Bluntness and honesty vs. politeness and white lies

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Thank you Serenity

I am fairly sure I didn't say anything except hello before the rude remark. She seemed friendly because she asked where if I would be going back to church, I did explain that I worshipped somewhere else now and she asked where but I didn't want to tell her, though I think the remark was before I refused to say where I was going. Oh well, when I see her coming now, I don't stop to talk, I just smile and say hello since she is nice but I don't really want to talk further with her now.

I do know something though and that is that people often think I am younger and because I am easygoing it gives them the impression that they can say anything to me, which is ok if they have something worrying them but not if they use it to be rude to me.

You're absolutely right, it's the sort of scenario where they should keep it to themselves unless explicitly asked.




Yes, 'truthful' and 'rude' are not synonyms - just as NTs often justify hypocrisy in the name of social niceties, some aspies (and come to think of it, some NTs) justify rudeness in the name of 'honesty'.
I think along the lines of 'if you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question.' The sort of rhetorical question asking yo to lie convincingly is something I have no patience for - adults should have the maturity not to ask such questions. It happened to me at a conference that someone explicitly, directly asked me what I had though of his beloved boss' talk - I answered, truthfully, 'I found it disappointing.' If he had asked how I had found the talks, I would have answered something like 'I was well impressed by X's talk', if he had asked nothing I would not have given him my opinion - politeness has its limits though, I wasn't about to wax lyrical on how much his boss' talk had enlightened me.
To point out an extreme example of rudeness I witnessed, somebody walked into an office, went to one of the girls there and said 'Hi, X - you're dressed like a prostitute.' It may have been what the person honestly thought, but it was still rude, obnoxious and uncalled for (nobody asked for an opinion).

That's the way the world works. I didn't make it up, I just live in it. I'm sorry the white lie business gets on autists' and aspies' nerves, and I'm very glad to be sensitized to that fact. A month ago, I knew nothing of these things, as indeed most NTs don't. This thread has been painful, but also, I hope, a learning experience.

Incidentally, the way the world works gets on my nerves too, just in other respects. Things are tough all over.



I'm not used to being challenged in situations where I am told my input will be welcome, especially not by the person who asks for that input in a friendly way.



True, and I think she got a distorted concept of my work as a whole because I described one particular difficult incident out of the thousands of mostly rather positive things that have happened in my interactions with my students.



I'm almost completely certain that I was the only one in the room that morning who didn't know the difference between a market segment and a market niche. As I wrote above, that's their field, they learn about it in their other classes. It wasn't their first semester in that university.

The ironic thing is, I'm nearly always happy to be corrected by my students. I would suggest that being corrected on that particular difficult morning was analogous to a situation described by another poster: telling a woman who's about to give a presentation that she looks terrible in her dress. It's true, but it makes her feel bad, and you get a lower quality presentation that way. If she's very skilled, sure, she can laugh about it, and that's the ideal way to respond. I would have liked to respond with a smile and a joke, too, but I wasn't strong enough at that moment. Are you strong all the time? Do you ever respond to things in ways you later wish you hadn't?



NTs can challenge pretty harshly, and I've been challenged by some of the best, but you're right, I didn't come here for an argument, and it was an ugly shock to find myself caricatured as one of "them", the phonies, the ones who make trouble for autists.



Exactly.



No comment.



Everything I came up with, she dismissed.



I felt duped. I felt she brought me to this thread under false pretenses, just because she wanted to publicly bash an NT.



If what I said stung, it's because there was truth in it. If there's no truth in it, it doesn't sting.



And you've certainly never said anything so deliberately mean yourself.



I don't want Greentea's friendship; I haven't wanted it since she switched from the warm and friendly tone of the 18 email messages that we exchanged to the bitter and dismissive tone of her attacks on my comments here.

As for respect, whether you respect me or not is your business, not mine.

Last edited by Arkadash on 18 Jun 2009, 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

That too, on the asking for an opinion thing. If "what do you think of this outfit?" means "tell me I look good," than what does one say to get an honest evaluation of whether or not the outfit compliments that person's figure, skin color, etc? If I'm lied to when I ask how something looks on me, how am I ever going to know what actually looks good on me? (OK, granted, there are mirrors.. but sometimes you want an outside perspective. An analysis of fashion. Whatever. There's always that answer of "I don't really like it, but it's not my style, you should ask someone who likes that style what they think of it" if it's just a style that the person being asked isn't fond of.)

Serenity, you taught me something new with your outstanding post. Thank you very much for sharing. It opens a whole new world to me. I did have a vague idea about it, but I had no idea how it worked in detail as a process. I was fumbling in the dark. Your post is in my file of WP inspiring quotes, ranking first now. Not that it solves much, because as you say, we can't do much about it, but at least I know what's going on.

Re: honesty vs. criticism - a subjective terminology / body language / tone can never be honesty, because it's just that - a subjective appreciation rather than objective truth. Eg. "You're fat" is a lie (how fat is fat is very relative and subjective, so you can't truthfully claim that you know if I'm fat or not), whereas "I think you've put on some weight, am I right?" is honesty (additional weight is a provable, objective fact). "You're irritating" is a lie meant to cause self-doubt in the receiver (you can't know how irritating or not I am to anyone except yourself, you certainly can't speak in general for the rest of the world population with any truth in it) whereas "I feel irritated by your behavior." is truth. Any message where we pretend our subjective feeling is objective truth is a blatant lie. Just measure yours and others' messages against this rule, and you'll always know if a message (yours or another's) is honesty or attack. It's that simple. Same goes to all the stupid-, lazy-, irritating-sayers.

Most people, NT and Aspie, have no idea what truth is, therefore they don't know what to expect as honesty. They just imagine this big monster with a foul, loud mouth telling them all the horrible subjective, negative opinions they have of them and pretending they're TRUTHS. Honesty, truth, is something else. Truth is Nature, it's love, it's God. It's caring enough not to mislead someone. And when you mean it with love, it can't come out as an attack.

My challenge is still on, by the way. Does anyone have an example of when a lie is preferable to the truth?

Last edited by Greentea on 18 Jun 2009, 9:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Sorry to jump in where I really didn't have too much say as it already was, but I do have to say one major thing dude:

one word you kept repeating over and over again: "feel"


Feeling and thinking are two entirely different things. Thinking uses logic, and feeling uses emotion. From where I stand, it appears that most people seem to use emotion over logic, and that's why white lies are so acceptable. I think it's utter crap, but then I think most of society's ideals are utter crap.

And half the time, when "someone's feelings have been hurt", it's mainly because they didn't have a very good opinion of themselves to begin with. I mean, in certain cases it's understandable, but in most cases the people who were "hurt" didn't think too highly of themselves to begin with; in my mind, that ain't my problem. The minute you start doing everything in your power to avoid offending people, you're left with nothing, cause something will always offend something else.

That doesn't mean criticisms can't be constructive, but even then, many people can't take it due to their own emotions of self-worth.

The fact that you felt trapped doesn't mean Greentea actually ambushed you - I don't think she needed to publicly bash and NT - that's still your anger speaking.

And no, something doesn't need to be true to "sting" - emotional abuse for instance is almost always based on the projections in the abuser's mind - it can hold no truth whatsoever and still be very damaging.

Last edited by Sallamandrina on 19 Jun 2009, 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

I feel the possibly stupid need to point out that that's a cultural standard that doesn't always apply. In many cultures, just mentioning that someone has gained weight, unless it's a solicited ("tell me honestly, do I look heavier?" or something to that effect) will always be an insult. In others "fat" is merely a descriptor term and isn't taken as seriously as it is in the US and some other countries. I think in some of Europe, it's used much more lightly, and isn't totally unacceptable to joke that someone is going to get fat from eating ice cream or something along those lines. Also, if someone was particularly skinny, and it wasn't due to an eating disorder, the term might not be totally inappropriate. (Say someone was unhappy with being underweight.. maybe for a health reason. Seeing them later after they've gained weight and saying "wow, look at you! you've gotten fat!" with a grin on your face might not be completely inappropriate. Depending on how well you know them, I guess. Probably still not something any of us here should risk, but just pointing out the possibility..)

Last edited by Maggiedoll on 19 Jun 2009, 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

Maggie, I edited that post you quoted, can you delete your reply to it?

No, you do; in fact, my great grandfather was dying in an old folks' home during the turn of the '80s, and he kept asking what his condition was. My grandmother and Uncle and mom wouldn't tell him. He finally pulled my other Uncle aside and asked him, and my Uncle told him the truth; apparently, there was a look in his eyes knowing that his pain was finally coming to an end; my grandmother reprimanded him for it, but I believe he did the right thing.

Learning to lie was a matter or survival for me, as I was severely punished as child for speaking my mind. I got back to my old ways once I leaved my parent's house, although I've learned to be sincere in a less brutal manner. But in some situations, it just doesn't matter how polite and tactful you are - what's more important is the intentions and hidden meanings people attach to your words. Even if there are none. I am only too familiar with accusations of challenging and judging people or thinking I'm better than them because of my lack of strongly emotional responses. Somehow, being calm and rational in a disscution equates having no feelings.

Saying to someone "I don't feel like seeing anybody" will always read "I don't want to see you". Stating that you're aware of a power game going right under your nose or that you see through the social niceties of someone that just pulled the knife out of your back will just make everybody hate you. The list is endless.

I try to interact only with people that can handle my honesty. In other social situations I usually get quite vague and avoid straight answers with a joke and even that is often seen as "unwillingness to share". Sometimes I just chose to lie to defend myself. I don't call these "white lies" as I don't feel the need to soothe my conscience about it with a nice word or the reassurance that I'm contributing to society's peace and balance, because there is no such thing.

I didn't make the world or the social rules the way they are, but I do believe that allowed to shown themselves intierly as they are, most people will end up ripping each other's heads off. And I know I don't have to respect every unwritten rule in society, I just have to pay the price for not doing so, and sometimes I'm too damn tired to do it and I've met quite a few NTs that feel the same.

Just to warn you: you'll be paying a far greater price to yourself down the line by respecting that rule. In fact, I've had a quote on Facebook regarding this; check it out:

“To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best day and night to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting.”- E.E. Cummings

Excellent quote and so very true. I only meant I have my moments of weakness when I take the easy way out in the hope that others will just mind their own beeswax for a change

Yeah they won't; that's why Greentea came up with the very effective "King is nude" strategy

That is the most helpful explanation, I will think on this *nods*