm

Tequila wrote:
Joker wrote:
arab culture much like how christianity is apart of the culture of europe.


Yeah, but there's a difference between barely-existing Church of England-style nominal Christianity and the barbaric madness that holds sway in parts of Africa, most of the Middle East and part of the Indian subcontinent.


Indeed also lets not forget the barbaric things the first christians started doing liking slaughtering pagans forcing them to convert and giving women no rights

and treating them like property which is why christianity did what Judisam did became less violent and barbaric Islam needs to get to that point where they can

learn to become less violent and change their image the way jews and christians did.



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20 Mar 2012, 9:09 pm

Joker wrote:
learn to become less violent and change their image the way jews and christians did.


Exactly. The cultures of the countries where Islam is the main religion are often fine (and their food and churches are amazing) - it's the religion that is the problem.



Last edited by Tequila on 20 Mar 2012, 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

DC
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20 Mar 2012, 9:09 pm

Joker wrote:

I to think Islam will go threw those changes but unlikey that it will happen any time soon.


I doubt it.

There is an assumption in the west that there is a natural progression that follows our own history.

Society led by religion.
Enlightenment.
Industrialisation.
Secular liberalism.

Unfortunately recent history doesn't really support this progression.

Russia went free market and got oligarchy.
China went free market and stayed one party authoritarian.
Iran overthrew a dictator and went for theocracy.
Saudi got rich and became a theocratic kingdom.
USA is becoming more theocratic every decade since the sixties.
Egypt just overthrew a dictator and voted for the Muslim Brotherhood and Sharia.

As the oil runs out and islamic populations explode I predict things are going to get a whole lot nastier.



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20 Mar 2012, 9:40 pm

DC wrote:
You see here is the Nitty Gritty. On the map basically there is zero data for all of Africa and zero data for the entire middle east. How on earth do derive the conclusions that you do when you have no data?
there were some countries from the middle east represented. perhaps you need to brush up on your geography?

Quote:
You are actually using this document to justify your statement

yes, absolutely. the document also shows how prevalent the violence is in other countries.

Quote:
When making absurd claims defending Islam perhaps you should choose better sources in future. :lol:

my points were supported by that document. you went on some tangents with most of your points, and they had absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing.

here's more:
http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/ ... ort_BW.pdf

this report from the UN demonstrates that a woman in Australia was more than 35% more likely to have experienced physical violence in their lifetime than a woman in Egypt, and more women in New Zealand experience spousal abuse than Egypt.

women are more likely to be severely beaten by an intimate partner in Peru (a Christian country) than in Ethiopia (a Muslim nation), even though it is not sanctioned by the government.

24% of women in the United Kingdon have been sexually assaulted by their intimate partners. admittedly, that's less than half of the women in Ethipia, but still... if 1 in 4 women has been raped by a partner in the UK (and they would be mostly Christian women), then it seems like there are significant problems close to home. maybe work on fixing your internal problems before demonising other cultures or religions.


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20 Mar 2012, 9:57 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
Tequila wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
doesn't matter because people do it anyways.


There's a difference between something going on in a culture and it not being officially approved of and is stamped out wherever possible and the kind of women-hating dogma in place in places like, ooh, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

the rates of violence are the same, so there is no difference in the result. with or without religious sanction there is suffering.


You really don't think the religious sanction makes it worse?

I guess I know it's worse from having grown up religious.


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20 Mar 2012, 10:01 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Tequila wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
doesn't matter because people do it anyways.


There's a difference between something going on in a culture and it not being officially approved of and is stamped out wherever possible and the kind of women-hating dogma in place in places like, ooh, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

the rates of violence are the same, so there is no difference in the result. with or without religious sanction there is suffering.


You really don't think the religious sanction makes it worse?

I guess I know it's worse from having grown up religious.

i'd say it's.... different. if religion or a government were sheltering (or somehow responsible for) violence and sexual assault against women, then we should logically see much lower rates of it outside those protected areas. but we don't. so there is something else distinct from the religion that is causing the problems to happen. that is scary to me, because it's so.... amorphous. don't know what to pin it on.

for some reason it's so newsworthy when we hear about atrocities that are happening elsewhere, yet some of the same atrocities happen in our own backyards with no comment.


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20 Mar 2012, 10:04 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
You really don't think the religious sanction makes it worse?


I keep saying this. There's a massive difference between such things happening in a secular, liberal country where these disgusting acts are committed by individuals and where this mistreatment is reviled in the general culture (and where perpetrators are caught and punished) and one where it's an officially promoted part of the religious state culture.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.



Last edited by Tequila on 20 Mar 2012, 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

puddingmouse
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20 Mar 2012, 10:05 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
i'd say it's.... different. if religion or a government were sheltering (or somehow responsible for) violence and sexual assault against women, then we should logically see much lower rates of it outside those protected areas. but we don't. so there is something else distinct from the religion that is causing the problems to happen. that is scary to me, because it's so.... amorphous. don't know what to pin it on.

for some reason it's so newsworthy when we hear about atrocities that are happening elsewhere, yet some of the same atrocities happen in our own backyards with no comment.


You have a fair point, but have you considered how frequently domestic abuse is even going to be reported in a country like Pakistan? My bet is on less frequently than in the UK.


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