Is God Santa Claus for adults?

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NAKnight
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02 Dec 2012, 7:58 pm

abacacus wrote:

NAKnight wrote:

Both of you are failing to confront the logic that is in front of you. Atheist permits me deciding my own values. I am simply engaging the logic. I can decide whatever I want to decide under your train of thought. This discussion has gone nowhere and both of you are acting like children. If you are not willing to have an adult discussion with me I will refuse to discuss the issues with you.

You are both failing to engage my argument by calling "Non-arguments" and things of the like. You are not willing to accept that my position is valid and still willing to fight me every step of the way.

I would consider you to take a deep breath and just walk away.

Best Regards,

Jake

We will confront the logic in front of us when you put some there. Atheism permits you your own morals and personal values. It does not permit you to throw aside established mathematics because you feel like it. The discussion has gone nowhere because you refuse to abandon an irrelevant argument.

You never gave us a situation with moral considerations for us to judge our stances and defend them. You never challenged any of our personal values. All you did was ramble on about something you show a tremendous lack of understanding of while refusing to acknowledge what we explained to you. You are unwilling to admit that while your position is valid, your supporting argument isn't. Despite how easy it would have been to provide me or TallyMan with a reasonable argument relevant to the topic at hand, you insisted on spouting nonsense no matter how many times you were corrected.

Furthermore, when I so much as asked you to provide the train of logic that would lead to anyone completely abandoning the established definition of numbers, you completely ignored my question. You showed yourself either unable or unwilling to come to your own arguments defence (or even to explain your argument in full) while simultaneously accusing us of refusing to defend ours, even as we asked you to provide us with a relevant argument, or at least grounded in logic.

You took a comment that I made, and proceeded to assume that logic is the same in any context. It isn't. The same logic does not apply to herding sheep as it does to roofing ones home, two topics that are about as connected to each other as morality and mathematics. Then you insisted, despite my corrections, that you were using my logic against me.

For the final time:

Atheism does not provide a moral framework. That has nothing to do with mathematics. The two topics are not relevant to each other in any way. There is no connection between them.

Okay.

There is no need to get angry. You are getting angry over essentially nothing. Calm down.

Like I said, an Atheist logic is whatever they make it out to be. They may accept reality the way they see it fit. But it doesn't hold water on the basis of the fact that it is morally subjective. Are you for certain there is no "God" how did you arrive to the conclusion?

Jake

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In The Morning to all Hams on the air, ships at sea, boots on the grounds, drones in the sky and all the Human Resources charged up and ready to go just the way the Government wants you to be..

Last edited by NAKnight on 02 Dec 2012, 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

abacacus
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02 Dec 2012, 7:59 pm

...what in that post seems angry? I'm simply explaining in greater detail because you seem to be incapable of understanding my point.

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NAKnight
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02 Dec 2012, 8:06 pm

abacacus wrote:

...what in that post seems angry? I'm simply explaining in greater detail because you seem to be incapable of understanding my point.

Your talking to me like I'm inferior to you. That's a start.

abacacus
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02 Dec 2012, 8:09 pm

NAKnight wrote:

abacacus wrote:

...what in that post seems angry? I'm simply explaining in greater detail because you seem to be incapable of understanding my point.

Your talking to me like I'm inferior to you. That's a start.

Because you've shown yourself to be incapable of understanding the point I'm making, which forces to simplify and repeat it to the point where you feel like I'm talking down to you.

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A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
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We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown.

NAKnight
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02 Dec 2012, 8:17 pm

Well, cool your jets and calm down your turning this into a full blown assault.
What point do you have to prove? That your right? There is no "God?"
Give yourself satisfaction that you've won again?

I don't object to you being an Atheist, your very firm in your beliefs.
I object to you calling others delusional though. You have a right to an opinion but you do not have a right to judge.
Just because I do not agree with you does not make me wrong, we can be wrong, you can be right but both of us cannnot be right.

Quite frankly, I do not know who I am personally. I'm the same in my religious beliefs as well.
I know much about myself to know that the possibility of a "Creator" is within the range of possibilities, simply because the amount of unanswered questions Science fails to prove. I also believe that there is more to this world than the "Here and now" It is to well designed to be created by chance, that is my opinion.
Calling others who don't believe delusional is bad PR for Atheist. I'm not even religious and that is harsh. Do you think your intellectually superior because you are one?

Best Regards,

Jake

abacacus
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02 Dec 2012, 8:20 pm

You're going off on an unrelated tangent again. I'm not calling you delusional (at least not at the moment), I'm saying that you continuously misunderstood my point despite my repeated simplifications of it.

Pray tell what that should lead me to conclude?

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A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
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We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown.

NAKnight
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02 Dec 2012, 8:25 pm

abacacus wrote:

You didn't prove any points. You were just talking. The bridge of communication was broke early in the discussion.
You talked down to me, called me delusional at one point. Not the best way to approach someone who disagrees.

Best Regards,

Jake

TallyMan
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03 Dec 2012, 4:52 am

NAKnight wrote:

TallyMan wrote:

One final attempt to communicate with you before I go to bed:

You seem to be under the illusion that because atheists don't have a rigid belief system imposed on us by a religious text that we are free to decide anything and everything. That is not the case. We can choose our own morality and values but what we can't choose is physical reality - what makes the world tick - physics, mathematics, chemistry, biology. The most important thing to us is reality and understanding reality. Reality is what it is. It doesn't come from a religious text. If analysis of facts in the real world reveals to us that 2 + 2 = 4 then that is the value we accept. We don't just pluck a belief out of the air and say "I'll believe this today or that tomorrow" - we accept what reality shows us is the truth. We accept facts. Verifiable facts that can be repeated and demonstrated to be correct .

Right, I'm off to bed now.

That's what I've been looking for. Thank you. I've been trying to find out that for the whole night! This discussion came onto a full-blown assault.

Good!

The communication seemed to be at an impasse, completely broken down. Everyone was getting frustrated and annoyed. It wasn't clear if the communication issue was as a result of misunderstanding or deliberate filibustering. It appears to be a misunderstanding based on different interpretation of language and metaphors. Anyway, glad to have broken through.

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NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 2:51 pm

What I was trying to say which I think caused the major frustration on your end was the statement of how an Atheist does not have a moral framework and can create their own value system, I was creating a value system and moral framework of my own, regardless of what the reality was.

You imply it to me that it is as simple as it sounds, I can wake up one morning and call myself an Atheist simply because I can because it's apart of my values and reality, that I choose to decide And that's it. You make it sound like it's something bigger than what it is, when in reality it's just that. You said so yourself that you pick and choose your own morality and values. So is it not fair to say in my own reality and values that I can call myself an Atheist at anytime? I mean, really? I feel you pick and choose the facts that you agree with, not the ones you don't even if they are valid.

Accepting the fact that Atheism is morally relative, why in my example of that, why did it aggravate you and Abascus? Can I not pick and choose my own morals, even if they are perceived to be wrong in the face of blinding reality and fact? Where does Atheism stand on that position?

Best Regards,

Jake

TallyMan
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03 Dec 2012, 3:13 pm

NAKnight wrote:

This thing I disagreed with (but this may simply may be my interpretation of what you are saying) is that one simply chooses to be an atheist. While this may be true it isn't as simple as putting on a hat that you may take off later in the day and back on again tomorrow. Though I suppose someone could hesitate and sit on the fence and have doubts about their religious beliefs and oscillate somewhat between being a believer and atheist, but semantically I'd call that state agnosticism.

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GGPViper
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03 Dec 2012, 3:16 pm

NAKnight wrote:

What I was trying to say which I think caused the major frustration on your end was the statement of how an Atheist does not have a moral framework and can create their own value system, I was creating a value system and moral framework of my own, regardless of what the reality was.

You imply it to me that it is as simple as it sounds, I can wake up one morning and call myself an Atheist simply because I can because it's apart of my values and reality, that I choose to decide And that's it. You make it sound like it's something bigger than what it is, when in reality it's just that. You said so yourself that you pick and choose your own morality and values. So is it not fair to say in my own reality and values that I can call myself an Atheist at anytime? I mean, really? I feel you pick and choose the facts that you agree with, not the ones you don't even if they are valid.

Accepting the fact that Atheism is morally relative, why in my example of that, why did it aggravate you and Abascus? Can I not pick and choose my own morals, even if they are perceived to be wrong in the face of blinding reality and fact? Where does Atheism stand on that position?

Best Regards,

Jake

While acknowledging that I may be choosing to debate with someone capable of regenerating damage from all sources except fire and acid, I choose to enter this discussion.

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?

NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 3:16 pm

Quote:

Is there a process I'm missing?

Best Regards,

Jake

TallyMan
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03 Dec 2012, 3:25 pm

NAKnight wrote:

Quote:

Is there a process I'm missing?

Best Regards,

Jake

I think that what I'm getting at is depth. Atheism isn't a superficial opinion such as preferring Pepsi to Coke. I guess the same could be said of religious belief... there are devout believers and those who are superficial believers in name only who only ever think of God at weddings and funerals and never attend any church but they call themselves Christians anyway.

To me (others may disagree) atheism means ridding one's mind of dogma and being open to discover whatever is real. This is done through science and logic. They are tools to understand the nature of reality. Science uncovers what is real. As such we have no beliefs as such; we simply take whatever facts science uncovers. Some people may find this an unsatisfactory state of affairs as science is never complete, new and deeper discoveries are made every day, but personally I find this very exciting, digging deeper and deeper into the nature of reality and what makes the universe and life within it tick.

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NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 3:34 pm

Quote:

Because at the end of the day, your values and principle's define your beliefs.
Even if you value system and belief system is not to have a value and belief system.

"You can choose not to decide, but you still have a made a choice.."

Best Regards,

Jake

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03 Dec 2012, 3:48 pm

NAKnight wrote:

Quote:

Because at the end of the day, your values and principle's define your beliefs?

How?

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