Can we know the truth?

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slowmutant
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06 Jun 2008, 9:22 am

The_Chosen_One wrote:

See above rose analogy.

I don't know what the rose analogy is supposed to mean.

Sand
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06 Jun 2008, 9:34 am

The insistence that humans are not machines is the last refuge of someone who claims some sort of hogwash about humans not being made of the same material stuff as everything else in the universe. It is a claim never substantiated in any reasonable form.

Orwell
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06 Jun 2008, 9:38 am

All right, now looks like a good time to throw in Keats' poem "Ode on a Grecian Urn."

"Beauty is truth, truth beauty"—that is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

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Sand
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06 Jun 2008, 9:44 am

I would prefer to throw it out. Whatever cuckoo thoughts might have possessed Keats, truth can at times be exceedingly ugly indeed.

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06 Jun 2008, 9:44 am

Sand wrote:

I would prefer to throw it out. Whatever cuckoo thoughts might have possessed Keats, truth can at times be exceedingly ugly indeed.

:shrugs:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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slowmutant
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06 Jun 2008, 10:38 am

Sand wrote:

We are not "just" machines in the nihilistic sense; I will not concede that. The fact of our bodies resembling biochemical machines doesn't reduce us to coffee grinders or blenders or leaf-blowers. Actual faith in something beyond what you can see is a first setp which many refuse to take. You cannot reduce the soul. The human soul is irreducable and always has been.

skafather84
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06 Jun 2008, 10:48 am

never say never. i saw an article just yesterday that they've actually started on holodeck style technology of projecting fully rendered 3D images. that would have been a never for most people 10 years ago...hell, probably some people would probably still say it's a never unless they saw the article and the work being done.

http://www.physorg.com/news131807820.html

skafather84
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06 Jun 2008, 10:50 am

Sand wrote:

truth can at times be exceedingly ugly indeed.

so would you rather a lie if it were prettier?

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06 Jun 2008, 11:42 am

skafather84 wrote:

Sand wrote:

truth can at times be exceedingly ugly indeed.

so would you rather a lie if it were prettier?

I've read some research that says that humans are only able to remain sane through a healthy level of self-delusion. If we were to be realistic, most people would be clinically depressed for most, if not all, of their lives.

So yes, most people do prefer a lie if it is prettier.

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Sand
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06 Jun 2008, 11:52 am

I wonder why this is put on the level of what I prefer. If a doctor told me I was suffering from an incurable cancer, something that occurs every day to quite a few people, would you say I should get an aesthetic uplift from the truth of the information? When the doctor finally diagnosed my son as a permanent quadriplegic I did not find this truth inspiring. As impressed as I am by some of Keats' poetic capability I am not seduced by foolishness.

I put people who believe in souls on a level with people who believe in elves, fairies, vampires and the tooth fairy.

ouinon
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06 Jun 2008, 12:26 pm

The poll refers to one truth, "the truth". Whereas I believe that what is true at one moment might not be true some other time.

Not that it is unknowable, nor that is beyond our means, nor that there is no such thing, nor that it is easy or hard to find.

What is truth today may not be tomorrow. Truth is an experience.

Therefore I cannot vote.

:study:

Last edited by ouinon on 06 Jun 2008, 3:12 pm, edited 4 times in total.

skafather84
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06 Jun 2008, 12:27 pm

Sand wrote:

the truth is supposed to be inspiring? maybe for the religious nutjobs who think the truth is in some invisible parent figure but the truth to everyone else is just more impetus to work to make things better.

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06 Jun 2008, 2:19 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Confused-Fish wrote:

in short, no.

We are but biological creatures with biological perceptions, how could we ever know the truth?

Many have glimpsed the Truth. Many have known it. Our minds allow us to know the Truth. The brain is the biological tether of mind, and mind the antenna to Mind.

you underestimate the vastness and greatness of the truth, we may glimpse small pieces or shadows of the truth, but never the whole truth. the truth is infinite.

ouinon
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06 Jun 2008, 2:44 pm

I don't think "truth" and "knowledge" connect particularly. Truth is a value judgement; "this is true". A reaction.

Ah, maybe "The truth is what I think"/believe ... then

:study:

Last edited by ouinon on 07 Jun 2008, 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

slowmutant
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06 Jun 2008, 3:59 pm

Sand wrote:

Your son has no soul?!

Is he some sort of monster or vampire?

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