Are the Muslims really the biggest threat . . .

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The Middle East is screwed up in general, not just Muslims.



Just because it's legal doesn't mean no one will mind.



Okay, what should be done instead?



Again, rather disgusting generalization.



I agree with this completely. Your point being?

I think Tequila knows that he makes disgusting generalisations. I can't tell if he does this carelessly (e.g. "Muslims in the UK are violent", not clarifying that he means two Muslims rather than Muslims generally), or because he forgets exceptions exist at all, or because he is ill informed, or to further some kind of political point, or because he genuinely believes these things but later retracts them and clarifies because he doesn't want to be seen as a bigot. At the moment I am working on the assumption it is the first of those, though the second is equally plausible and the penultimate one wouldn't surprise me.

Thing is, stuff happens in a context. So if I go burn a Bible in front of a group of Christians, depending on the group, there would be at least shouting if not physical assault. But that would be in the context of, what, Richard Dawkins telling them how irrational they are (along with all other religions), and the government considering letting gays have equal rights to a civil marriage.

If I go burn a Koran in front of a group of Muslims, they may similarly be angry, or will physically attack me. But the context will be very different. Aside from the occasional sneering from Dawkins, they find themselves having to account for every bad thing any Muslim anywhere does. They find their spiritual and literal brothers and sisters being bombed and shot and attacked by UK armed forces, and other countries' murderous rulers propped up and fawned over by the UK government and UK corporations, they find slander in the press day in, day out. They face being exhorted to 'integrate' whilst being spat or jeered at, or attacked, if they walk down the street.

So burning the holy book of the respective religions is a similar act in itself, the context in which it would happen is very different.

Hey, Tequila - you're a Briton. Do you remember when we had to apologise for the actions of the far right, or on behalf of the people who were caught by police before being able to carry out their planned attacks on Muslims? Do you remember when we had to apologise for the actions of our democratically elected government, and how it directed our volunteer armed services?

@Hopper

I think the big problem is that people say "muslims" and argue about "muslims" rather than just laying it out there that it's not Muslims as people that's a problem. The problem is the texts of Islam. Just as the problem with Christians isn't about them as people, but about the barbaric nature of especially the old testament and the morally reprehensible new testament.

Where, other than an EDL march? It's not 1979 anymore.

EDIT: I'd just like to say that I know lots of white people are racist against Pakistanis and their opinions are disgusting and based in ignorance...but I didn't think that stuff still happened. I live in Moss Side, though. Even when I worked in Oldham, it didn't seem quite that bad.

This lady is crazy and burning the Quran is just as bad as burning the bible. This is another reason why I am not religious anymore. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htshvId51UE&feature=related[/youtube]

Well, I think the problem with Islam, like any other religion, is its ties to totalitarian structures, the hereditary government in the case of Saudi Muslims. I think religion takes a more benign nature, as the guy in your profile picture stated in Rights of Man, when these religious systems are liberated from being used as tools for oppressive government. American Muslims are, by in large, a testament to this.

Last edited by JNathanK on 08 Sep 2012, 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

+1

@Tequila

Take any of the hundreds of sentences youve written here on the PPR forum bashing muslims and take out the word "muslim", and replace it with the word "Pakistani" and not only would it be a more accurate description of the issues youre complaining about, but (b) You would sound remarkably like a coworker of mine here in the states when he complains about people in his home country "who come back from studying in Pakistan".

Your unlikely american ally here in complaining about the influence of Pakistan is a black african immigrant from Sierra Leone in West Africa who's first name happens to be "Mohammed" and who in fact is a Muslim.

We got to talking about the world situation and he says "people from my country come back from Pakistan with crazy ideas about Islam...the Koran says 'dress modestly', it doesnt say 'cover yourself head to toe'!"

Apparently the influence of Pakistan (its culture, and or particular twist on Islam) is as alienating to other Muslim countries as it is to the Brits. So the issues are more complex than just Islam per se.

Do you know, I would probably agree with that. It's not all Muslims I'm getting at - hell, there are definitely modernising tendencies in Muslim countries (see the likes of the courageous Saudi women drivers and so on). It's really the obsessive fetishisation of religion, the denial of religious freedom (Islamists in Indonesia and other countries are forcing the niqab and burqa on people, although Muslims there are valiantly resisting) and the focus on Sharia that really concerns me.

Your Sierra Leonean chap sounds like he has his head in the right place.

I don't want to ban the Quran like Wilders does (I've just read his book, and his posturing of "free speech" rings rather hollow when you consider that he wants to deny that freedom to his enemies). I just want it to cease not to be a major issue in our country, whether that's through courageous people apostasising (the punishment for that is death in Islam; the British Council of Ex-Muslims has some good videos on the trouble they face) or simply taking a much more relaxed attitude towards it (I'm thinking of groups like the - small - British Muslims for Secular Democracy here).

And as for Pakistani Muslims - yes, a lot of them do dress "their" women in hideous black tarpaulin outfits here. I notice that the people with their head furthest in the sand tend to come from places where there is no evidence of this kind of behaviour whatsoever.

But yes, a good proportion of 'British' (they don't act very British, most of them) Muslims are poorly-educated and from Pakistan and Bangladesh originally. Many of them bring over their wives and families from Pakistan/Bangladesh too, and have multiple wives (which is prohibited in UK law) and there is a high rate of cousin marriage. While this is legal (to make it illegal would definitely open us up to charges of hypocrisy, given our own royal family is heavily inbred), it definitely shouldn't be something that's encouraged. It would be looked on with revulsion by many if native non-Muslim Brits were doing it, so why the blind spot?

As for the likes of the EDL - you'll find though that most middle-class people have no time for them whatsoever and even many working class people think they're nasty bigots. It tends to be the margins where they gain support. I probably would call them more sectarian than racist (although some of their members undoubtedly are racist bigots, including neo-Nazis), although elements of hardline Muslims - and the joke of white "anti-fascists" - seem more than capable of bringing their own bile to the table as well. In general, the "anti-fascists" are more likely to kick off at EDL demonstrations than the EDL.

In general though, violent attacks on Muslims are rare here. Muslim antisemitism in a lot of Northern European countries is very, very high though.

Last edited by Tequila on 08 Sep 2012, 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

It's not just Pakistanis though unfortunately. It's across the Muslim world.

Most muslims are respectable citizens and more often than not tend to hold pacifist views. The biggest threat to humanity today is overpopulation and its consequences.

The U.S. is not overpopulated. In fact it is mostly empty.

ruveyn

Africa and parts of Asia is indeed overpopulated.

That holds even more so for Canada. If anything else, it's mainly places like England and Western Europe that are over-populated, especially places like Benelux.