Does the German are the victim of the World War II?

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pawelk1986
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11 Oct 2017, 7:19 am

Does the German are the victim of the World War II, does they have morally right to claim to be victim of war they waged themselves?

And what do you think about the Berliner, Prussian books currently in custody of Polish Jagiellonian University, in Krakow, the oldest Polish university and one of the oldest in Europe.
They hold Berliner collection(known as Berlinka in Poland) they got it by completely accident, it was hold in Lower silesia, to keep it safe from Allied bombing, and when Red Army together with Polish First Army stormed west toward mainland Germany, fleeing Wehrmacht left it in hiding, later Lower Silesia with former 3 rd. Reich eastern terrorises, was ceded to Poland according to Yalta Agreement. When the provisional government of Poland began to inventory what we got they found it, initially keep it out sight of our Soviet our "beloved" fraternal allied "Red Army" :mrgreen: later it was transferred to Jagiellonian library.

The Germans gently but firmly (though in my opinion brazenly) demand the return of this collection as the property of the German people, but our Polish authority, in my opinion, is absolutely correct that first let the German people (as in Nazi :P ) give what they stole from the Polish people :D
Update: In my opinion, it is very annoying that the Germans, depict themselves as poor victims of World War II, the war they themselves uncovered, in my opinion it is despicable.. Take, for example, a movie like "The Woman in Berlin" about poor Germans raped by Red Army soldiers, but no one mentions Polish, Russian, Belarussian or Russian, not mention Jewish women raped by brave ubermenschen from the Waffen SS and Wermacht, so it's nothing bad if untermanchen treat Germans the same way?

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kraftiekortie
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11 Oct 2017, 7:32 am

The Germans were the clear aggressors. It’s the regular German person who suffered. They were dumb enough to elect the Nazis in the first place.



ASPartOfMe
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11 Oct 2017, 11:05 am

Most of them were somewhat aware of the Holocaust.

But not all Germans were guilty
German resistance to Nazism

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German resistance to Nazism (German: Widerstand) was the opposition by individuals and groups in Germany to the National Socialist regime between 1933 and 1945. Some of these engaged in active plans to remove Adolf Hitler from power and overthrow his regime.

The term German resistance should not be understood as meaning that there was a united resistance movement in Germany at any time during the Nazi period, analogous to the more coordinated Polish Underground State, Greek Resistance, Yugoslav Partisans, French Resistance, Dutch Resistance, Norwegian resistance movement and Italian Resistance. The German resistance consisted of small and usually isolated groups. They were unable to mobilize political opposition. Save for individual attacks on Nazis (including Hitler) or sabotage acts, the only real strategy was to persuade leaders of the Wehrmacht to stage a coup against the regime: the 1944 assassination attempt against Hitler was intended to trigger such a coup.

Approximately 77,000 German citizens were killed for one or another form of resistance by Special Courts, courts-martial, People's Court and the civil justice system. Many of these Germans had served in government, the military, or in civil positions, which enabled them to engage in subversion and conspiracy; in addition the Canadian historian Peter Hoffman counts unspecified "tens of thousands" in concentration camps who were either suspected or actually engaged in opposition. By contrast, the German historian Hans Mommsen wrote that resistance in Germany was "resistance without the people" and that the number of those Germans engaged in resistance to the Nazi regime was very small. The resistance in Germany included German citizens of non-German ethnicity, such as members of the Polish minority who formed resistance groups like Olimp.


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pawelk1986
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11 Oct 2017, 12:00 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The Germans were the clear aggressors. It’s the regular German person who suffered. They were dumb enough to elect the Nazis in the first place.


My point exactly.



sly279
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11 Oct 2017, 5:49 pm

Is the item of German heritage? Germany paid dearly and finically and returned most of what they stole. They paid reparations for the war and victims. All items from ww2 should be returned regardless of who it is being returned to. Today’s Germans are not responsible for what the nazi party did 70 years ago.



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14 Oct 2017, 8:29 pm

Even though the Nazi government was responsible for the war, that doesn't mean millions of innocent German civilians didn't suffer. And suffer they did, having their homes destroyed, while countless German women and girls were raped by Soviet soldiers.
In regard to Poland - a huge swath of land had been stolen by Stalin from Germany in the east, and resettled with Poles, as Stalin had taken part of Poland, and resettled it with Soviet citizens.
Needless to say, the party ultimately responsible were Hitler and his Nazis, but that doesn't mean the Germans weren't also legitimate victims.


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Mikah
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14 Oct 2017, 10:23 pm

The bombing of Dresden comes to mind, a particularly shameful episode.


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14 Oct 2017, 11:32 pm

Mikah wrote:
The bombing of Dresden comes to mind, a particularly shameful episode.


Agreed. Had the Germans won the war, the allied leaders might have been put on trial for that war crime.


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15 Oct 2017, 12:57 am

I think that the culpability of the German population during 1933-1945 is seen today as less than it historically was. The reasons for this are extensive. Hans Fallada (Alone in Berlin) and Wolfgang Borchert (The Man Outside), both from 1947, are good starting points to see how today blame for the war is now placed on the Nazi party. Fallada tells the story of a couple who lose their only son in 1942 in the war. He shows the extend of nazification of Germans. Borchert shows a soldier returning to Berlin after the war, who is riddled with guilt and cannot forget, which is what everybody he meets has no trouble doing. The German television production Our Mothers Our Fathers from 2013 shows this development. The average German is shown as a victim of both the war and the circumstances of the times. The blame for National Socialism has been decoupled from the German population. The reinterpratation does not make halt at World War II, the German populace is also seen as the victim of the Kaiser's ambition in World War I, the average German soldiers as the victim of the Allied's war propaganda, and implying that the Treaty of Versailles was partly responsible for the later rise of National Socialism in Germany, in the first place.


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15 Oct 2017, 1:35 am

Clakker wrote:
I think that the culpability of the German population during 1933-1945 is seen today as less than it historically was. The reasons for this are extensive. Hans Fallada (Alone in Berlin) and Wolfgang Borchert (The Man Outside), both from 1947, are good starting points to see how today blame for the war is now placed on the Nazi party. Fallada tells the story of a couple who lose their only son in 1942 in the war. He shows the extend of nazification of Germans. Borchert shows a soldier returning to Berlin after the war, who is riddled with guilt and cannot forget, which is what everybody he meets has no trouble doing. The German television production Our Mothers Our Fathers from 2013 shows this development. The average German is shown as a victim of both the war and the circumstances of the times. The blame for National Socialism has been decoupled from the German population. The reinterpratation does not make halt at World War II, the German populace is also seen as the victim of the Kaiser's ambition in World War I, the average German soldiers as the victim of the Allied's war propaganda, and implying that the Treaty of Versailles was partly responsible for the later rise of National Socialism in Germany, in the first place.


The Treaty of Versailles was responsible for the rise of the Nazis.
While the Kaiser was reckless and jingoistic, he was hardly the only world leader with that fault. As a matter of fact, like everyone else, he was pulled into the war by his treaty obligations, and was hardly the one to fire the first shot.
While it's doubtlessly true most Germans threw their support behind Hitler and the war effort, the German people born after the war can not seriously be held accountable for the bad choices of their parents and grandparents.


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15 Oct 2017, 3:11 am

Quote:
Does the German are the victim of the World War II, does they have morally right to claim to be victim of war they waged themselves?


My response should be read as in support of the OP's assertion. In my experience, the Federal Republic of Germany (FRG) does display itself as a victim of the Nazi Party, which allows the FRG to reinterpret it's role before, during, and after World War II.

Quote:
While it's doubtlessly true most Germans threw their support behind Hitler and the war effort, the German people born after the war can not seriously be held accountable for the bad choices of their parents and grandparents.


This could be read as a response to the OP's question but is most likely addressing my post. My post is not meant to mine history to fault the reinterpretation. It is rather meant to say that I have experienced it. It has left me as incredulous as the OP.


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Kiriae
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15 Oct 2017, 11:23 am

I think they are victims of The World War II - but in a different sense. German citizens are experiencing hate from other nations even now - for what some people in their grandparents generation did.

It's as if your grandchildren were hated just because you are from a generation that choose PIS if PIS happens to start a war in the future. (I'm not saying PIS will, don't take offense if you like them, it's just an example because PIS is currently the ruling political party of Polish government)

Collective responsibility reaching too far, if you ask me.



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15 Oct 2017, 12:00 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Even though the Nazi government was responsible for the war, that doesn't mean millions of innocent German civilians didn't suffer. And suffer they did, having their homes destroyed, while countless German women and girls were raped by Soviet soldiers.
In regard to Poland - a huge swath of land had been stolen by Stalin from Germany in the east, and resettled with Poles, as Stalin had taken part of Poland, and resettled it with Soviet citizens.
Needless to say, the party ultimately responsible were Hitler and his Nazis, but that doesn't mean the Germans weren't also legitimate victims.


Also quite a few Germans ended up trying to hide jews and other targeted individuals in their homes to save them being sent to concentration camps. I imagine any who were caught doing this were executed or sent to concentration camps themselves.


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15 Oct 2017, 12:18 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Even though the Nazi government was responsible for the war, that doesn't mean millions of innocent German civilians didn't suffer. And suffer they did, having their homes destroyed, while countless German women and girls were raped by Soviet soldiers.
In regard to Poland - a huge swath of land had been stolen by Stalin from Germany in the east, and resettled with Poles, as Stalin had taken part of Poland, and resettled it with Soviet citizens.
Needless to say, the party ultimately responsible were Hitler and his Nazis, but that doesn't mean the Germans weren't also legitimate victims.


Also quite a few Germans ended up trying to hide jews and other targeted individuals in their homes to save them being sent to concentration camps. I imagine any who were caught doing this were executed or sent to concentration camps themselves.


Absolutely true. As with any dehumanized totalitarian state, acts of kindness given to those regarded as enemies of the said state were seen as unforgivable transgressions.


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15 Oct 2017, 2:17 pm

The Nazi's brought the war on Germany. Many Germans who were opposed to Hitler and the Nazi's , knew that Hitler would destroy Germany if he got into power.
When America entered the war, Many Germans who had worked in America knew that Germany would lose the war and probably be completely destroyed in the process.

As far as the Library collection is concerned, they belong to Poland as spoils of war. The Nazi's did their best to destroy Poland, and many of the people of Silesia were actually ethnic Germans Living in Poland. Hitler appealed to many of them, and they collaborated with, and supported the Nazi's, identifying themselves not as Poles, but as Silesian Germans. After Poland was liberated, (if you can really Soviet occupation Liberation) by the Soviet Union, one of the first things that happened is that many of the Silesian Germans were either forced out, or sent to Germany, due to the fact that they had sold Poland out.

FWIW, one man that I really look up to is this man, who's Auschwitz Report gave me a bit of insight involving the Silesian/Pole conflict that was arising during the Nazi Occupation. --As a Pole I'm sure that you would know a bit more about him than I do.


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