The essential components of socialism

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The_Walrus
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21 Dec 2013, 4:15 pm

thomas81 wrote:

Kurgan wrote:

Socialists are like crabs in a bucket. If they can't afford to have a nice car and an iPad (despite dropping out of high school), nobody else gets to have that either (even if said persons have a PhD in nuclear physics).

I don't know if that analysis is borrowed from a specific experience you have of a socialist individual, or if its a strawman you've summoned out of thin air to burn. I suspect its the latter. No socialist worth his salt would arbitrarilly feel anger towards individuals on the back of their life achievements or intellectual credentials. Quite the contrary. Most intellectuals from what i've seen seem to gravitate towards the left wing. Its dialectics at work.

http://www.progressivepolicy.org/2011/0 ... ic-voters/

Those graphs show that political views and voting records correlate with education levels in the USA (state-by-state).

Of course, as the link says, that could be because Democratic states prioritise education (so Democrats end up being better educated), or because the top universities happen to tend to be in Democratic states (so graduates tend to live in those states).

However, I remember data being posted on here before (probably by Viper) that said high school dropouts tend to be left wing, high school graduates and undergraduates at university tend to be right wing, and people with some postgraduate education tend to be left wing. Again, this could be explained by other things (for example, people just protecting their own interests).

ruveyn
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21 Dec 2013, 4:20 pm

RushKing wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Socialism is collectivism right along with fascism and communism. It requires that the individual subordinate himself to the group. The needs of the many out weight the needs of the one or the few.
ruveyn

There is no rule that says we can't work towards meeting the needs of all individuals. Capitalism doesn't do that. I believe I should have a say in decisions to the degree that they affect me. I don't want to vote on the clothes you wair tomorrow.

You should have nothing to say about how I invest my money either.

What is yours is yours and what is mine is mine.

ruveyn

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21 Dec 2013, 4:38 pm

ruveyn wrote:

RushKing wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

You should have nothing to say about how I invest my money either.

What is yours is yours and what is mine is mine.

ruveyn

I believe land belongs to the people who use it, the constitution is not justification for the rule over others. Minority rule does not protect the individual.

Arran
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21 Dec 2013, 5:47 pm

Take into account that Karl Marx wrote his Communist Manifesto without having knowledge of AS. Also the developments in socialism in the 19th and 20th century took place without the knowledge of AS. Therefore it could be argued that socialism was developed assuming an entirely NT world. The emergence of knowledge of AS in a post Cold War capitalist world has been a game changer in certain fields of psychology and the understanding of the human mind. If socialism is based around a series of non-negotiable tenets then how well do they accomodate people with AS?

Aspie_Chav
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22 Dec 2013, 1:25 pm

Arran wrote:

What ideologies and policies must an individual or movement possess to be considered and accepted as socialist?

The acceptance of the violation of property rights and the initialisation of aggression for the greater good( supposedly) .

RushKing
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22 Dec 2013, 1:27 pm

Aspie_Chav wrote:

Arran wrote:

What ideologies and policies must an individual or movement possess to be considered and accepted as socialist?

The acceptance of the violation of property rights and the initialisation of aggression for the greater good( supposedly) .

There are no property rights without violenece.

Aspie_Chav
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22 Dec 2013, 2:38 pm

RushKing wrote:

Aspie_Chav wrote:

Arran wrote:

What ideologies and policies must an individual or movement possess to be considered and accepted as socialist?

The acceptance of the violation of property rights and the initialisation of aggression for the greater good( supposedly) .

There are no property rights without violence.

Explain.

RushKing
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22 Dec 2013, 3:06 pm

Aspie_Chav wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Aspie_Chav wrote:

Arran wrote:

What ideologies and policies must an individual or movement possess to be considered and accepted as socialist?

The acceptance of the violation of property rights and the initialisation of aggression for the greater good( supposedly) .

There are no property rights without violence.

Explain.

State rights come through the barrel of a gun. They don't exist in a vacuum. Possesion is real, but private property is a state law I didin't have any say in.

ruveyn
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22 Dec 2013, 3:37 pm

RushKing wrote:

Aspie_Chav wrote:

Arran wrote:

What ideologies and policies must an individual or movement possess to be considered and accepted as socialist?

The acceptance of the violation of property rights and the initialisation of aggression for the greater good( supposedly) .

There are no property rights without violenece.

that is true. There is always the possibility of force in maintaining possession of what one has.

ruveyn

Arran
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08 Jan 2014, 1:46 am

I find it hard to comprehend how socialism can maintain the stability to sustain itself without creating a technology timewarp defined as a situation where there is no progress in technology and each subsequent generation uses the same technology as the previous generation. The reason for this is because developments and progress in technology - such as automation of industrial processes or obsolescence of consumer products - have the potential to reduce the demand for workers or make certain occupations redundant.

Another baffling aspect of the left in Britain is their tireless support for the TV licence and despite it being a regressive tax in a society that is increasingly turning its back on the BBC. It's not uncommon for people to get through entire weeks without consuming any BBC services.

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29 Jan 2014, 5:32 pm

Arran wrote:

If technological advancements produce more wealth for a society, then that shouldn't be a problem. We can pay people to do nothing.

thomas81
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29 Jan 2014, 6:34 pm

ruveyn wrote:

RushKing wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

You should have nothing to say about how I invest my money either.

What is yours is yours and what is mine is mine.

ruveyn

it becomes problematic when you use your money to transgress against the interests of others.

Either by buying a gun to shoot someone, or by opening a sweatshop in a deprived area of a south east asian city without legislated workers protection and enforcing working conditions that are on par with indentured servitude.

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thomas81
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29 Jan 2014, 6:39 pm

Arran wrote:

the BBC for all its faults, is a largely progressive institution that provides world insight free of corporate or big business bias.

Personally, i think the present TV license structuring is unfair and should at the least be means tested to ensure that low earners pay less while disabled and elderly people pay nothing.

If you compare the BBC to the likes of ITN and Sky, which are the broadcasting equivalent of gutter press red top papers its fairly evident to see why the BBC is needed. Moreover its a important cultural icon and has been engrained into the tapestry of British tradition that kept us informed during our darkest hours. It should remain.

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29 Jan 2014, 7:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:

RushKing wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

You should have nothing to say about how I invest my money either.

What is yours is yours and what is mine is mine.

ruveyn

No it isn't. "Your" money isn't your's.

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29 Jan 2014, 7:35 pm

Arran wrote:

I don't really get how socialism is based around a series of non-negotiable tenets.....that seems like a description better fit for some strict religion. Also the point of socialism is to ensure all the citizens have access to food, shelter, water, medical care and other necessities. It doesn't mean the government prevents people from having more than just the absolute basic nessesities, but in a socialist system you would see less class division as there wouldn't be quite so much of a disbalance of wealth. You wouldn't have a single person living on millions of dollars a day while there are entire homeless families on the street.

If the government is oppressing people that is totalitarianism, not socialism...

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01 Feb 2014, 6:52 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Arran wrote:

What ideologies and policies must an individual or movement possess to be considered and accepted as socialist?

The needs of the collective outweigh the needs of the one or the few.

Socialism is the contrary of individualism.

ruveyn

Not per se. What about Mutualist or similar individualist/socialist anarchism? I would say those that believe in collective action through some central governance body. Most of the time this means state socialism, which means to redistribute the wealth.

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