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L_Holmes
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09 Jul 2016, 12:39 am

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

SJWs have the intention to do good, but that doesn't mean they actually do any good. In fact, I think they have caused, and will continue to cause, many problems that will hinder the progress of freedom and equality rather than further it. They are hurting the cause of social justice, and they cannot be ignored.

Here's an example of a bad idea that seems good: white privilege. The reason they use that idea is because they want to point out the problems in the black community that aren't as prevalent in the white community, like poverty, crime, unfair treatment from law enforcement etc. It seems good; it seems like it makes sense.

But when you examine it closely, you realize it has a problem: it implies that the problem is totally one of race, in a society where systemic racism is almost nonexistent. It focuses on the symptoms rather than the underlying causes. It focuses on a very oversimplified version of the problem, rather than addressing the complexities that need to be understood if progress is to be made. It encourages treating black people differently than white people in order to even out their privilege, rather than encouraging people to treat everyone fairly and with the same respect.

It's a way of viewing things that just perpetuates the problem, rather than focusing on solutions. You shouldn't treat people as if they have more or less of anything simply because of the way they look. You should treat them as individuals. But I've seen many people from the BLM movement encouraging this idea of white privilege. Just today I saw a bunch of them on TV talking about this. Many of them were saying that if you are white, you are in some way responsible for the way things are, and say that you therefore have more of an obligation than they do to do something about it. That is simply a racist idea.

But nobody speaks up, either because they blindly believe it or because they are afraid of being called a racist. So the problem continues.

And this idea of perpetuating the problem rather than focusing on solutions can be really be applied to the whole SJW movement. They focus so much attention on race, gender, sexuality etc., when the goal should be to forget about those things. By forget, I mean, to realize those things don't determine who you are as a person or what you are capable of, and so ultimately they don't matter. The goal should be to treat people as individuals, and not to determine things, like whether or not they are privileged, based on something as inconsequential and meaningless as the color of their skin.

I made this thread because some people here seem to think being opposed to SJWs means you're opposed to social justice, when it's quite the opposite. I'm opposed to them because I think they are now one of the biggest, if not the biggest obstacle to social justice. They are infecting and overrunning the social justice movement, and turning it into a victim cult that seeks to take rather than to give, to hurt rather than to help. So forgive me if I think they are a bigger obstruction to social justice than Neo Nazis or white supremacists, who almost nobody likes and who hold very little influence or power in this country, unlike SJWs, who grow in number and influence every day.

I'll reiterate what I said at the beginning of this post: just because a group of people thinks they are doing good does not mean they won't cause tons of harm. Christians and Muslims are a prime example of that. And plenty of SJWs are just as dogmatic about unfounded beliefs as religious people are. The difference is they come disguised as a movement for freedom and equality, and that makes them all the more dangerous.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jul 2016, 6:45 am

There is still quite a bit of systemic racism, only it's more subtle than it used to be. We still have black neighborhoods, Hispanic neighborhoods, etc. The NYC schools are still pretty segregated.

The so-called white schools tend to have students who perform much better than black/Hispanic schools. It's not completely the fault of the students who attend those schools.

Conditions for non-white people on the whole, are much better than they were in the 1950's. However, much work needs to be done. By both the society and by the members of the minority groups.

I agree that Political Correctness frequently goes too far. However, in my life, where I encounter many female lawyers/judges, I don't encounter too many SJW-type opinions. The people who are Feminists have had their Feminism tempered by life experience. They might have held SJW-type opinions in college/university but, under the influence of life experience, these opinions have been modified, for the most part.



L_Holmes
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09 Jul 2016, 7:05 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
There is still quite a bit of systemic racism, only it's more subtle than it used to be. We still have black neighborhoods, Hispanic neighborhoods, etc. The NYC schools are still pretty segregated.

The so-called white schools tend to have students who perform much better than black/Hispanic schools. It's not completely the fault of the students who attend those schools.

Conditions for non-white people on the whole, are much better than they were in the 1950's. However, much work needs to be done. By both the society and by the members of the minority groups.

I agree that Political Correctness frequently goes too far. However, in my life, where I encounter many female lawyers/judges, I don't encounter too many SJW-type opinions. The people who are Feminists have had their Feminism tempered by life experience. They might have held SJW-type opinions in college/university but, under the influence of life experience, these opinions have been modified, for the most part.

That's not systemic racism. There's nothing in the system that prevents black people from going to better schools or moving to better neighborhoods. Therefore, the reason for the disparities must be something other than systemic racism.

I've already acknowledged these disparities still exist, and pointed out that assuming all of it is just from systemic racism is a massive oversimplification of the real problems, which are complicated.

And as far as what you've shared about who you've personally encountered, that's anecdotal. You are one person, so unless you've met everyone in America, you can't say you know the extent of the problem based on your own experience.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jul 2016, 7:07 am

There are quite a few realtors in NYC who still steer black househunters from certain white neighborhoods. I know this for a fact.

Obviously, systemic racism is not the only thing which is keeping non-white people "down." Where did I state that systemic racism is the only cause of our problems? It's one of many causes--but it cannot be denied.

Your experiences with SJW's are are also anecdotal.

Research studies, especially within the social sciences, are not the "be-all, end-all." They must be used in conjunction with the conveyance of anecdotal experience in order to reflect, truly, what is going on in the world.



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09 Jul 2016, 7:18 am

The biggest issue of course is they're in and more and more getting into positions of real power and influence and using it. Nazis and supremacists and such are actually less of an issue because they lack power and influence. All they can really do is scream and shout from the sidelines while 99.9% of people don't take them seriously.



L_Holmes
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09 Jul 2016, 7:32 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
There are quite a few realtors in NYC who still steer black househunters from certain white neighborhoods. I know this for a fact.

Obviously, systemic racism is not the only thing which is keeping non-white people "down." Where did I state that systemic racism is the only cause of our problems? It's one of many causes--but it cannot be denied.

Your experiences with SJW's are are also anecdotal.

Research studies, especially within the social sciences, are not the "be-all, end-all." They must be used in conjunction with the conveyance of anecdotal experience in order to reflect, truly, what is going on in the world.

If that's true, then the realtors are racist, not the system.

You didn't say it specifically, but you didn't mention anything else, and you said there's quite a bit of systemic racism, when there isn't. In a country with black supreme court justices, black four star generals, black entertainers, and a black president, "quite a bit of systemic racism" is simply not reflective of reality. The system does not prevent black people from achieving these things or anything else simply because they are black, therefore it's not systemic racism.

I'm not basing what I'm saying on personal experience meeting SJWs, I'm basing it off of what I've seen all over the news, social media, YouTube etc. There are many universities in the West that promote the exact kinds of thinking I'm referring to in their social justice courses. You can easily look it up and see. That's not anecdotal.


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L_Holmes
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09 Jul 2016, 7:47 am

Drake wrote:
The biggest issue of course is they're in and more and more getting into positions of real power and influence and using it. Nazis and supremacists and such are actually less of an issue because they lack power and influence. All they can really do is scream and shout from the sidelines while 99.9% of people don't take them seriously.

Exactly. But for some reason many people continue to deny that this is the case. We've literally got black supremacists chanting "black power" in the streets and rejoicing when innocent police are gunned down. I just wonder how far this will have to go before people finally stop denying or minimizing this behavior.

I know people will say, "But not all of them are like that!" So what? A lot of them are. If a group of Neo Nazis took to the streets and started a riot, nobody would be defending them. But because BLM claims to do such things for a good cause, somehow that makes it ok in their mind.


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09 Jul 2016, 8:21 am

About the good intentions thing, I can relate. When I was very young, my mother for some unknown reason had invented a boogeyman for me to be scared of. I imagine she thought it was just harmless fun. She stopped with it after she pointed out a car coming down the road saying that was him and I immediately dragged her down behind a car so he wouldn't see us.

I know if she'd put a gun in my hand and pointed at a man in front of me and told me that was him I'd have shot that man down without hesitation or a second thought and thought I'd done a very good thing.

The SJWs have invented boogeymen of their own. And people are scared of them.



kraftiekortie
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09 Jul 2016, 9:32 am

All what you say is obviously, about the black president, Supreme Court justices, etc. Obviously, much progress has been made. But there are still discriminatory systems going on on the grass roots level. But the intensity and prevalence of these system are going down, through both rational activism and the appeal to logic.

And, of course, black people who are into "black power" or whatever are racists, too.

I guess you would just have to "live it" in order to "know it." You might live under the influence of ideology, rather than under the influence of what you actually experience. I used to live under the influence of ideology, too--and I made mistakes because of it.

Personal experience is at least as important as what is reported in the news. You are, usually, detached from what is reported in the news.

A couple of times, I've had irritating dealings with people who seem to possess SJW-type opinions. I am fortunate, though, to have met a lot of people. That fact, alone, indicates that this sort of thinking is not prevalent amongst most people.



kraftiekortie
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09 Jul 2016, 9:57 am

Life is very, very different than what I thought life was at age 20.

I think, when you're 55, that you'll feel similar to me, and you'll be telling some 20-year-old the similar things as what I've told you.

I can understand that you don't believe what I say. I wouldn't have believed what I said when I was 20 years old.



L_Holmes
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09 Jul 2016, 10:28 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
All what you say is obviously, about the black president, Supreme Court justices, etc. Obviously, much progress has been made. But there are still discriminatory systems going on on the grass roots level. But the intensity and prevalence of these system are going down, through both rational activism and the appeal to logic.

And, of course, black people who are into "black power" or whatever are racists, too.

I guess you would just have to "live it" in order to "know it." You might live under the influence of ideology, rather than under the influence of what you actually experience. I used to live under the influence of ideology, too--and I made mistakes because of it.

Personal experience is at least as important as what is reported in the news. You are, usually, detached from what is reported in the news.

A couple of times, I've had irritating dealings with people who seem to possess SJW-type opinions. I am fortunate, though, to have met a lot of people. That fact, alone, indicates that this sort of thinking is not prevalent amongst most people.

Until I see an example of a truly racist system that exists in the United States, it makes no sense to believe you that there is one. There may be some racist people within a system, but that is a very different thing. A racist individual is not the same thing as a racist law.

Personal experience is not at all important when talking about this sort of thing. I have never personally (to my knowledge) had a run-in with a Muslim terrorist, or a Neo Nazi, or a pedophile; and yet, that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not I think they exist, or how much of a problem I think they are. That's because I'm aware that I've only experienced a very tiny amount of what exists in the world, and therefore it makes much more sense to consult the news or anywhere that people can exchange information, rather than what seems to be true in my small world.

Even you, who have met many people, can not say you've actually met even close to most people in even one city in America, let alone be able to determine their political leanings accurately every time. So how can you base your opinion of the prevalence of an idea among millions of people on your own experience? By your logic, I could deny that racism exists or minimize it's impact greatly simply because I, personally, have never experienced anybody with racist opinions in my own life. That's wrong, and it's exactly that kind of thinking that leads to people being very closed-minded and out-of-touch with reality. I'm not saying you are, but what you are saying, if taken to the extreme, leads to that.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jul 2016, 10:53 am

i use a combination of personal experience, and your methodology.

It's not one or the other, it's a combination of both.



L_Holmes
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09 Jul 2016, 10:59 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
i use a combination of personal experience, and your methodology.

It's not one or the other, it's a combination of both.

That's still wrong. If you're talking about a subject like this, personal experience is completely useless. You can see these people exist and do all the things I said, just by doing a Google search. They have numbers, they have power and influence, and they have remarkably bad ideas. It doesn't matter how many you've met AT ALL.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jul 2016, 11:08 am

i use a combination of personal experience, and your methodology.

It's not one or the other, it's a combination of both.

I think individuals could be racists. I think there could be a racist system. Obviously, African slavery was based, at least partially, upon a racist premise.

The racist system was all-encompassing in parts of the south until about the 1970s.

Here in NYC, as far as housing is concerned, there is a sort of racist system which is dying out. But elements of the system still remain.

You don't have to believe me if you don't want to...no skin off my back.

People have beliefs for various reasons--whether logical or illogical. It is hoped that beliefs are formulated based upon a logical premise, though.



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09 Jul 2016, 11:12 am

In fact, you meeting just a few people that hold these views proves my point more than anything. It shows that it's uncommon, but not very rare. Even with the tiny, tiny percentage of people you've personally dealt with, you still came across the occasional SJW. How many white supremacists have you met? I would guess zero.

Yes, systemic racism was very common in the past, and we still feel it's effects today. But systemic racism in America is no more. If it is still in existence, name a law, name a system that still operates with racism built into it. Otherwise there is no reason to believe that's the case.


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