Why are feminists not against hijab?

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There's a split in feminism which runs like this: the feminists who are all about giving women choices, and think empowerment is all about the opportunity to make choices (not an entirely invalid position), and the feminists who are all about dismantling oppressive power structures (or separating women from them).

Both positions have some validity, but the liberal one tends to betray women who are trapped by patriarchal culture (for fear of giving offence). The radical position tends to alienate men, and it has some crazy ideas on its fringes (but this is greatly exaggerated by antifeminists). I think betraying women is a greater crime.

Your last post is just nonsensical. It's worth showing that muslims are victims of Jihadist attacks as well, to combat the idea that it's "us against them."

If you've spent any time on planet Earth since the 1960s, you'll know that the phrase "left-leaning" is a popular phrase meaning left-liberalism, the same way "right-leaning" refers to conservatism. It's intellectually dishonest for you to pretend not to understand that.

I don't have a "genocide mentality."

Your comparison doesn't make sense, and I'm not going to unpack it.

I didn't click on your second link because to read the first one, I had to put it through a translator in the first place. The fact that you would send an American articles in Swedish shows that you didn't really care to show them in the first place.

Talking to you is like talking to a wall. It's clear that for you these threads are just solipsistic exercises, so I'll leave you to it. Have fun!

That makes sense on an ideological level, but where I question you and potentially disagree with you is on numbers. Liberal feminists who avoid criticizing oppressive Islamist laws are common in media, but they're not the people I meet in real life. Most of the "moderate" or liberal feminists I meet IRL are supportive of people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and are critical of oppressive theocratic laws abroad; they would argue that they criticize anti-Muslim sentiment in the US more than foreign theocracies, because they're Americans, and they feel greater agency and a greater sense of responsibility to have an impact in their home country.
At the same time, you may be right that they should show more support to feminist movements in countries like Iran and Pakistan, and in regions like East Africa. The irony there, though, is that most of the feminists in those countries are themselves liberal feminists, advocating for free choice and equality. I know Sarah Haider, the head of Ex-Muslims of North America and a Pakistani-American, is herself a liberal feminist.

I don't think it's that the media feminists are super-uncommon but prominent. I'd say that they're regionalized, tend toward living near, attending, and teaching at liberal arts universities, and you might find that there are plenty of places where you wouldn't immediately think you'll find them but you will or places you'd think you'd find them but won't - I think that has more to do, in those cases, with local history and culture as well as whose made stands both for or against 3rd-wave feminism at larger levels and how successfully.

Otherwise though, considering the intensity of their ideology it would make sense that you'd either see them all around you or wouldn't see them at all. They either successfully take over the culture in a particular place, get ejected immediately as a toxin, or if they find allies in a position of power typically the people who find them toxic (and identity politics) slowly leave on their own.

Most of the feminists from the MENA region and the Indian subcontinent couldn't be anything but liberal feminists without a large amount of censure from their host community. If they're more radical than that, like Taslima Nasrin (and Hirsi Ali herself) then all manner of s*** ensues for them. I know I can only be safely as radical as I am because I'm a white European, and even then, I have to be careful. Feminists have almost an obligation to bang on about women's choices to dress modestly, have arranged marriages, be homemakers, etc - or face the consequences. The consequences for someone like me include things like getting trolled online; for them it could be violence - organised violence up to the level of fatwa. They have to be moderate with both their feminism and their secularism.

And so it is with criticism of partriarchal religious and cultural practices. For example, I'm not just against forced marriage; I'm ideologically opposed to arranged marriage, as well. I know full well that some people 'choose' arranged marriage, but my feminism doesn't focus on choice but on oppression. I'm not in favour of outlawing the practice but I am in favour of people having a discussion about it - but there's no real discussion. The discussion starts and ends with 'forced marriage is bad, but arranged marriage is a choice, and choice is good, so it's a non-issue'. This totally ignores the factors of social/cultural coercion and the way that male/female relationships are seen in cultures where having children is seen as a duty instead of a choice.

I come from a traditional Christian background myself (am now an atheist) and so this is a sore point for me; even though there's no arranged marriage in my culture, there were limiting ideas about what women and men can and should do with their lives. I basically had the choice of become a nun or get married and have an ineffectively-controlled number of children, according to the church I was raised in. I grew up hating my body and feeling like femaleness was a curse because I wasn't keen on either of those 'choices'. So I know intimately what a betrayal it is to focus on choice at the expense of dismantling patriarchy.

Anyway, ranting aside, most liberal feminists IRL are supportive of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, as all decent people should be, but they'd rather not think too much about the sort of issues she raises. I think the sort of issues she raises should be a central concern of modern feminism.

I will answer you. Because feminists hate sexualy attracrive women they jealous them. They want revenge them using these hidjub or whatever you call it.Because no body wants to f**k feminist. OMG it is just the case of resentiment.
All leftist movement is the movement of ugly mean phisicaly damaged people. Even their preaching of love is diguised anger.
Do you realy think that all this comedy with feminists leftist antifa has something to do with justice? Dont make me laugh! It is a total resentiment.
Feminist have nothing to lose. Who will pay attention to them! It doesnt make huge difference either they in hidjab or not.
And wtf -i hear discussion about hidjub in relation to europen christian countries ???! !! ! wtf is going on!! !!
Stop the boleshit once and for all.

Yes good call walking away, Amebix. This person won't be reasoned with, this is especially apparent since in his response to you he shoves some words down your throat that had little to do with what you said, and they just happen to justify his preconceived notion that started this thread . That is the height of intellectual dishonesty imo. With such an absurd premise though I suppose he needs extreme compensation mechanics.

Or maybe... he is onto something . Could it really be that you and me both (not assuming you are liberal, but lets go with the OP's logic here because he sure is quick to try and label people) along with potentially 50% of the entire worlds population ONLY care for Muslims... Our family, pets, hopes and dreams, basic human respect regardless of labels, all just nothing to us and we don't even know it .

duplicate thread?

It’s easy to cherry pick crazies, but no serious feminists has said women aren’t oppressed in Muslim countries. I don’t think they care what religion you are either; it’s about women. They talk about Muslims a lot because they are uniquely discriminated against in the US.

Quite. Merged "why do feminists only care about Muslims?" and "why do feminists not care about the Hijab?".

damn didn't realize I already responded to this...so never mind.

Last edited by Sweetleaf on 27 Oct 2017, 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Umm where are you getting that the majority of feminists think Islam is a feminist religion? I have never heard that.

Well that is an interesting conspiracy theory...

Also resentiment isn't in the dictionary.

Nietzsche'snotion. I will put it in dictionary one day. I will.

Interesting post. I'm only highlighting this part because it's the one part of your post I would strongly dispute. I have heard people argue in favor of arranged marriage as a facet of culture, and whenever I've heard people defend it that way, I've seen many people reject that argument in disgust, as well they should. Most of the liberal literature I've seen on arranged marriage rejects the notion that it's by choice, arguing that women in those situations are coerced by oppressive familial and societal dynamics. A key value in liberalism is individual liberty and individual rights, and arranged marriage completely takes any individual agency completely out of the equation.

I thought your post was good and concise, and I totally agreed with it.