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Oldavid
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15 Jan 2015, 6:16 am

I think you're pretty close as far as the assumption vs. hypothesis in science goes, naturalplastic.

However, these bods are determined to make assumptions some kind of "science tool" because their "science" is entirely based on ideological assumptions that they know are indefensible and they will come at any subterfuge to ensure that their ideological assumptions are not subjected to any reasonable or scientific scrutiny.

Anyhow, it's clear that any reasonable investigation or debate about the issue is not going to happen, so I thought I'd try a different tack.

Arty, I went back and found your claimed "refutation" of the entropy argument. To be honest, it came from the dark ages and it is so easy to falsify with observation, experiment and deduction that it now only used by lounge chair and bar stool "experts" who gain their knowledge of everything from media sales pitches.

I'll try and help you get more up-to-date with your strategy and rhetoric.

To sell a nonsense you need to com the multitude with much more esoteric claims... the kind that only the wisest inductees can "see". Claims that anyone with moderate knowledge and intelligence can dispute and refute are only a trap for the most naïve and credulous.

Now days, the "answer" to the entropy problem involves unfalsifiable speculations like "worm holes" going to and fro an infinite number of "multiverses" where entropy works in reverse then popping up on Earth and in the Universe all charged up with "anti-entropy". Who could devise an experiment to falsify that claim??? If it can't be disproved then it is proved... right?

It might surprise you to find that there area great many genuine scientists that would dispute that; but that will never bother you because you have defined "science" as only that which supports your ideology.

Wikipedia wrote:
Falsifiability or refutability of a statement, hypothesis, or theory is an inherent possibility to prove it to be false. A statement is called falsifiable if it is possible to conceive an observation or an argument which proves the statement in question to be false. In this sense, falsify is synonymous with nullify, meaning not "to commit fraud" but "show to be false". Some philosophers argue that science must be falsifiable.[1]

For example, by the problem of induction, no number of confirming observations can verify a universal generalization, such as All swans are white, yet it is logically possible to falsify it by observing a single black swan. Thus, the term falsifiability is sometimes synonymous to testability. Some statements, such as It will be raining here in one million years, are falsifiable in principle, but not in practice.[2]

The concern with falsifiability gained attention by way of philosopher of science Karl Popper's scientific epistemology "falsificationism". Popper stresses the problem of demarcation—distinguishing the scientific from the unscientific—and makes falsifiability the demarcation criterion, such that what is unfalsifiable is classified as unscientific, and the practice of declaring an unfalsifiable theory to be scientifically true is pseudoscience. This is often epitomized in Wolfgang Pauli famously saying, of an argument that fails to be scientific because it cannot be falsified by experiment, "it is not only not right, it is not even wrong!"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability



DentArthurDent
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15 Jan 2015, 7:37 pm

Oldavid wrote:
I
Arty, I went back and found your claimed "refutation" of the entropy argument. To be honest, it came from the dark ages and it is so easy to falsify with observation, experiment and deduction that it now only used by lounge chair and bar stool "experts" who gain their knowledge of everything from media sales pitches.


Ok falsify it

DentArthurDent wrote:
I really dont think you get it, you do not seem to understand the full nature of the amount of energy coming from the sun nor the amount of energy required for the evolution of all life on this planet. I can furnish you with the maths if you like, but essentially the the amount of entropy for all lifeforms on the planet would be around -302 j/k yet the amount of energy coming into the system from the sun is around 420 x 10 to the power of 12 J/K. In short your argument is nonsense. Areas of the universe can decrease in entropy so long as other areas increase by a greater amount, entropy is not universal in the sense of the a steady increase throughout all areas of the universe. Another canard you are guilty of is to assume evolution is all about increased complexity, it is not, it is about adaptability. And on a final note it's also necessary to deal with the canard that entropy equals 'disorder'. This is a non-rigorous view of entropy that scientists engaged in precise work discarded some time ago. Not least because there are documented examples of systems that have a precisely calculated entropy increase after spontaneously self-organising into well-defined structures. Phospholipids are the classic example of such a system - a suspension of phospholipids in aqueous solution will spontaneously self-assemble into structures such as micelles, bilayer sheets and liposomes upon receiving an energy input consisting of nothing more than gentle agitation. To Quote a paper from 1998

Gentle Force Of Entropy Bridges Disciplines by David Kestenbaum, Science, 279: 1849 (20th March 1998)
Kestenbaum, 1998 wrote:Normally, entropy is a force of disorder rather than organization. But physicists have recently explored the ways in which an increase in entropy in one part of a system can force another part into greater order. The findings have rekindled speculation that living cells might take advantage of this little-known trick of physics.

And from wikibooks:Structural Biochemistry/Lipids/Micelles

Micelles form spontaneously in water, as stated above this spontaneous arrangement is due to the amphipatic nature of the molecule. The driving force for this arrangement is the hydrophobic interactions the molecules experience. When the hydrophobic tails are not sequestered from water this results in in the water forming an organized cage around the hydrophobic tail and this entropy is unfavorable. However, when the lipids form micelles the hydrophobic tails interact with each other, and this interaction releases water from the hydrophobic tail and this increases the disorder of the system, and this is increase in entropy is favorable


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Oldavid
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15 Jan 2015, 10:41 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Ok falsify it

I can't, Arty, because I'm too afraid to look into a microscope and see the diatoms turning themselves into dinosaurs and I can't examine all the thousands of generations of fruit flies that have been irradiated with every imaginable radiation because they've turned themselves into spacemen, built spaceships, and gone off to colonise other worlds in the farthest reaches of the Universe.

I'm also too afraid to start my motor car in case it sucks energy out of the Sun and overflows the petrol tank all over the road causing a traffic hazard; or maybe, worse still, it might suck energy out of the Sun and assemble itself into a spaceship and dump me on the Moon without any food, or water, or air.

The world is a very scary place now that you've abolished entropy.



kraftiekortie
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15 Jan 2015, 10:52 pm

Well...at least you guys are on a first-name basis now!



DentArthurDent
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15 Jan 2015, 11:37 pm

Oldavid wrote:
The world is a very scary place now that you've abolished entropy.


Explain how you come to this conclusion!


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Oldavid
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16 Jan 2015, 2:32 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
The world is a very scary place now that you've abolished entropy.


Explain how you come to this conclusion!
:lol: Put your glasses on and read above. :lol:



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16 Jan 2015, 3:32 am

David do you ever tire of coming across as a fool. You are claiming that somehow my statement and evidence on entropy removes it from the nature and breaks all the Laws, yet you give no indication how.

Posting a link about falsifiability does not explain anything. But then this is your method of debate, all you do is make unsubstantiated claims about people, science and evidence supporting the science but never do you actually provide any evidence of your own to back up what you are claiming. I can only assume that this is because you either have know idea what you are talking about or that you know you cannot defend your claims. Either way the way you carry on is pathetic.


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DentArthurDent
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16 Jan 2015, 4:05 am

David I am astonished by your lack of even the most basic of understanding of what constitutes evidence as well as subjective vs objective knowledge, not to mention the use of assumptions. Is the brainwashing that pervasive that you cannot see when you are making absolutely no sense? Do you realise that you consistently refuse to explain your fast held beliefs when presented with rational rebuttal? Do you realise that you simply reiterate the speaker was wrong and give no supporting evidence why? Are you aware that most of your arguments actually prove you wrong or highlight your errant debating style eg Assumptions and Falsifiability?

I guess not, as Narrator put it, you do not seem to have much self awareness.

Narrator out of interest, do you recognize some of these traits from you old self?


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kraftiekortie
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16 Jan 2015, 7:26 am

You guys should go get a beer or something.

That's the way it was in the old days. People having intense discussions over beer, wine, drugs. They argue it out, but bear no grudge later.

I hope this is the case--I hope you guys become friends. You'd make a good team.



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16 Jan 2015, 7:43 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
Narrator out of interest, do you recognize some of these traits from you old self?

With my old self, belief trumped everything, including integrity.

We didn't have the Internet, during my active Christian years. But we did have Christian books on every topic.

The advantage of the Internet is that you can read one thing and then find another site that challenges that view.
The disadvantage of the Internet is that you can read one thing and then find another site that challenges that view.

And...... I agree with Mr Kortie.. it's beer-o-clock, guys.


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16 Jan 2015, 7:09 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
You guys should go get a beer or something......

I hope this is the case--I hope you guys become friends. You'd make a good team.



You may find this trivial but I do not. Too many times history has shown the result of the subjugation of knowledge and science to the warped ideas of believers in the supernatural. David may seem innocuous in his belittling of science and its findings, but you need to look at the broader picture. David is represented by a broad array of like minded people and the more their message takes hold, the harder it will be to counter it.

Unlike many on this forum I support the concept of free speech and expression, but with that comes a responsibility to speak out against ideas and lies that you perceive as dangerous, offensive, manipulative etc.

I realise that I will never change his mind, but at least anyone who is unsure about the "science" he is presenting will see an effective, example based, rebuttal. So if its ok with you, I will continue to address what I see as David's attempts to obfuscate, lie and mislead.


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16 Jan 2015, 7:18 pm

LOL...You don't think I support free speech?

Sometimes, I think David's merely trying to pull your leg.



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16 Jan 2015, 7:26 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
LOL...You don't think I support free speech?


No I did not say that. I have no idea on your position regarding free speech. Many on here claim to support it but then apply caveats to limit it, these are the people I am referring to.

Regarding David it would be nice to think he is simply trolling, but I don't think he is. As Narrator has pointed out his ideology and behaviour reminds him of how he once was.


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kraftiekortie
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16 Jan 2015, 7:34 pm

Some of the greatest friendships have been borne of intellectual rivalry.

I wish David could talk about the trials and tribulations of being a cattle rancher. I would find that interesting.

Even though much of the substance within PPR happens to be interesting.



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16 Jan 2015, 7:54 pm

I agree, but intellectual rivalry leading to friendship, at least as far as I am concerned, must be accompanied by some level of intellectual honesty. I perceive David has shown non in his comments thus far. As such there are far more interesting rivals that I would like to share a nice glass of wine and a good meal with.


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