Mass shooting at Oregon college: 15+ dead...

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Campin_Cat
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03 Oct 2015, 8:38 pm

Sylkat wrote:

Dear Campin Cat,

I rather do think that Brenda Spencer 'started this' or 'opened the floodgates' or 'Gave them ideas', though......a disgruntled/embittered young person with some connection to the school, who seems to have fantasized/contemplated/planned the attack for some time......what do you think?

Well, I see your point----but, I'm thinking it seemed that way because of how the Media blew-it-up (as they do with ANYTHING they think, will bring-in the ratings), because she was a GIRL. After THAT, no one could remember anybody, that came before her.

Did you, by chance, have a chance to skim-through that link? I thought you'd really find it interesting.....

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0regonGuy
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04 Oct 2015, 1:50 am

Tawaki wrote:

There are rumblings about not letting ASD folks being able to legally buy guns now, since the last three "I'm dying, and taking as many mofos with me"- Lanza, Mercer, amd the loner dude in Cali were all on the spectrum..

I for one hope it happens. The last thing we need are more stories of Aspergers kids shooting up their schools. Nobody should be owning these types of weapons, let alone people with mental issues.

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0regonGuy
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04 Oct 2015, 3:13 am

Peejay wrote:

I agree, this is the real concern... ie, what actually can be done? Is there any hope to improve this or is it too late and it will continue to get worse.
(I agree with the poster earlier (pezar I think) that `drug related` crime issues are a significant contributor to (bad) gun use)

They only way it will improve, is for it to first get worse. Until it gets so bad, and effects so many people, that the gun culture finally starts to crumble, it will not improve.

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Last edited by 0regonGuy on 04 Oct 2015, 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
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04 Oct 2015, 3:17 am

Peejay wrote:

You make an interesting point here;I did not know, that as you say that this is an unusually violent period, Do you think this violent period will lead to a less violent period or will it get worse & worse??

You're misunderstanding me here, America is actually at a historic low for violence with no indication that things will get anything but better, my point was that we're still more violent than many other countries even when all the crime involving firearms is discarded and without even controlling for weapon substitution, suggesting that the problem is something other than guns. Focusing on the guns, the tools sometimes used to commit violence, is foolish, when attacking the factors that cause people to be violent in the first place, e.g. poverty, desperation, untreated mental illness, etc would be far more effective; it's akin to strapping down an epileptic so his thrashing doesn't endanger anyone rather than treating the underlying cause of the seizure without depriving him of his liberty. This to me is the 'tell' in the anti-gun argument, the claim to simply want to save lives being undermined by the many simpler and more productive ways of doing that, leaving an antipathy towards firearms and their owners as the more plausible motive, as can be seen in the contemptuous and condescending comments being made here and around the web. You want to combat gun violence? End the drug war and overhaul the social safety nets in this country, going after the guns is just going to end in tears all around.

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Dox47
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04 Oct 2015, 3:20 am

0regonGuy wrote:

They only way it will improve, is for it to first get worse. Until it gets so bad, and effects so many people, that the gun culture finally starts to crumble, it will not improve.

You do know that violent crime is at a 30+ year low, and that there are more guns in circulation than ever, right?

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0regonGuy
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04 Oct 2015, 5:51 am

Dox47 wrote:

0regonGuy wrote:

They only way it will improve, is for it to first get worse. Until it gets so bad, and effects so many people, that the gun culture finally starts to crumble, it will not improve.

You do know that violent crime is at a 30+ year low, and that there are more guns in circulation than ever, right?

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Humanaut
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04 Oct 2015, 6:01 am

You can create a graph showing a declining trend by picking a different starting point.

Raptor
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04 Oct 2015, 11:14 am

0regonGuy wrote:

Tawaki wrote:

I for one hope it happens. The last thing we need are more stories of Aspergers kids shooting up their schools. Nobody should be owning these types of weapons, let alone people with mental issues.

And how would they know who has ASD? Are you suggesting creating lists from formal diagnoses and requiring mental health practitioners, under penalty of law, to submit lists of ASD clients to the government that would feed into NICS?

You're also okay with ASD folks being left defenseless.
:roll:

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glebel
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04 Oct 2015, 11:29 am

0regonGuy wrote:

Peejay wrote:

They only way it will improve, is for it to first get worse. Until it gets so bad, and effects so many people, that the gun culture finally starts to crumble, it will not improve.

If things got worse, you would start hearing more stories of someone with a gun stopping wannabe mass murderers. But, of course, you won't hear about these kinds of situations because the left-wingers who control most of the media wouldn't want us to hear that.

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Peejay
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04 Oct 2015, 11:44 am

Campin_Cat wrote:

Peejay wrote:

Firstly as I have said in a few other posts I like and admire lots of things about the US. (I have been equally damning about disgraceful British behaviours in the past too)

That’s fine, you can find fault with the British, everyday---and, twice on Sundays---you can’t, however, IMO, knock an ENTIRE country, of which you're not a citizen.

Sorry Campin cat, I can see my comments have got you angry and I do understand that a lot of Americans do not take well to criticism from abroad.(historically especially about guns)
However if you can dish it out (and the US regularly does, some of which I support) and tell other countries how they should act and want to `police` the world as the US does, then you should be big enough to take some criticism back back.
Anyway, I am not insulting you, I am attempting to have a debate here and am putting my opinion forward. I can point out my opinion which in this case happens to disagree with yours... I am not knocking the whole country as you state, I am criticising US gun policy and the effect it has on peoples lives.

I am not trying to offend anyone but I will absolutely maintain my point that as far as this particular issue goes the US has a problem (if you were offended by my word `sick` I apologise for that, I kind of meant an unhealthy or poorly state of affairs for a society to be in) but for you to extend that to criticism to everything and all US citizens your way of life etc etc is NOT what I have said. So stop bigging it up so much ,you are overcooking it.

trayder wrote:

I would disagree with the notion that one cannot criticise another country. Another planet perhaps, but another country on the same planet, no. This unfortunately for the more parochial minded is a shared world and what the neighbours get up to has a habit of affecting us over the fence.

In addition it is positively undemocratic to suggest that one cannot speak ones mind freely on ANY subject and more a function of the Dark Ages when the nobility and church decided who could say what and where.

That aside, America is a very influntial member of this global family of ours and it behoves us to take notice of what is undwrway over there and to urge common sense as any family member would. That does not mean that we dislike or hate our American brethren. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Just as we do not dislike our brethren from the Arab Peninsula but will still continue to encourage them to rid themselves of thinking as we all did during the Bronze Age.

Thank you Trayder, this is precisely my point.

Also The stats are fairly universally accepted they are not opinion;
The number of guns was not the number of people who owned/carried guns. I was really clear about this ... it is in fact the number per capita. The Gun homicide figures are pretty reliable too.

We are a global community and the US is almost the most influential country on the planet. Also as I mentioned the US is a global player. I scarcely dare mention the role of Hollywood in this US export.

Dox47 wrote:

Peejay wrote:

OK Dox47 I understand what you are saying more clearly and I think you do have a good argument in many ways.
However 340 million guns in the US is sure a lot of guns don`t you think?

Also the point that Campin cat says about getting innured to the problem (as Obama is also saying) ie after Columbine (we`ve all seen the Bowling for Columbine Movie) is of particular concern... this is why it is such a big issue.

Lastly re the media, its been a few years since my last visit to the states, but I would not have called Fox news and the Murdoch press left wing. Also don`t advertisers have a massive input into channel bias in the states? (I may be wrong here)

Peejay
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04 Oct 2015, 12:05 pm

p.s.
just a crazy thought (no evidence at all here) could this increase in gun ownership and decrease in violent crime be in part due to people (like some moms for example) commonly carrying small guns now? as a result of the following inner argument:

`I feel more afraid of gun crime so it would be stupid not to arm my self too`

that is kind of what I meant by this being a circular problem which feeds itself, and the new recruits to gun carrying being victims of the gun culture (I obviously don`t mean physical victims) ie....

More guns around means greater fear of guns means more gun carrying which leads to more fear of guns which means more gun carriers etc. etc,

Just a thought.

glebel
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04 Oct 2015, 12:12 pm

Peejay wrote:

p.s.
just a crazy thought (no evidence at all here) could this increase in gun ownership and decrease in violent crime be in part due to people (like moms) commonly carrying small guns now due to the internal argument:

`I feel more afraid of gun crime so it would be stupid not to arm my self too`

that is kind of what I meant by this being a circular problem which feeds itself. ie

More guns around means greater fear of guns means more gun carrying which leads to more fear of guns which means more gun carriers etc. etc,

Just a thought.

I would argue that more guns = less soft targets = a decrease in these incidents. The loonies never seem to shoot up gun shows, NRA meetings, police stations, or places with armed rent-a-cops, do they? They go to places where they know that there are few if any firearms.

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Dox47
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04 Oct 2015, 12:21 pm

Peejay, if I can convincingly argue that the guns aren't causing the violence, what bearing does the number of them have in the matter? You seem kind of fixated on the number, when I think that's a bit of a red herring.

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Raptor
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04 Oct 2015, 12:37 pm

Peejay wrote:

More guns around means greater fear of guns means more gun carrying which leads to more fear of guns which means more gun carriers etc. etc,

Fear of guns?
No, I have several of them.

For me it's more like a concern regarding f****d up people with guns acting out thier desires. Carrying a handgun for defensive purposes guarantees nothing, it only provides a tool that can be used to subdue a shooter.

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Peejay
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04 Oct 2015, 12:41 pm

Glebel, I think that the `soft target` argument has some traction, but am not sure this can explain the whole change over the last however many years.

You know, I have sometimes thought that things go in phases and this is a kind of killing is a recent`fad` (NB. no intention of trivialising at all here) A lot of killers are influenced by others and do copy cats.

The concern is will this style of `soft target` vengeance massacre;`I am the angel of death, they`ll take me seriously now` kind of spree, in schools & shopping malls etc will it fade away? I worry that it won`t.

Also the damage that can be done seems much greater now with accessibility to automatic weapons as in Columbine (correct me here if I have got this wrong).

There is a suicidal urge going through this too. And thisis international (just look at Isis their use of soft targets and suicide). this will be the method of suicide for more and more disaffected and marginalised people.

Dox47 Quote.
Peejay, if I can convincingly argue that the guns aren't causing the violence, what bearing does the number of them have in the matter? You seem kind of fixated on the number, when I think that's a bit of a red herring.

I think I do get your argument, I am just not convinced by it, I personally think the root is deeper.
Also re the number... Yes I am afraid that the number 340 million did blow my mind.... I (obviously naively!) wouldn`t have imagined that there were anyway near that many, I just dont think this is healthy.

oh and p.s. just so some of you can batter me a bit more, :wink:
I don`t agree with sport hunting either, culling (maybe), target shooting ... (OK why not.) but I am anti hunting here as are the majority of my fellow countrymen/women... A lot of you guys in the US sure love them guns.
I would even go as far as to admit, as suggested earlier, that I just don`t get the need for guns, surely as a species we should be trying to evolve away from this kind of thing? So this could be why I am being so vociferous in my opposition.

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04 Oct 2015, 12:59 pm

Peejay wrote:

Also the damage that can be done seems much greater now with accessibility to automatic weapons as in Columbine (correct me here if I have got this wrong).

Automatic weapons?
Are you trying to say semi-automatic weapons? There is a difference.
Semiauto rifles, handguns, and shotguns, have been available for over 100 years.

The fearsome and evil AR-15 has been on the market since 1963.

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