All the problems with Christianity
ruveyn wrote:
Bitoku wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Oh, whether science only applies to the physical universe is a debatable proposition. Some do argue for intrinsic methodological naturalism, but people who hold to pragmatic methodological naturalism will disagree with the definitional claim.
That being said, he is certainly looking for you to explain how your ideas make sense in the actual world in a way where you aren't just engaging in pure terminological play.
That being said, he is certainly looking for you to explain how your ideas make sense in the actual world in a way where you aren't just engaging in pure terminological play.
I just wanted to point out how it isn't applicable to expect a physical scientific explanation for something non-physical.
Having said that, my explanation of it would be that our physical brain is influenced by the non-physical aspect of our identity (call it spirit, soul, or whatever). Our brain then operates to control our purely physical body. So basically the brain would be acting as a necessary transmitter between the non-physical (spirit) and physical (body) aspects of ourselves.
The entire Cosmos is physical right down to the subatomic level.
Our non-material illusions are produced by neurons in our brains.
ruveyn
There is not full evidence for that. It is hypothesis at most. Just cause you don't see it does not mean it does not exist. Silly humans make silly rules for something much bigger than human. Approximation is all that humans will ever make of the whole scheme of things.
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techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I'm starting to read this right now, 22 chapters lo and behold:
http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Tarot ... ermeticism
I'm also about halfway though Philosophy of Spiritual Activity by Rudolph Steiner which so far is probably one of the tougher reads I've engaged in with respect ontology and epistemology (apparently he had extensive education in that and the sciences before he really began his writings as a Rosicrucian seer).
What I'm doing I realize though is a me thing, not a movement thing. Meditations on the Tarot was written by Valtentin Tomberg posthumous and Rudolph Steiner's stuff was mostly written between 1890's and 1920's. Regardless I'm noticing some deep insights. Still not sure how Rosicrucianism/Anthroposophy and Christian Hermeticism dovetail, contrast, etc. but it will be interesting to find out.
http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Tarot ... ermeticism
I'm also about halfway though Philosophy of Spiritual Activity by Rudolph Steiner which so far is probably one of the tougher reads I've engaged in with respect ontology and epistemology (apparently he had extensive education in that and the sciences before he really began his writings as a Rosicrucian seer).
What I'm doing I realize though is a me thing, not a movement thing. Meditations on the Tarot was written by Valtentin Tomberg posthumous and Rudolph Steiner's stuff was mostly written between 1890's and 1920's. Regardless I'm noticing some deep insights. Still not sure how Rosicrucianism/Anthroposophy and Christian Hermeticism dovetail, contrast, etc. but it will be interesting to find out.
Please let us know what you find out after your read. I'm interested. Thanks, if you will.
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techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age:35
Posts: 16,071
Location: Eating over the sink.
aghogday wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I'm starting to read this right now, 22 chapters lo and behold:
http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Tarot ... ermeticism
I'm also about halfway though Philosophy of Spiritual Activity by Rudolph Steiner which so far is probably one of the tougher reads I've engaged in with respect ontology and epistemology (apparently he had extensive education in that and the sciences before he really began his writings as a Rosicrucian seer).
What I'm doing I realize though is a me thing, not a movement thing. Meditations on the Tarot was written by Valtentin Tomberg posthumous and Rudolph Steiner's stuff was mostly written between 1890's and 1920's. Regardless I'm noticing some deep insights. Still not sure how Rosicrucianism/Anthroposophy and Christian Hermeticism dovetail, contrast, etc. but it will be interesting to find out.
http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Tarot ... ermeticism
I'm also about halfway though Philosophy of Spiritual Activity by Rudolph Steiner which so far is probably one of the tougher reads I've engaged in with respect ontology and epistemology (apparently he had extensive education in that and the sciences before he really began his writings as a Rosicrucian seer).
What I'm doing I realize though is a me thing, not a movement thing. Meditations on the Tarot was written by Valtentin Tomberg posthumous and Rudolph Steiner's stuff was mostly written between 1890's and 1920's. Regardless I'm noticing some deep insights. Still not sure how Rosicrucianism/Anthroposophy and Christian Hermeticism dovetail, contrast, etc. but it will be interesting to find out.
Please let us know what you find out after your read. I'm interested. Thanks, if you will.
I think with Meditations on the Tarot I won't be reading much more than one chapter per night - 25 to 30 pages can take 1 1/2 to 2 hours if I want to fully absorb what I'm reading. A lot of what got outlined in MP Hall's 'Secret Teachings of All the Ages' is getting outlined so far with respect to the Hermeticism/Qabbalah/Tarot connection, and that's being thrown up against the New and Old Testament and really taking a deeper mystic view as he more fully elaborates on the meaning of the particular tarot cards and their significance both Hermetically/alchemically but also their context within Chrisitian mysticism. Since I only got it a couple days ago I've only read the Magician and the High Priestess, these chapters probably were the toughest to read though just because he's laying out the umbrella concepts for the rest of his 20 letters/chapters.
As for Philosophy of Spiritual Activity I'll have to see if I can finish it today. Bought a hard copy of that just because even if I get the main idea there's still a lot to be absorbed.
aghogday wrote:
There is not full evidence for that. It is hypothesis at most. Just cause you don't see it does not mean it does not exist. Silly humans make silly rules for something much bigger than human. Approximation is all that humans will ever make of the whole scheme of things.
Is it reasonable to believe something without evidence?
01001011 wrote:
What do you mean by 'influence'? Are you saying that even the brain is physical, the effect of the soul on the brain cannot be measured by scientific method?
Hypothetically, yes, that's what it would mean if there is a non-physical aspect to us that affects our decision making.
AspE wrote:
I would ask how you know there is anything non-physical?
I wouldn't necessarily I have undeniable proof, but one of the major papers I wrote for my Philosophy degree explored a theoretical example that makes it seem extremely unlikely that the universe is physicalist.
Having said that, I see it as irrelevant to this particular issue. I was asked to give a possible description outlining how I think a non-physical aspect to us could operate, so that's what I've done. Since I'm only postulating it as a hypothetical possibility, I don't see it as reliant on proving that the universe isn't physicalist. If you think the universe is physicalist, then that's fine, and obviously my explanation isn't going to be relevant to you in that case.
techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age:35
Posts: 16,071
Location: Eating over the sink.
TheValk wrote:
I've been meaning to read the Steiner originals; good that you brought it up because a quick Google search revealed they're very accessible in my mother tongue. Pretty excited now.
If that happens to be German there's a lot said by Sergei Prokofieff about being able to read Outline of Occult Science in German rather than English, to point that a lot of Steiner students have learned German for the sake of reading his stuff.
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
You really only gave an assertion though based upon the assumption that science is intrinsically methodologically naturalistic. I don't have to agree that science actually IS intrinsically methodologically naturalistic though, and causal models including issues of falsifiability don't intrinsically require that they are applied to physical or non-physical things.
It is a fact that the area of study known as science only concerns itself with physical phenomenon. Theoretical science, or meta-science, falls under the study of philosophy rather than science. I've studied philosophy, but make no claim to be a scientist, and therefore am not the best suited to give scientific explanations for most things.
Quote:
In any causal model though, binary's not out of his right to want something like a scientific model. It's entirely reasonable for him to ask how this idea fits into the scientific realities we are aware of and how this idea is a necessary one to explain certain cognitive functions. Also, it's entirely reasonable for him to wonder what additional findings about the world may end up making your metaphysical assertion seem like a questionable affair. As if we're talking about the empirical workings of the brain, then as a matter of empirics it seems like naturalism could still logically be a contender, or at least your model of non-physical interaction be shown highly doubtful.
You're right, it is perfectly reasonable for us to want a scientific explanation of anything. But if it's something non-physical, you might just not be able to really get one.
Having said that, I'm content with a dismissal of my explanation of something non-physical as not an adequate scientific explanation. It's sort of implied by the nature of the topic, after all.
Quote:
What does "influenced" mean in this case? How does "influence" work? How does the communication between both sides work? I mean, it's questionable to say "Oh, magic stuff does this!" because you're vague on everything. How does it work? Why does it work this way? Is it required by Occam's razor?
Sorry, but I'm not quite sure what you're looking for from me here. Can you give me a hypothetical example of a type of explanation that would satisfy you in regards to this?
AspE wrote:
aghogday wrote:
There is not full evidence for that. It is hypothesis at most. Just cause you don't see it does not mean it does not exist. Silly humans make silly rules for something much bigger than human. Approximation is all that humans will ever make of the whole scheme of things.
Is it reasonable to believe something without evidence?
No I don't think so. The parameters of evidence vary; depending on the illusory experience of that which is life; varying among each individual. I invite you to pursue some of the links embedded in the link below to a Ramadan culture of experience in a blog of many different religions coming together to experience what can only be described as pure white love.
The evidence is in the experience... It varies from one individual to the next. Human language is designed for mystical appeal.. There is no mistaking life and language when it happens in spirit... At least not for me as an Autistic Observer... tuned into higher perceptual experiences of the mine/mind and others.
http://katiemiaaghogday.blogspot.com/20 ... amohm.html
Several years ago I had every illness imaginable and couldn't raise my arms without almost passing out... No smiles no feelings whatsoever... The effect of spirit life is painted all over my face... It's not something that can be easily faked...if at all. It's free for my wife...always has been...
I wouldn't bother coming here to even speak about it; if I wasn't 100% sure. I am of the highest of logical minds. And the highest of skeptics... If I can be convinced anybody can... 'Trust Me' That's true. But it can't possibly happen unless a mind is left wide open to experience it. Sometimes that takes a cross to bear to get there...
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Misslizard wrote:
If Christ were here there is one thing he would not be---a Christian.
Mark Twain
Mark Twain
Actually he was Mark Twain and anybody else that could figure out the 'Christ Solution' to real life...
A little giggle there by Mark Twain...he new exactly who Christ was...not flesh just a symbol of a way...
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Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
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techstepgenr8tion wrote:
aghogday wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I'm starting to read this right now, 22 chapters lo and behold:
http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Tarot ... ermeticism
I'm also about halfway though Philosophy of Spiritual Activity by Rudolph Steiner which so far is probably one of the tougher reads I've engaged in with respect ontology and epistemology (apparently he had extensive education in that and the sciences before he really began his writings as a Rosicrucian seer).
What I'm doing I realize though is a me thing, not a movement thing. Meditations on the Tarot was written by Valtentin Tomberg posthumous and Rudolph Steiner's stuff was mostly written between 1890's and 1920's. Regardless I'm noticing some deep insights. Still not sure how Rosicrucianism/Anthroposophy and Christian Hermeticism dovetail, contrast, etc. but it will be interesting to find out.
http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Tarot ... ermeticism
I'm also about halfway though Philosophy of Spiritual Activity by Rudolph Steiner which so far is probably one of the tougher reads I've engaged in with respect ontology and epistemology (apparently he had extensive education in that and the sciences before he really began his writings as a Rosicrucian seer).
What I'm doing I realize though is a me thing, not a movement thing. Meditations on the Tarot was written by Valtentin Tomberg posthumous and Rudolph Steiner's stuff was mostly written between 1890's and 1920's. Regardless I'm noticing some deep insights. Still not sure how Rosicrucianism/Anthroposophy and Christian Hermeticism dovetail, contrast, etc. but it will be interesting to find out.
That's interesting; I think I may purchase the book and check it out.. Thanks..
Please let us know what you find out after your read. I'm interested. Thanks, if you will.
I think with Meditations on the Tarot I won't be reading much more than one chapter per night - 25 to 30 pages can take 1 1/2 to 2 hours if I want to fully absorb what I'm reading. A lot of what got outlined in MP Hall's 'Secret Teachings of All the Ages' is getting outlined so far with respect to the Hermeticism/Qabbalah/Tarot connection, and that's being thrown up against the New and Old Testament and really taking a deeper mystic view as he more fully elaborates on the meaning of the particular tarot cards and their significance both Hermetically/alchemically but also their context within Chrisitian mysticism. Since I only got it a couple days ago I've only read the Magician and the High Priestess, these chapters probably were the toughest to read though just because he's laying out the umbrella concepts for the rest of his 20 letters/chapters.
As for Philosophy of Spiritual Activity I'll have to see if I can finish it today. Bought a hard copy of that just because even if I get the main idea there's still a lot to be absorbed.
_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI
Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
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aghogday wrote:
AspE wrote:
aghogday wrote:
There is not full evidence for that. It is hypothesis at most. Just cause you don't see it does not mean it does not exist. Silly humans make silly rules for something much bigger than human. Approximation is all that humans will ever make of the whole scheme of things.
Is it reasonable to believe something without evidence?
No I don't think so. The parameters of evidence vary; depending on the illusory experience of that which is life; varying among each individual. I invite you to pursue some of the links embedded in the link below to a Ramadan culture of experience in a blog of many different religions coming together to experience what can only be described as pure white love.
The evidence is in the experience... It varies from one individual to the next. Human language is designed for mystical appeal.. There is no mistaking life and language when it happens in spirit... At least not for me as an Autistic Observer... tuned into higher perceptual experiences of the mine/mind and others.
http://katiemiaaghogday.blogspot.com/20 ... amohm.html
Several years ago I had every illness imaginable and couldn't raise my arms without almost passing out... No smiles no feelings whatsoever... The effect of spirit life is painted all over my face... It's not something that can be easily faked...if at all. It's free for my wife...always has been...
I wouldn't bother coming here to even speak about it; if I wasn't 100% sure. I am of the highest of logical minds. And the highest of skeptics... If I can be convinced anybody can... 'Trust Me' That's true. But it can't possibly happen unless a mind is left wide open to experience it. Sometimes that takes a cross to bear to get there...
I acknowledge evidence for special feelings of unity with similar minded people experiencing the same mass event, it can be quite intoxicating, and I'm sure generates increased levels of happy hormones in our brains. All kinds of mystical experiences are possible, that's part of what makes our species unique. However, I wouldn't call that evidence for a spiritual realm that actually exists, or anything supernatural. Personal anecdotes alone are not valid evidence, due to all the different ways in which are perceptions are influenced by what we expect to perceive.
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