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MCalavera
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10 Jan 2014, 12:11 am

Dantac wrote:
What I can never understand is why the bible is used as a source/reference to prove/disprove ..what's in the bible.

:scratch:


Think about it. If we want to figure out what's in the Bible, then the first thing we should do is check what's in the Bible.



MCalavera
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10 Jan 2014, 12:14 am

sonofghandi wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Jesus never claimed to be God or the Messiah. It was others who claimed him to be so, probably way after his death.
The documentary and historical evidence says otherwise. Jesus said, I and the Father are one", "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father", and often used the Exodus reference of "I AM" when proclaiming His divinity.


Those statements do not necesarily mean that he claimed to be the son of god any more than any other man is. Even most Christians believe that in some ways they and the lord are one. And plenty of people believe that truly seeing others is a way to see god. Most of the statements that have been used as evidence of Jesus' claim to godhood can be interpreted in other ways, depending on your pre-conceived assumptions.

Although if you want to use the words written by others and attributed to him to bolster your own personal belief, you may also want to consider:
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works." John 14:10
"You call Me Teacher and Lord; and ye say well; for so I Am." John 13:13
"And Jesus said, I Am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." Mark 14:62
"Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" Matthew 7:21
"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." John 17:5

Some other Jesus quotes to consider:
“I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.” John 14:28
"But of that day and that hour knows no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son, but the Father." Mark 13:32

Another thing worth considering is in John 17:11 and 17:21-22 Jesus prays to God that the disciples may be one as Jesus and God are.

The only verses that I ever found in the Bible that definitively stated that Jesus was god were not spoken by Jesus himself.


Even if Jesus implied he was God in the Gospel of John, it can't be considered reliable much anyway.

You are correct that Jesus never said he was God in any of the Synaptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke) that happen to be earlier than John.



Kraichgauer
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10 Jan 2014, 12:46 am

JSBACHlover wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
With the Pope and Cardinals it sure seems to be a Roman Invention. Was any of that in the Bible? They like to say Peter was the first Pope.


That's what Catholicism claims. But we know from Acts that Jesus' brother, James, had been chosen as the leader of the Apostles in Jerusalem. And Jerusalem was the actual center of the early church, till the Romans leveled the city in 70 A.D. After that, one could make a case for Antioch as the capital of the church. The "Bishop" of Rome was not seen as anything other than the first among equals (other Bishops) till possibly when Pope Leo (?) had negotiated with Attila and the Huns in the 5th century, gaining status for his office.


I'm familiar with these arguments. Orthodox and Anglican historians usually argue as you say above, whereas Catholic historians have different arguments. It's hard to find an unbiased interpretation! The Acts passage where James speaks last at the Council of Jerusalem is without doubt an important passage for understanding the apostolic and post-apostolic Church. But I think that a reading of the Post-Apostolic Fathers is more helpful. Certainly, by the end of the 4th century (two generations before Pope St. Leo), St. Augustine could state, without any controversy or challenge, "Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia." And by all means, he wasn't the first to make such an assertion.

But at least, Kraichgauer, we both believe in Jesus the Son of God which (it seems) puts us both in the minority on WP! So I'd rather focus on our common faith than our disagreements.


That's fine by me.
Incidentally, having been raised a Lutheran, I can appreciate my faith's roots in Catholicism. In fact, I tend to feel more at home among Catholics than I do among evangelicals.


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JSBACHlover
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10 Jan 2014, 9:05 am

That's great. Welcome, brother.

I just wrote an entire response to the Cookie Monster guy, and it was all erased because my pinkie hit the Backspace button. I studied the Ugaritic Ba'al Cycle for my Masters Thesis, so I could address his ... uh ... "ideas." But alas, I'm not going to type all that up again.

You and I know that Christianity is unique among all religions of the earth. It is not a "myth." It is true history of God becoming man. Other cultures proclaim god as man as a myth. But we Christians know it to be history and, moreover, a history which was prophetically foretold by the Jewish dispensation and writings from 2000 B.C. to the time of the Maccabees.

I am continually struck by how so many intellectuals view Christianity as the religion of the unintelligent, when in fact it takes near genius intelligence to appreciate its subtlety and uniqueness. It is a fact -- and you know this -- that most "average" intellectuals are atheists. But the great geniuses -- G.K. Chesterton, C. S. Lewis, G. E. M. Anscombe, Charles Peguy, Allen Tate, Mortimer Adler, Peter Hitchens, John Von Neumann, Eidth Stein -- became Christians.

Just an observation, my friends, just an observation.....



MCalavera
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10 Jan 2014, 10:31 am

And many geniuses never became Christians. Einstein is one good example among many.

And, by the way, I would like to see those prophecies that you speak of. I have yet to see one that wasn't so vague that it could be interpreted zillions of ways to suit zillions of events even in the far future.



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10 Jan 2014, 11:29 am

JSBACHlover wrote:
That's great. Welcome, brother.

I just wrote an entire response to the Cookie Monster guy, and it was all erased because my pinkie hit the Backspace button. I studied the Ugaritic Ba'al Cycle for my Masters Thesis, so I could address his ... uh ... "ideas." But alas, I'm not going to type all that up again.

You and I know that Christianity is unique among all religions of the earth. It is not a "myth." It is true history of God becoming man. Other cultures proclaim god as man as a myth. But we Christians know it to be history and, moreover, a history which was prophetically foretold by the Jewish dispensation and writings from 2000 B.C. to the time of the Maccabees.

I am continually struck by how so many intellectuals view Christianity as the religion of the unintelligent, when in fact it takes near genius intelligence to appreciate its subtlety and uniqueness. It is a fact -- and you know this -- that most "average" intellectuals are atheists. But the great geniuses -- G.K. Chesterton, C. S. Lewis, G. E. M. Anscombe, Charles Peguy, Allen Tate, Mortimer Adler, Peter Hitchens, John Von Neumann, Eidth Stein -- became Christians.

Just an observation, my friends, just an observation.....


In an unrelated matter, I appreciate that you chose Johan Sebastian Bach as your WP handle - maybe the most famous German Lutheran composer. 8)


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JSBACHlover
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10 Jan 2014, 9:37 pm

MCalavera wrote:
And many geniuses never became Christians. Einstein is one good example among many.

And, by the way, I would like to see those prophecies that you speak of. I have yet to see one that wasn't so vague that it could be interpreted zillions of ways to suit zillions of events even in the far future.


Yes, many geniuses never did become Christians. But I don't hold that against them. ;) And I am very glad that Johnny Von Neumann received the last sacraments. I look forward to meeting him in the next world, since he's one of my heroes.

As for prophetic analysis, it certainly doesn't work with Nostradamus or the Bible Code which are indeed vague and eisegetical . As for with the Hebrew Scriptures and Jesus Christ, the prophecies can sometimes be a bit vague, yet usually they are remarkably specific, especially if you read them in the original Hebrew and according to the Hebrew interpretations at the time of Christ. If you are truly interested, MCalavera, you could do some research of your own. Try reading some authors who are serious scholars who attempt to prove opinions which you do not hold, and see where their arguments lead you.

I apologize if you consider this a cop out on my part but I can't go through something that complex on a WP thread. And, more importantly, I respect your intelligence. You can do independent research and perhaps -- if your Aspieness takes over -- you can become an expert on the subject which, I assure you, is a lot of fun, because by the time you are through you will know your Scriptures inside and out. Which could make you a formidable opponent of Christianity or, I would hope, a reluctant yet highly educated convert (which, by the way, is my own story. But that's for another day......)



Last edited by JSBACHlover on 10 Jan 2014, 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MCalavera
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10 Jan 2014, 9:40 pm

I've done a fair bit of research actually for quite a while. It's the reason I eventually quit the faith.

Anyhow, whatever rocks your boat. You are a free being.



JSBACHlover
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10 Jan 2014, 9:45 pm

MCalavera wrote:
I've done a fair bit of research actually for quite a while. It's the reason I eventually quit the faith.

Anyhow, whatever rocks your boat. You are a free being.

This is sort of funny, but your arguments against Christianity wouldn't freak me out as much if your avatar were less, uh, creepy. :roll:

And if you studied it all and decided to leave, well then, I guess that's where things stand. It saddens me because I went from atheist to Catholic. And I already have "Theory of Mind" issues and so can't imagine someone else not believing what I believe. Also, I wonder what it must feel like to live without some sense of a Higher Power. Or, MCalavera, do you believe in some sort of God who guides you?



MCalavera
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10 Jan 2014, 9:50 pm

I used to still believe in some God for a while after leaving the Christian faith. But, for me, it was always an intellectual thing, rather than overwhelming emotions. And because I just couldn't find or maintain any more intellectual reason for believing in a Higher Power (God), I stopped believing in that as well.

It is no big deal for me, though. I am a much more relieved person now, and feel totally free.



JSBACHlover
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10 Jan 2014, 10:07 pm

Thank you for answering my question

By the way what is up with that avatar? It really does creep me out.



MCalavera
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10 Jan 2014, 10:26 pm

Fear not. He's a good guy. Here's a trailer for the game he's in:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV1NBHL9Fa4[/youtube]



JSBACHlover
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10 Jan 2014, 11:45 pm

Oh. Still creepy. But not too creepy. Just creepy enough.



techstepgenr8tion
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11 Jan 2014, 1:05 am

Not to butt in on the banter her but a quick side tangent...

Anyone here read up much on the Essenes?

I just spent tonight reading a slurry of articles about Qumran, Philo and Flavius Josephus' description of them, and even mention of former Pope Benedict XVI edifying John the Baptist as having had Essene education.

That's a whole other dimension I didn't really touch on earlier but it's worth bringing up. It gets tough to tell with such a melting pot of ideas as you had at that time between Jerusalem, Alexandria, Greece, as well as the gnostics that were to later become the Christian Gnostics once Christ came out on the scene just who had what amount of influence on what aspects of doctrine, which one of five or six groups claiming the most influence behind Christ's teachings can claim that, and that still completely leaves alone the issue of what his death on the cross metaphysically did or didn't achieve.



sonofghandi
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11 Jan 2014, 6:41 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Not to butt in on the banter her but a quick side tangent...

Anyone here read up much on the Essenes?

I just spent tonight reading a slurry of articles about Qumran, Philo and Flavius Josephus' description of them, and even mention of former Pope Benedict XVI edifying John the Baptist as having had Essene education.

That's a whole other dimension I didn't really touch on earlier but it's worth bringing up. It gets tough to tell with such a melting pot of ideas as you had at that time between Jerusalem, Alexandria, Greece, as well as the gnostics that were to later become the Christian Gnostics once Christ came out on the scene just who had what amount of influence on what aspects of doctrine, which one of five or six groups claiming the most influence behind Christ's teachings can claim that, and that still completely leaves alone the issue of what his death on the cross metaphysically did or didn't achieve.


The Essenes are one of the reasons that make me suspect that Jesus may not have been a single individual rather than a collection of philosophical teachers later lumped together in a single entity.


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11 Jan 2014, 5:01 pm

From what I understand about the Essenes, they had taught a very legalistic formula of rituals and morals to live a clean life. Very different from Christ, who was critical of the Pharisees and religious leaders of his day with their legalistic obedience to the law, saying in fact, "My yoke is light," in comparison.


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