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The_Face_of_Boo
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24 Nov 2014, 1:28 pm

SignOfLazarus wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
It is a behavior which is way more common among the working-class and particulary poorly educated men, the poorer the area the more it becomes common- and the more conservative the worse.


...I'm wondering, through the course of this discussion, if the behavior might look/manifest differently in different areas/neighborhoods?


It might be but the thread is abt catcalling.



aghogday
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24 Nov 2014, 2:30 pm

As all human behavior goes, different eyes, different views, different responses to the same words and or non-verbal language or other clues.

I rave dance every week and the atmosphere of dance was much more puritanical in the days of John Travolta and button down hairy chests; believe it or not it's true, in the North Florida climate of dance I live in, at least.

There are ogling looks that could be considered a catcall as well, or even sexual harassment per work place law.

But in the dance halls of life it often is considered a compliment particularly as some women freely flaunt their booties in getting maximum exposure of attention to their hindquarters.

And on the beaches of sugar white beaches where I live it's part of the bikini flow at least among the young folks and relatively harmless as a tradition in way of life.

EVEN THOUGH, THIS AREA, IS CONSIDERED Reagan country through and through, when the Bikinis come out and it's time to dance, among the YOUNG TRULY FREE FOLKS, ALMOST ANYTHING GOES, for a 'SENsUAL' compliment on man or woman.

But does it happen in Super-Wal-Mart a little more North From the beaches or even close to the beach; no hell no, as it's just not appropriate but yes the looks do go on in Ogling when others are not looking.

I personally think it's much more dangerous when it's done among disenfranchised males or females that are not as successful in getting mates.

And yeah, believe it or not I have been the recipient of booty dancing from women that follow along in these similar shoes as men, and it's very uncomfortable and I can relate to how it feels when it is not welcome. But it is not something generally speaking that folks take serious when a guy complains about it on the beach or in the dance hall as typically culture still dictates guys are supposed to like ALL ATTENTION FROM WOMEN, WHEN DONE IN 'that' way.

But in the clubs these days women are getting almost as aggressive as men, AND IN SOME CASES MORE, in their ADVANCES toward the opposite sex, but of course people who go to clubs generally speaking are more open and aggressive about sex in all its colors in non-verbal and verbal language. My wife would never go and it's just not an easy place to be for people who DO NOT WANT 'THAT KIND' OF ATTENTION.

BUT YES SOME WOMEN DAMN SURE WANT IT AS MUCH AS THEY CAN GET IT.

And it's a free country (relatively speaking) so in my opinion more power to them, as long as it IS CONSENSUAL.

But seriously there is not much more of a CAT CALL than a strange early twenty something woman coming up to me and rubbing her butt on my front in a dance hall. Men still CANNOT DO THIS AND AVOID JAIL. AND YES, of course that's a good thing, but it just goes to show this damn sure IS NOT A MAN only issue in our culture as it STANDS TODAY, depending on where one goes to have fun.

And I like to dance, JUST DANCE, and no I do not deserve it if I dance, NO MATTER HOW WELL I DANCE, DAM IT...

ButT at around 225LBS of muscle that can leg press 810LBS, yes, I can 'gently' push them out of the way.

They are NOT going to take advantage of me, per the REAL SCARY STUFF THAT WOMEN DO ENCOUNTER THEIR ENTIRE LIFE AS REAL TECHNICALLY DOCUMENTED REASON TO FEAR this kind of stuff, and again this is the reason my wife WILL NOT GO, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE WHETHER I can protect her or not.

And hell no I do not blame her, as I give people space and respect them wherever I go, as human beings, but some folks DO NOT FOR WHATEVER REASON, AND THERE ARE MANY REASONS THEY DO, SO I EXPECT TO WITNESS THIS BEHAVIOR, particularly on the beach and in dance halls. And if need be I WILL STAND UP AND PROTECT SOMEONE WHETHER I KNOW THEM OR NOT, cause I can with just a look, as non-verbal language is powerful stuff, both abused and used to help others.


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24 Nov 2014, 3:34 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
If you make fun of a person's race, creed, etc in the street, you could be charged with harassment. If a group surrounds a person in the street, they could get arrested for menacing.

What part of NYC do you live, Jwfess?

I live in Queens Village.


Actually, the law says you can say such things and it isn't harassment unless you repeatedly do so over a significant length of time. So, it's entirely legal to make fun of people and their identities, as long as you don't do it repeatedly. That's the law at the federal level.
For example, at a nearby college, the school booted a kid for harassment and the courts threatened to boot the school. The majority of colleges have illegally defined terms and policies concerning harrassment, but if the school accepts funds from the government they have to comply with the Federal Terms. Most schools get away with it, until someone challenges them.
Corporations may have their own unique terms for harassment that if broken may lead to the perp being fired, but normally those definitions do not meet the legal standard, which is why they are only fired and not criminally charged.
Now, NYC police is so corrupt, I'm sure they'll charge you for anything. Maybe it is local laws that consider it harassment, which would leave the locality wide open for a class action lawsuit... Of course, NYC can afford better lawyers.

That's the thing about the law in society... it often doesn't matter. What matters is that you have the large enough resources to force people to comply or not comply with the law.

Proto's 3 Laws of Legality:
Rule 1: Trust is a weakness. Those in authority and those with perceived authority will screw with you and give you false impressions
Rule 2: Nearly everything you can imagine is illegal and many things are also legal, somewhat like Schrodinger's Cat. It depends entirely on your own resources and the other parties resources.
Rule 3: The law is nonsensical to it's core.
-The words of the law are unique unto themselves and so laypeople don't know the law. In most cases the original definitions still apply, are hundreds of years old, and not even the judges or lawmakers remember until some smalltime lawyer shoves it into their faces again and pisses them off by pointing out that the they have all been doing things illegally for decades and forcing them to pay reperations to tens of thousands of people who lost previous hearings... Or not because the words of the law only actually apply when the person with the greater resources thinks they should, otherwise it's about the "spirit of the law" which is some abstract justification for illegally forcing other people to do stuff under the guise of the law.


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24 Nov 2014, 3:34 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
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This is the thing that confuses me, though. Are you suggesting that a person who is catcalling somehow needs to know whether the person is being being catcalled is going to reciprocate or not before the catcall takes place?


Hypothetically speaking, do I somehow need to know whether you'd like to be punched before I punch you? Or can we just assume that you'd not like to be punched?


Well, in the case of the catcalling video, when men who state "good morning" to a woman, that is considered harassment. Do you think punching someone in the face and saying "good morning" are similar behaviors? If not, then your analogy is not apt.



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24 Nov 2014, 3:40 pm

SignOfLazarus wrote:

If you YELL at someone- that is not reasonable effort at communication.
If you speak to a stranger clearly and they do not reciprocate, and you speak to them again? That is harassment. They did not reciprocate- did not show interest. If you continue to attempt to force communication, that is harassment.
If someone is staring straight ahead- that is a signal they are not interested in engaging. If you attempt to engage, that is already stepping across a line, though perhaps not an explicit one- but certainly if you speak to that person and continue to do so after they do not reciprocate? harassment.
If you make noises, make gestures, whistle, moan, obstruct someone's path, use any kind of intimidation, insult someone, pressure someone into communication, touch someone without their consent, follow someone: harassment.


I agree with this, however it seems that some people have extended the definition of catcalling. For instance when in the catcalling video people say "how are you doing", the people who made the video consider that harassment, which is confusing to me.

The examples you provide I would also consider harassment and are wrong. But it appears that simply greeting someone is also considered harassment, and it is the grey area I would like to explore so I have a better understanding of the subject.



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24 Nov 2014, 3:46 pm

SignOfLazarus wrote:

If you are unsure if you are making a reasonable effort at communication? You probably are not.


Don't worry I hardly ever communicate with anybody. In fact I would never approach and talk to a woman I don't know. But apparently this is how a lot men meet women and begin relationships with them.



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24 Nov 2014, 4:41 pm

SingOfLazarus wrote:
CynicalWaffle wrote:
you'll get all sorts of harassment if you stand out. That goes for either gender. What has to be done is to figure out how to get rid of harassment.

...maybe start by not blaming the victim anymore.

This is a ridiculous strawman argument and you know it. CynicalWaffle did not blame the victims of harassment in any way whatsoever. He simply stated that those dense enough to behave like this are more likely to pick on people who stand out. This in no way shifts responsibility onto the victims for what happened to them, it's simply an empirical fact. Humans tend to pick on those different to themselves because this way, they'll be more likely to garner support from similarly insecure people around them.

In the past, I've been publicly harassed (verbally and physically) in public because of my unusual appearance and body language as a result of being Autistic. I was treated badly because I am different. Does this mean that what I had to deal with was my fault? Of course not. It simply means that people who are different are often perceived to be easy targets by bullies, and if you demand specific reference for that common knowledge, I don't think I can take you seriously in this conversation. :wink:
Acknowledging this fact is NOT synonymous with excusing the behaviour in question.


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24 Nov 2014, 5:00 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
SignOfLazarus wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
It is a behavior which is way more common among the working-class and particulary poorly educated men, the poorer the area the more it becomes common- and the more conservative the worse.


...I'm wondering, through the course of this discussion, if the behavior might look/manifest differently in different areas/neighborhoods?


It might be but the thread is abt catcalling.


Catcalling can still look different.


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24 Nov 2014, 5:01 pm

Kuribo64 wrote:
I don't think I can take you seriously in this conversation.



Ok .


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24 Nov 2014, 5:06 pm

SignOfLazarus wrote:
Ok .

Are you seriously denying that people who differ from the norm are more likely to be harassed and bullied?


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24 Nov 2014, 5:10 pm

aghogday wrote:
...But it is not something generally speaking that folks take serious when a guy complains about it on the beach or in the dance hall as typically culture still dictates guys are supposed to like ALL ATTENTION FROM WOMEN, WHEN DONE IN 'that' way...


Quote:
BUT YES SOME WOMEN DAMN SURE WANT IT AS MUCH AS THEY CAN GET IT.

...more power to them, as long as it IS CONSENSUAL.

But seriously... a strange early twenty something woman coming up to me and rubbing her butt on my front in a dance hall. Men still CANNOT DO THIS AND AVOID JAIL. AND YES, of course that's a good thing, but it just goes to show this damn sure IS NOT A MAN only issue in our culture as it STANDS TODAY...

... I do not deserve it if I dance, NO MATTER HOW WELL I DANCE, DAM IT...


So, yeah. Agree. [truncated for clarity not distortion, which I hope is evident]


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24 Nov 2014, 5:11 pm

Kuribo64 wrote:
SignOfLazarus wrote:
Ok .

Are you seriously denying that people who differ from the norm are more likely to be harassed and bullied?


I am doing no such thing, so don't attribute to me things I do not say.
I wrote "ok". That means if you can't take me seriously then, well, "ok". I don't have to be bothered by it.


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Kuribo64
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24 Nov 2014, 5:29 pm

SignOfLazarus wrote:
Kuribo64 wrote:
SignOfLazarus wrote:
Ok .

Are you seriously denying that people who differ from the norm are more likely to be harassed and bullied?


I am doing no such thing, so don't attribute to me things I do not say.
I wrote "ok". That means if you can't take me seriously then, well, "ok". I don't have to be bothered by it.
It's strange that you're unable to show me the same courtesy you just showed ahogaday; you appear to have truncated my first post specifically for the purpose of distortion because you don't want to respond to any of my points. I specifically said that IF you are denying that those who are different are more likely to be seen as easy targets, I cannot take you seriously. You appear to be denying that this is your opinion, therefore the sentence you quoted shouldn't apply.

I do hope that this was a mere misunderstanding...


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24 Nov 2014, 6:45 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Women have been seen as property of some form for a very long time, yes. That doesn't change the fact that men that sexually harrass and/or assault women *today* are doing it out of a sense of entitlement derived from the notion women are public property.

Unless they happen to be taken. Then harrassing/assaulting them is a matter of insulting their male keepers.


For almost all that time, and almost everywhere, when women were not “taken”, they were considered their fathers’ property. The women closest to being considered public property were prostitutes, but they usually had pimps.


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24 Nov 2014, 7:32 pm

Laci Green, look her up on Youtube.

The Vagina Monologues...watch a few.

I have a few feminist friends, and they tend to gravitate toward that material.

As for my own opinion on the OP...I know better than to have one.



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24 Nov 2014, 7:58 pm

In my 45 years of living, I don't think I have ever heard a man catcall a women. I didn't realize that stuff actually happened. I guess I do live rather isolated.