Prayer out of schools?

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I pulled this one out as an exception because I think it is important to differentiate between what one is "allowed" to do religiously, and what one is "required" to do by non religious entities.

What if the person refusing to serve you contraceptives subscribes to beliefs that prohibit him/her from doing so?

IMHO, we must have not only freedom from religion, but freedom of religion as well. While I agree that we all have the right to not be intruded upon by other's religious practices, we don't have the right to force other's to violate their own principles either.

On that note, if I were personally working at a job that required me to do anything that violates my beliefs, the solution is to find another job, or not take the job in the first place.

There was an interesting case nearby here recently involving contraceptive distribution. The hospital, originally a Catholic institution later taken over by a secular administration, but still staffed mostly by Catholics, was sued for refusing to distribute contraceptives. What made this case rather interesting is that the history of the hospital was Catholic, now run by a secular administration, and was by this time also receiving public funding.

The basis of the government's case against them was, in essence, "distribute or lose your funding."

The hospital's response (in press reports) was, "We can't be forced to."

What I found stupid about the whole thing was that nobody was "forcing" the hospital to distribute contraceptives. They were simply being told if they didn't do it, they wouldn't get the funding. So what's the problem? If your belief is that strong about something like this, don't do it, and, in effect, turn down the funding.

Why go to the press crying your religious freedom is being infringed upon?

Seems in that case the money was more important than the principle.

They're in the wrong job then. Anyone who is ordered by their book or their other teachings not to do something that is an integral part of the job either should work their way around it (like Muslim owners of takeaway places that will serve ham on pizza, and very good it is too) or reject the job. Either navigate your way around it or find something else. Don't impose your values on other people who just want condoms, or 'toys', or gay magazines, or alcohol, or ham, or cigarettes, or anything else.

As I indicated above, I am in complete agreement with you.

Just gonna say I agree with both of you on this. A tough choice is still a choice. If that means choosing between your values and the job you want, your problem. Not really any different than for nonreligious people, in my opinion.

To be fair, with the possible exception of condoms, all those items are easily available elsewhere and are luxuries rather than necessities. I agree that it is silly to take a job working behind a bar if you don't want to handle alcohol, but the customer does have the alternative of going to a bar without such ludicrously unhelpful staff.

A pub like that would be out of business in very short order if the employers were insane (or frightened) enough to keep them on. A fundamentalist American Mormon wouldn't be very popular in a coffee shop, for instance, if they started giving out about caffeine.

I was at a supermarket checkout in the UK a few years ago and the cashier suddenly stopped scanning the items and put the flashing light on to call for a supervisor... turns out she was a devout Muslim and would not sell alcohol personally, so the supervisor had to come and scan the bottle of wine for her. In the meantime I'm stood there in disbelief along with the lengthening queue.

£50 says that they simply would not tolerate this from a white Christian (or, at the very least, they'd get a lot of stick for it). Islam with its endless whining and grievance-mongering, implicit threats of violence and intimidation and intolerance is allowed to have its way again.

Put it this way: almost all the examples I can think of involve Muslims (much like Muslims demanding prayer rooms where they don't belong, or Muslims demanding the right to ignore health and safety rules, or Muslims demanding the right not to remove headgear, or Muslim taxi drivers discriminating against disabled people by refusing to let dogs in their taxis). Yes, the caveat about this not applying to all Muslims still very much applies (speaking from personal experience). Just the arseholish ones who want to push their religion in everyone else's face. I would expect observant Jews not to work in a non-kosher butchers, and fundamentalist Christians not to work in an environment where they have to provide things - like condoms or sex toys - that go against their beliefs. I would also suggest that Hindus and Sikhs may wear their headgear too (the Sikhs have some rather impressive beards on them). But I wouldn't expect any of the excuses trotted out in their favour that are readily given when the target is a Muslim.

If your beliefs stop you doing your job (or you have to get other people to do those parts of your job for you), you're in the wrong job.

Hear! Hear!

I wasn't having a go at you. I was just expressing exasperation at the situation here.

Yup. Religion, even in the very mild version I had as a child in primary school, bored the absolute piss out of me. I never believed in it and was bored by it, even as a child. I remember asking a Catholic priest about belief in God, and he just couldn't answer, poor chap.

I didn't think you were. I was just clarifying that I have no clue what the situations are anywhere but here. Not necessarily for you, but for anyone reading.

While I agree with your stance on religion, however, I have to ask you to clarify the below.



What about a black christian or an asian one? You are aware that being a muslim (or of any other religion) does not indicate your skin colour.

If you believe that a "white christain" would not be tolerated in their beliefs, you have little understanding of the history of the Britain you live in. I would suggest you look up the temperance movement for one, and how these white christians changed british society completely. In your own county the temperance movement squirmed it's way into every facet of life even giving the old Manchester City's ground it name, Maine Road.

British (white) religion has played a hugh role in law making within the UK, pubs opening times & sunday trading to name some basic ones. But this is history right? OK what about the 26 unelected bishops of the church of england currently sitting in the House of Lords?

Not tolerate this from white christians? No, they may not be in you local corner shop refusing to serve alcohol (oh no, theres a queue now), instead they're in our parliment having a major impact on law making and our rights.

I oppose all religion regarless what colour it comes in, you on the other hand seem to have an issue with the colour of the religion not necessarily the religion it's self?

If I have misrepresented the meaning of your above comment please feel free to correct me.

QFT.

Prayer out of schools. Science and Math in.

ruveyn