Feeling alienated from other females with HFA/Asperger's

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Hi there, everyone. I rarely post or even lurk on this forum anymore, so please forgive me if I'm skipping on the correct protocol ("autism and correct social protocol?", you say ). By that I mean if it would be a better idea for me to post in the introduction section, and at least attempt to get to know people a bit better by trying to contribute to pre-existing threads, before launching into a weighty topic of my own. I currently don't have the energy or drive to try and mingle, I'm afraid, so I'm skipping straight to making my own thread. Hoist the mainsail and scuttle the jib, mehearties!

This is going to turn into a TLDR sitaution, so if you (understandably) don't have an infinite amount of free time and caffeine/alcohol to wade through a 20k word quagmire (slight exaggeration there, but you get the jist), feel free to skip to the last paragraph.

I was wondering if anyone here feels different to other females on the high functioning end of the spectrum? What I'm about to say may sound implausible (nay, hysterical), but I've met and been acquainted with scores of HF (I'm using that as a short hand for HFA and Asperger's) females, in a variety of settings, all of whom were intelligent, accomplished, socially integrated people who could pass absolutely for neurotypical. They have a slew of qualifications to their names, or are working on them. They are doctors/ surgeons/ lawyers/ tech whizzes/ investment bankers/ stockbrokers/ dentists/ graphic artists/ successful entrepreneurs; etc. They are extroverts. They have wide social circles. They are all married or have a significant other. Most are mothers. They look and behave utterly neurotypical, and at the very least appear to be psychologically (I'm unsure of the correct term) in step with their age. All of them, with no exception, save for me. I reitterate that may sound like a bit of an exaggeration, but unfortunately it's not. Maybe I've been exceptionally unlucky, or I'm just not noticing the less successful ones. Maybe the ones like myself don't want to be noticed.

I have suffered from several chronic, oft-debilitating illnesses since my teens. These are all aggravated by stress, and consequently put the kaibosh on my attempt to complete my PhD, and many of my shots at work. Even when "in remission", however, I rarely even made it to the job interview stage, much less pass. I am not morose in company--I always try to adopt and maintain a "social face"--yet there is clearly something about me that puts almost everyone off. I'll admit it might not be a very convincing face, as, unlike other HF females, I'm probably not that skilled of an actress. Consequently, two decades on I have accomplished absolutely nothing with my life. I have not grown as a person. I am socially, psychologically and emotionally very, very immature (middle school level at the eldest). Anyone reading this who didn't know I was 35 would put me at 13. And the older I get, the worse it feels, because try as I might I can't seem to get myself to mature.

In any case, the result is that whenever I have to tell other female HFs about myself (which I invariably try to avoid, but sometimes there's no alternative), I feel like another species entirely--something far more disabled and stigmatised. I'm not saying these females don't have any problems, but that, whatever problems they do have evidently do not impede them.

TLDR: In summation, does anyone else feel like I do, or has experienced similar things? It would be fantastic to know I'm not alone. I hope I haven't put anyone's back up with this woe-is-me story. I must sound like the biggest debbie downer on the planet :

Hey, I just wanted to say I'm so sorry you're feeling like this. I can empathise with a lot of what you're saying, although I suspect you'd think I was one of the 'copers' if you met me. It's hard, because I only venture out in public with a lot of mental prep, which means that most other people only see me when I've mentally girded myself for the experience, and if I'm not coping, I hide. Some people even think I'm an extrovert but I absolutely am not. Left to myself, I would venture out of the house maybe once a week.

This is one reason I'm trying to hide my autism less actively, because I worry that if there is someone else whose made it out in public and is feeling vulnerable, I don't want to send the message that it's only ok to be here if you can hold it together. On Monday, I had to take my (NT) son to Playgroup, which is horrible. It was raining, so it was inside (=LOUD) and after about half an hour, I just asked another mum to watch my son for ten minutes and I went out of the room and curled into a ball and rocked for five minutes. No one knew that's what I was doing, but I layered the morning like that until just before we left when I felt like I was about implode and I just sat down in the corner, knees to chin, arms over eyes and sat there. Another mum came and sat next to me for a bit, but didn't say anything (she knows me a bit), and it made me realise, people maybe judge us less than we think they do.

What are your special interests? What do you do for work (if you do)? I certainly understand the desire to measure oneself against others, but the only person you can be is you. Perhaps you don't feel like you have 'progressed', but it's quite likely other people don't see you that way. Often we're our worst critics.

Re: feeling like other females' problems don't impede them, it might not be clear what they're sacrificing in order to make those strides. Or perhaps they've just found a way to balance things so that they can cope? Perhaps with a good psychologist or other help? I have kids and am married, but literally every other area of my life is failing at the moment. The sheer exhaustion of maintaining a relationship with husband and kids means that everything else is basically falling down. My husband does most of our housework/cleaning/organising, and I am a psychological mess who cries 75% of the time, but other people don't see that.

If you were on your way to a PhD you're obviously smart and capable. Perhaps it is just the physical/health difficulties, rather than aspieness, that have dragged you down from where you want to be?

I too seem to be completely different from the majority of HF women, and am just about the exact opposite of the HF women you describe. I've never been able to pass as NT no matter how hard I try - my body language, voice, and probably other things too put people off and give them the impression that there's something up with me, at least, and I try to keep the stimming subtle, but I can't function without it. I did graduate from college (with a bachelor's degree in biology), but have had a heck of a time finding a job. I've been trying for two years, but only ever heard a thing back from three - one gave me a preliminary interview, which I promptly failed because I have a tremor that made me look a lot more nervous than I actually was (I was only a little nervous, but the interviewer said I looked "extremely terrified"), the second got me a part-time cleaning job I had for a little over a year before the company was sold, and the third, someone sent me an email asking when would be a good time to call and ask me a few questions, but no one ever did call. I am an extreme introvert and only have one close friend, and zero friends I've met in person. I've never been in a romantic relationship of any kind, or even had anyone who's seen me in person show the slightest romantic interest in me. I too am probably around middle school age at most in terms of psychological and emotional development. I've been in and out of psychiatric hospitals for the past few months (currently I'm doing a partial hospitalization program, where I go in for group therapy sessions for six hours every weekday) for depression, self-harm, and thoughts of suicide. Big dragon hugs for you. You aren't alone.

That sounds more like a description of a group of NTs rather than a group of people whose "symptoms cause clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of current functioning" as per the diagnostic criteria for ASDs. That's not to say that people with ASDs cannot be intelligent or highly qualified, but the people you describe sound like they are well adjusted individuals. Either that or they all have extraordinary reserves of personal mental resources. I think I am pretty high functioning but I don't even come close to their level.

That's why I wondered whether there could be a perception of coping, but there's always a trade off. Like we get glimpses into people's lives, but don't see everything. It can feel like everyone else is succeeding, but we might just see one angle. i.e. I can succeed with study if I do it at a 3/4 load, have limited interpersonal commitments, am being financially supported, but no way I can balance f/t study in with normal life. I did my undergraduate degree while living at home (so didn't need to cook or clean and my parents paid for my degree, car etc), and even so dropped out of my honours year. I have several half degrees, but I would still consider myself well educated. But I've also never kept a full time job for more than 7 months.

I know for myself I can, with preparation and plenty of headspace afterwards, push through a social scenario and pass, but the cost is immense. And I feel like I'm drowning the whole time. I'm a good mimic, but being a good mimic doesn't actually remove the distress of that scenario. Or mean I know what to do. I just know how to disappear into the background of a conversation and look like I'm following. That's my point above. There would be women in my son's playgroup that wouldn't know I'm different, but then I've been to playgroup maybe 3 times in the last 12 months, always when I feel like I can. I've committed now to going every week (other than total disasters) because my son needs it, so possibly that will change. Who knows.

I don't actually know many women with ASD IRL though. The only one I know was my first ancient Greek tutor when I was 12, and I only found out recently she is autistic (I'm not in touch with her). I never twigged she wasn't like other adults, but now I think about it I did feel very comfortable around her. I find myself resenting other women's capacity for thriving a lot, but even that is perception. Everyone is battling crap in their lives, ASD is just a particular battle that most people, especially women, don't understand.

(Maybe you should disregard my view though, because I just asked my husband how long does it take people to work out I'm a bit odd, and he said "by what measure? Nanoseconds?" I actually would have thought I pass fairly well)

Thank you so much for responses, everyone. I apologise for being unable to respond to everyone individually, but I appreciate all of you nonetheless. Dragon hugs (I'm adopting that term now btw) all round!

@Sandpiper (and @plokijuh forthat matter): that's one of the things that shocks and astounds me, too. I still fit that description to a T. I have all the clinically indicated impairments, which, unlike the females in question, haven't decreased with age (in fact, some have actually gotten worse). Maybe I have a more "male" version of the syndrome than (most) other females on the spectrum, as the traits are usually more pronounced in males? I wonder, too, if perhaps a proportion of those women may have been misdiagnosed, and have in fact been NT all along? Given the right (or wrong) circumstances, it's possible for some children to exhibit symptoms of ASD--food intolerances causing hyperactivity being one example. Then you have the odd diagnostician who might see autism in everything, to the exclusion of other conditions/disorders. Improbable but not impossible. Even so, that doesn't account for all of them.

That being said, this is simply my experience, and I may have been unlucky. Add to this that maybe I'm only seeing the NT-like women because they're the ones who are most likely to be out in the world, whereas the ones more like myself might shy away from any sort of spotlight. I might not be seeing them because they don't want to be seen. There's also the possibility that some or many of them were born, or came into, fortunate circumstances. Maybe they were diagnosed early and were afforded resources that I didn't get. A supportive family would also have a huge impact (this was not my sitaution).


@plokijuh, I agree, re: the perception of coping. Some people on the spectrum, especially females it seems, can be excellent social mimics (and despite your husband jesting to the contrary, you don't come across at all odd to me--then again your written self may be entirely different than live interaction, and my definition of odd may vary from your husband's). Whilst they certainly appear to have everything going for them, even down to the NT behaviour, who knows what trades they are having to make, and how many meltdowns they're having behind closed doors? I only see what they choose to present to the world. Still--and I'm not trying to undermine your point here, because everything you say is completely on point--they at least do have those qualifications, careers, relationships etc, and the ability to pass for NT. I'm one of the extremely obvious cases of ASD, incapable of feigning neurotypicality despite my attempts. Like @dragonsanddemons says about herself, I give off a strong ASD vibe. My speech patterns, intonation, mannerisms, body language, eye contact, and everything else, come across as "odd", according to people I've asked.

I hate to sound like I'm bitter and resentful of other female spectrumers who thrive, especially when I don't know their circumstances; I'm well aware the problem lies with me, not them. They're deserving of their accomplishments. It's really myself I'm bitter towards, because I feel I have so much potential which has gone unrealized. After giving up on my PhD I tried going back to college several times, but quit because the bullying and ostracization I invariablu encountered caused my illnesses to flare up. I tried for nigh on a decade to monetize my hobbies (I made cutesy things and beauty products, amongst other things, and maybe I'm blowing my own trumpet but I think they were all pretty decent), utilizing numerous social media platforms and indie seller websites and crowdfunding. However I was evidently doing something wrong because no-one bought anything, invested, followed, commented or even liked anything. I set up stalls and gave my items away for free, asking only for feedback in return, but only a fraction of people ever responded, and it never generated any sales. Every endeavour was a spectacular failure.

Again, apologies for the doom and gloom. I'm blaming the weather this time,

^ What field were you working in for your PhD?

I don't think it's a problem with you that you're struggling with how your illness + ASD are impacting your life. I think anyone would struggle at least some of the time while carrying all of that. It's important to be able to vent sometimes, even if you know there are possibly other ways of looking at it. It's like feeling upset sometimes at NTs, or in my case sometimes feeling angry at people who don't have kids, even though you know everyone is carrying their own burdens, sometimes you just need someone to hear about yours. That's ok.

I think it's completely understandable that you're frustrated at feeling alone. I think I have been lucky in my life to have had a number of very socially adept but sensitive NTs who have given me a lot of explicit coaching on social interaction and how to do friendship, even though I wasn't diagnosed until later (quote from one, when I was at uni: "most people seem to have learnt how to gauge friendships in kindergarten, but I think you might just need someone to point these things out explicitly"). I never realised how lucky I have been in that regard until recently. Even that I married an unusually emotionally adept guy. I didn't deserve or earn any of those things, but I recognise that those things have made it possible for me to cope. My husband is a NT who loves me as I am, but struggles a lot with my meltdowns and he definitely is the person who bears the brunt of my difficulties. We both just spent the last hour crying (well he was crying, I was lurching between crying and flipping out) because we feel so overwhelmed by my crap. It's so messed up. I hate being like this. It really isn't fair on him. I'm coping really badly at the moment. He's just sent me to have a rest so we'll tag team having some space this arvo. [All of this stemmed from a situation where he told me he'd help me out in five minutes, and took fifteen, by which time I'd lost it (he left me to fend for myself with two kids in a social situation, then my daughter ran away and had a melt down and I completely lost it at him because I interpreted five minutes as meaning five minutes, whereas he said to me "you'd think as a linguist you'd be able to get that five minutes doesn't always mean a literal five minutes!" We've talked it out now and he recognises that was unfair).]

My writing is my saving grace, so I think you're right I seem normal when I write. Somehow something clicked while I was at uni and I learnt how to write, and it's my lifeline a lot of the time. Depending on how exhausted I am sometimes I can't even get full sentences out without massive stuttering and all my body twitches/ movements (and if I'm at all emotional, there is zero eye contact) etc get worse and worse, but if I can type I can communicate.

You might be right about over-diagnosis in some cases (although generally I think the opposite is true). My daughter is possibly on the spectrum, but we're not 100% sure if it's that or just sensory processing difficulties with a high iq (so is she not good at social interactions, or is she just more interested in figuring out more intellectually satisfying issues?). She's more socially adept than I was at her age. For my daughter at this point only the sensory stuff is really causing her much grief (really hard at school), so I want to wait until she's older because I don't want her held back by an incorrect label. We are getting her help for the issues she needs help with.

Funnily enough (because plokijuh is a linguist), modern languages.

Hey, do you know a research facility nearby looking for a socially inept spectrumer who jumped ship on their course midway? In which case, I happen to have a very particular set of skills. Just saying

Could you look at options for picking up part time? I know of a couple of single mums near where I live who are doing their PhDs part time.

I'd love to hear more about your research topic.

That’s called overdiagnosis, including self diagnosis, and will still be happening unless they find out a true biological test in HF diagnosis.

Not everyone who claims to be HF is necessarily really HF; I understand that it’s a “spectrum” but if one behaves naturally 100% like NT then no, they are not HF.
Even if they were HF as kids, if they behave naturally 100% as adults now then they are no longer HF; they got cured*.

*HF is purely a psychiatric symptom-based diagnosis; it is not yet a biological/medical diagnosis - there’s no biological markers in HF diagnosis; meaning if ZERO of symtomps exist in one then it’s no longer there by definition.
This is a key difference between medical diagnosis and psychiatric diagnosis - in thr former the symptoms are “signs” that this disease or virus exists in the person; like the flu which causes a set of symptoms- however its existence in one can be proven by a blood test.
This cannot be done in a psychiatric diagnosis; in psychiatry the set of symptoms *IS* the condition itself.

That's not a bad idea, and tbh I've considered it, but all in all I have more reasons not to. I think I've left it too long now, finances are tight, and my health is unrealiable. My written literacy has nosedived since then, too, which used to be my strong point, so my confidence is shot. I was more articulate and competent all round over a decade ago than I am now .

Thanks for the interest. It was about ASDs and foreign language aquisition.

Hey! My postponed research is into language acquisition and teaching practices for ancient languages! I've been toying with the idea of narrowing it to how ASD impacts on the picture. Sounds fascinating!

I'm sorry it's feeling insurmountable right now. Hopefully there's an avenue for it in your future. Have you ever thought about doing the research for your own interest? I for one would be a keen reader!

Hi agwhanooo and plokijuh,

Sorry for butting into your thread agwhanooo.

Just wanted to say both of your research topics sound really interesting.

I am trying to get back into studying linguistics. I'm just doing one subject at a time - that's all I can cope with at the moment. Am fairly nervous about re-learning how to write, citations, etc. (Though I was never great to begin with.)

agwhanooo, maybe your writing skills would start coming back if you started again. I like your writing style in this thread, anyway.

Maybe we should write a book together Ancient languages sounds equally fascinating. Are you concentrating on any one(s) in particular? In my much younger years I was obsessed with cuneiform scripts (still like them, but not to the all-encompassing level I was as a child). I was my school's resident "little professor" on Hieroglyphics. I went to the Yucatan peninsula once, which I refer to as my "looking at things with glyphs on and attempting to speak to the locals in Mayan" tour. Most people go there to party, shop, and catch a tan; I went there to visit the historical sites and spend literally all day in museums ("Excuse me, M'am, but we're closing now; and you've been here since opening time"). I'm a world of fun, Lol here I go again.




Hello there, fellow linguist You're not butting in at all--at least, I don't feel you are. Ask a neurotypical and you may get a different answer...unless that neurotypical happens to be a bogan, because bogans have mullets where their manners should be (and if you are a bogan, then I've just gone and shot myself in the foot haven't I. Apologies to you and your mullet ).

And thanks. I try, heh.

I'd be nervous, too; I think it's very natural. When I started my major I found the academic learning curve quite daunting, but I got the hang of it. Furthermore, everyone has their strong and weak points, so I'd say concentrate on areas in which you excel (even if you consider yourself not too great at anything, there has to be something you feel you do better at), and if possible try to seek help with what you're not (easier said than done, I know). Due to quite severe processing difficulties, the speaking part was, and has always been, my weakest point, and anxiety exaccerbated it. However, I was fortunate enough to find someone who helped me with speaking practice, and the consequent reduction in stress enabled me to scrape through. If help isn't available to you, or is something you'd really rather not seek, perhaps try to identify why you feel you weren't good in specific areas, and see if it's possible to change that. For example, is it due to lack of confidence? In which case, maybe find your level of comfort and try to challenge yourself little by little?

I'm not the best at dispensing advice, sorry.