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Is God Santa Claus for adults?

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NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 4:05 pm

What you value determines what decisions you'll make on a day-to-day basis
you value something, otherwise you wouldn't have been so quick to jump on board.

When you start typing your response, you'll base your response on some value you feel I have engaged. I'm guessing Security.

To claim you don't have "values" is the same as me claiming "The Sky is Red" everyone has values, regardless of what religious or non-religious affiliation, I don't care who you are.

An example of values are this;

Truth
Justice
Independence
Success
Money/Wealth
Time

People make decisions on what they value the most. I value truth the most, because it teaches me more about myself and I value that. The method to me arriving at that
conclusion is through personal experience and age.

Best Regards,

Jake


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GGPViper
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03 Dec 2012, 4:16 pm

NAKnight wrote:
What you value determines what decisions you'll make on a day-to-day basis
you value something, otherwise you wouldn't have been so quick to jump on board.

When you start typing your response, you'll base your response on some value you feel I have engaged. I'm guessing Security.

To claim you don't have "values" is the same as me claiming "The Sky is Red" everyone has values, regardless of what religious or non-religious affiliation, I don't care who you are.

An example of values are this;

Truth
Justice
Independence
Success
Money/Wealth
Time

People make decisions on what they value the most. I value truth the most, because it teaches me more about myself and I value that. The method to me arriving at that
conclusion is through personal experience and age.

Best Regards,

Jake


That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?



NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 4:17 pm

I can infer from TallyMan that he values truth, logic and reasoning. I completely agree with him on that. The way he and I arrived to the "truth logic and reasoning" is by our own making. I'm engaging his and Abascus' values to see why/how the way they think Atheism is a fit for them.

Best Regards,

Jake


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NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 4:20 pm

Quote:
That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because values determines what you fight so hard to prove.
Atheism has a value system, it's lack of belief is only a part of that. Atheism value system is whatever the person decides, is that not correct?
Addressing the values or lack of determines the core reasons why you believe what you do.

Best Regards,

Jake


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Last edited by NAKnight on 03 Dec 2012, 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GGPViper
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03 Dec 2012, 4:25 pm

NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because values determines what you fight so hard to prove.


This is irrelevant to the relation between value and fact.

NAKnight wrote:
Atheism has a value system, it's lack of belief is only a part of that.


Prove it.

NAKnight wrote:
Addressing the values determines the core reasons why you believe what you do.


Irrelevant.



NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 4:35 pm

GGPViper wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because values determines what you fight so hard to prove.


This is irrelevant to the relation between value and fact.

NAKnight wrote:
Atheism has a value system, it's lack of belief is only a part of that.


Prove it.

NAKnight wrote:
Addressing the values determines the core reasons why you believe what you do.


Irrelevant.



Okay. I will be happy to oblidge after that, I would encourage you to cool down and disengage.

Okay, I will be using you as evidence that Atheist have values. Using Atheist logic of creating own values.
Your pissed, I can tell. You value your opinion (That's a value!)
You value being right
You value fact
You value yourself

Addressing values determines what you believe. Avoiding it is simply missing the whole picture. There's your evidence. Now go home.

Best Regards,

Jake


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GGPViper
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03 Dec 2012, 4:41 pm

NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because values determines what you fight so hard to prove.


This is irrelevant to the relation between value and fact.

NAKnight wrote:
Atheism has a value system, it's lack of belief is only a part of that.


Prove it.

NAKnight wrote:
Addressing the values determines the core reasons why you believe what you do.


Irrelevant.



Okay. I will be happy to oblidge after that, I would encourage you to cool down and disengage.

Okay, I will be using you as evidence that Atheist have values. Using Atheist logic of creating own values.
Your pissed, I can tell. You value your opinion (That's a value!)
You value being right
You value fact
You value yourself

Addressing values determines what you believe. Avoiding it is simply missing the whole picture. There's your evidence. Now go home.

Best Regards,

Jake


Once again, this is irrelevant.

All you have done is to make some claim about my motivations for posting. What does this have to do with the distinction between value and fact and the concept of atheism? :scratch:.



NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 4:44 pm

GGPViper wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
That post is barely even intelligible, and you are straw-manning people left and right.

You are also avoiding answering my questions, so I shall ask again:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?


Because values determines what you fight so hard to prove.


This is irrelevant to the relation between value and fact.

NAKnight wrote:
Atheism has a value system, it's lack of belief is only a part of that.


Prove it.

NAKnight wrote:
Addressing the values determines the core reasons why you believe what you do.


Irrelevant.



Okay. I will be happy to oblidge after that, I would encourage you to cool down and disengage.

Okay, I will be using you as evidence that Atheist have values. Using Atheist logic of creating own values.
Your pissed, I can tell. You value your opinion (That's a value!)
You value being right
You value fact
You value yourself

Addressing values determines what you believe. Avoiding it is simply missing the whole picture. There's your evidence. Now go home.

Best Regards,

Jake


Once again, this is irrelevant.

All you have done is to make some claim about my motivations for posting. What does this have to do with the distinction between value and fact and the concept of atheism? :scratch:.


Can Atheist define their own values?


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Oodain
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03 Dec 2012, 4:46 pm

there is not a shred of evidence in your post,

all i see are logic loops without context.

i think what people here are trying to argue is that values are inherently subjective and that alck of belief is only one such value,
many values function as distinctly seperate concepts with distinctly seperate reasoning behind them.

not even religion can create a completely common value set, the evidence is in the hundreds of ways religious texts have been interpreted and how that in turn created distinct seperate values from other religions and what personal values a person may have beside them.

now as far as logical fact and values, they cannnot in any way be compared, it is a non sequitur of textbook perfection.

one is hinged around established and often proven methodologies that is independently verifiable the other is a subjective part of personality dependant on personal experience(the most subjective of all).


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03 Dec 2012, 4:49 pm

NAKnight wrote:
Can Atheist define their own values?


Everyone can define their own values. But what does this have to do with fact? And why do you keep conflating the two?



NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 4:53 pm

Oodain wrote:
there is not a shred of evidence in your post,

all i see are logic loops without context.

i think what people here are trying to argue is that values are inherently subjective and that alck of belief is only one such value,
many values function as distinctly seperate concepts with distinctly seperate reasoning behind them.

not even religion can create a completely common value set, the evidence is in the hundreds of ways religious texts have been interpreted and how that in turn created distinct seperate values from other religions and what personal values a person may have beside them.

now as far as logical fact and values, they cannnot in any way be compared, it is a non sequitur of textbook perfection.

one is hinged around established and often proven methodologies that is independently verifiable the other is a subjective part of personality dependant on personal experience(the most subjective of all).



I was addressing values to see what Atheist fight to prove. It wasn't a question of religion or morality. It exploded again. I actually enjoyed myself talking to others. The common line is miscommunication.

Best Regards,

Jake


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NAKnight
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03 Dec 2012, 5:00 pm

GGPViper wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
Can Atheist define their own values?


Everyone can define their own values. But what does this have to do with fact? And why do you keep conflating the two?


Because I really want to know what you as a Atheist believe and fight hard to prove! Tell me why you are an Atheist? Is it out of some under-lying causes?


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Last edited by NAKnight on 03 Dec 2012, 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Dec 2012, 5:03 pm

i didnt touch on morals as such, morals are values just like anything else, miscomunication indeed.

asnwer me this: what is your actual point?
what would it mean if a single atheist or even a group fought to prove something?(which by the way isnt what is happening here, people are simply correcting fallacies)

now my point is as follows and only as follows;
-you cannot compare values and fact,
-values are inherently subjective and as such not something inherently shared if no distinct connection has been created.

**edit**

why is he obviously agitated?

also the whole point people here are trying to make is that there is no common atheist thing that people fight to prove,
there are some things some peope fight to prove and some other things other people fight to prove thats it.


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Last edited by Oodain on 03 Dec 2012, 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TallyMan
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03 Dec 2012, 5:05 pm

NAKnight wrote:
I can infer from TallyMan that he values truth, logic and reasoning. I completely agree with him on that. The way he and I arrived to the "truth logic and reasoning" is by our own making. I'm engaging his and Abascus' values to see why/how the way they think Atheism is a fit for them.

Best Regards,

Jake


Yes. Despite numerous communication problems between us (seems to be an issue you have with other members too :lol: ). Anyway; I don't have time to debate this evening, but communication foul ups aside I'm quite enjoying the debate.


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GGPViper
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03 Dec 2012, 5:07 pm

NAKnight wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
Can Atheist define their own values?


Everyone can define their own values. But what does this have to do with fact? And why do you keep conflating the two?


Because I really want to know what you as a Atheist believe and fight hard to prove!


Lets make a deal, then:

If you answer (and I mean *answer*, not just straw-man the beliefs of the person you are debating with) these two questions:

Why do you continue to conflate the concepts of value and fact?
Why do you continue to describe atheism as a value system when it is only an absence of belief?

... Then I will answer what I as an atheist believe and fight hard to prove.