30 Apr 2011, 7:39 pm
My son has been diagnosised with AS i have concerns about my daughter so many traits she has been through the assessments and I have been told that she doesnt have AS but has maybe OCD can anyone explain the difference she has alot of sensory issue also she is the oldest she is different to her brother but only that she doesnt repeat things over and over I have read that it more difficult to diagnosis girls than boys anyone that has an insight to this please help.
Thanks
annmaria
30 Apr 2011, 7:47 pm
Thanks
annmaria
See this post
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt149789.html
30 Apr 2011, 10:15 pm
OCD and AS,while they can be com-morbid, are still two entirely different things.
OCD is a specific basal ganglia dysregulation disorder and manifests as explained in the post the link took you to.
AS is an autistic spectrum disorder which involves social deficits, concrete thinking, and may involve repetitive movements or fixations with certain subjects which might seem similar to OCD from the outside observe, but as explained by the post, actually isn't. AS is actually very similar, if not identical to non-verbal learning disorder.
What types of traits does your daughter have and why did they feel she might have OCD instead? Who did the assessment and how did they do it?
Genetics are actually complicated. Disorders or traits can be dominant, recessive, polygenic and so on.
Genes come in groups of usually two. One from the mother, one from the father. In a dominant disorder or trait, only one of those genes in the group needs to have a mutation. There is a 50% chance of the gene being passed on to the child, and thus the child being affected. However many dominant traits or disorders have what's called incomplete penetrance. That means, for some reason or another, even though the individual has the mutated gene in question, they don't express the trait or symptoms of that mutation, or at least not to a strong degree. There are various environmental factors that are thought to come into play. For some reason, the gene might be switched off and the person only uses the non-mutated "good" gene. In neurological disorders, it might be that genes only have a certain window of opportunity to switch on such that they influence the development of the brain. A lot of neurological and neuropsychiatric disorders are far more likely to develop at one time in life than another.
In dominant disorders or traits individuals who express the disorder or trait can usually be found in every generation of the family, provided there are a few children in each generation.
In recessive disorders and traits both of the genes in the group need to have a mutation. In this case, each parent is usually a carrier. They each have a 50% chance of passing on their mutated gene. The child needs to get "unlucky" twice and has a 25% chance of inheriting a mutated gene from both parents. Individuals with the disorder or traits are usually only found in one generation of the family and are typically siblings.
Polygenic traits or disorders involve different mixtures of multiple genes. A common example is eye color. To complicate things, a study on schizophrenia seemed to point to different combinations of genes in different people as the root cause of their psychosis, and schizophrenia, whether genetic or not, is thought to depend strongly on environmental factors and hormones, as well as having a temporal dependence.
As far as I know, research into the cause of both AS and OCD is still on going, with the role of certain genes suspected but not well defined.
01 May 2011, 5:57 am
Hi Chronos
My daughter diagnosed with ADD as was my son ADHD until more reason for him AS. I know ADD can be similiar to AS also. Here are some of the everyday difficulties she faces.
She has been seen by a psychiatrist confirm ADD who has advise medication which she has been taking for a year has made a very significant difference for her in manging herself.
She has also been seen by paediatrian neurologist confimed ADD, educational psychologist x2 didnt confirm ADD, Speech and language therapist who specialises in ASD she said no to AS but it could be OCD so diagnosis not confirmed. She was also assessed by Occupational Therapist this is her findings.
OT findings query dyspraxia were motor coordination skills were assessed to lie in the Below Average range of performance but not within the clinical range for diagnosis of Dyspraxia/Development Coordination Disorder. she scored in the 'below average' range of performance in the Manual Dexterity tasks in which speed of performance was compromised.
IQ above average
Sensory issue smell, taste, light, noise, anxiety very anxious low muscle tone in fingers, toes and eyes flat foot. allergies to grass, dust mite, asmatic. Was terrified of dentist this has improved. very Clumsy always falling and hurting herself big improvement with this since taking meds before meds forgetful, disorgainised (still is), doesnt like to follow plan because if it doesnt work out exactly this will cause her stress, but she still plans her day out and expects us to following it, cannot use reward/consquences if behaviour is not good she gets to upset but I can talk her down needs me to pick her up on time if I am late this stresses her and she will phone and text me she will not wait if I drop her early even if she is very familar with the building needs me to wait untill time to go in this is with any activity she has. Doesnt like to go out with friends or keep in contact have to encourage this has difficulty with peoples not directly doesnt realise how good she is at anything she does for e.g. she plays the piano it will take her a long time to work it out but when she does it will be to a high standard this is with anything she does. School no behavioural prombles like her brother but very stressful for her I didnt really pick up on this until her brother went to post primary. when she stresses she gets ill headache, chest infection, stomach ache this can go on at times for many days, weeks eventually to the GP. She has difficulty following directions and her comphrension was low but this has improved she sometimes does not know how to follow up in conversation or what is expected of her. If I ask her to go to the shop for something new even after explaining it clearly she will buy the wrong thing or maybe come out empty handed, she doesnt like to ask people questions in shops or anywhere when she is looking for something in the shop and I tell her go and ask the lady she will say no you do it or she will not get what she wants this happens alot I encourage her to speak but she refuses I dont want to always do things for her and I don't but she will then lose out and this is all stressful. She has difficulty in choosing new clothes, shoes so she likes me to go with her or buy them for her she is 15 years old. She likes me to watch certain programmes with her she has them all pre-recorded if I am unable she gets very stressed and upset. Its like this is our time and nothing should get in the way we all know life is not like that. When she is watching tv or doing anything the door must be closed and it upsets her when people dont shut it so she is always shouting shut the door this is quite obessive and bothers her I know lots of different people have things that bother them but she has so many very anxious and stressful about anything new or that will change her plans everything predictable. also never knows what to wear when the weather changes no jacket when cold big boots when sun spilting the stones etc. same as her brother.
For me I thought it was ADHD and I knew what I need to live a good life with the family now AS and now Possibly OCD I just need to know so I can get on with our lifes. She feels she is a weirdo/freak because so many problems she has. I have looked up OCD some traits but she also has traits of AS or maybe it Just ADD.
Thanks
Annmaria
01 May 2011, 1:24 pm
People with OCD's obsessions are typically intrusive thoughts like "has a loved one been hurt?", "have I washed my hands?" or "have I locked the door?". People with AS's obsessions are usually something they are into like trains, cars, music or animals.
People with OCD's compulsions are thinks like asking the same questions over and over again for reassurance, or washing their hands over and over again. People with AS's routines are, well, I don't really know, but they are different.
People with AS and OCD may do similar things like line-up objects in alphabetical order, people with AS do this because they enjoy it and people with OCD do it out of anxiety.
I have both.
_________________
-Allie
Canadian, young adult, student demisexual-heteroromantic, cisgender female, autistic
01 May 2011, 7:50 pm
Hi ocdgirl123
Thanks for your reply my son who has AS doesnt really have special interest or maybe I dont understand but he is reading a book which has many follow ons so he needs to know that I will buy him the next book before he reaches the end of the one he is reading, he knows all facts about everything he likes but my daughter is the same my son repeats all the time things like do I love I hate him he can change these sayings from time to time he use to ask will I marry for what seems like a life time everyday hour by hour now he ask me have I gone crazy yet I tell him not getting there maybe wrong reply but know matter what I say he will repeat this until he finds something new to say. He needs reassurance all the time sometimes it feels like every minute I know he is not around me all the time with school and other thing he does but it is very tiresome. My daughter whom this discussion is about doesnt repeat things she keeps everything inside but does explode from time to time or doesnt express herself until I ask.
I am just trying to work out what there needs are I think I can help and help them to manage themselfs but its really important for me to understand. Not sure if I am making sense. Thanks again for your response.
Annmaria
01 May 2011, 8:06 pm
Hi SuperTrouper. I was replying to what ocdgirl123 had said, I am trying to find out exactly what my children needs are, I have many diagnosis and assesements done, I am very confused, I need to know what is going on for my daughter, I have wrote about her differences if that is the right word, is it ADD or OCD or AS or all how do I understand, I have put lots of comma's in not sure if this is the puncuations you need! ......
Thanks for your reply
Annmaria
01 May 2011, 8:42 pm
Hi SuperTrouper
I live in Ireland any specialist is vey difficult to find she has been assessed by many Occupational therapist, paediatric neurologist who is a specialist in ASD and worked in America for 20 years with children , speech and language therapist who specialist in ASD.,a very good psychiatrist that works in the top university in Ireland and has written many books on Autism, also two psychologist whom I have seen private.
I am just very confused thought maybe I would get valuable info on this site. My son was diagnosised by information from the psychiatrist and speech and language therapist but they are saying no that my daughter doesnt have AS but maybe OCD, she has been diagnoses with ADD I feel as her mother, that she has a lot of AS traits but I am open to any other suggestions! all I need is to understand her needs.....
Thanks
Annmaria
01 May 2011, 9:13 pm
Thanks for your reply my son who has AS doesnt really have special interest or maybe I dont understand but he is reading a book which has many follow ons so he needs to know that I will buy him the next book before he reaches the end of the one he is reading, he knows all facts about everything he likes but my daughter is the same my son repeats all the time things like do I love I hate him he can change these sayings from time to time he use to ask will I marry for what seems like a life time everyday hour by hour now he ask me have I gone crazy yet I tell him not getting there maybe wrong reply but know matter what I say he will repeat this until he finds something new to say. He needs reassurance all the time sometimes it feels like every minute I know he is not around me all the time with school and other thing he does but it is very tiresome. My daughter whom this discussion is about doesnt repeat things she keeps everything inside but does explode from time to time or doesnt express herself until I ask.
I am just trying to work out what there needs are I think I can help and help them to manage themselfs but its really important for me to understand. Not sure if I am making sense. Thanks again for your response.
Annmaria
You're welcome!
_________________
-Allie
Canadian, young adult, student demisexual-heteroromantic, cisgender female, autistic
04 May 2011, 11:53 pm
My daughter diagnosed with ADD as was my son ADHD until more reason for him AS. I know ADD can be similiar to AS also.
I'm not really sure how. People with ADD have difficulty paying attention. I'm sure this can cause some social problems but I think it would be more in terms of upsetting people for "not listening" or forgetting dates, or becoming board with people and losing interest. Someone with AS alone generally wouldn't do such things more than the general population.
She has been seen by a psychiatrist confirm ADD who has advise medication which she has been taking for a year has made a very significant difference for her in manging herself.
She has also been seen by paediatrian neurologist confimed ADD, educational psychologist x2 didnt confirm ADD
Did you ask how they came to their conclusion in both cases? I hate to say it but frequently people will deviate from standard diagnostic protocols in favor of their own feelings, and while I don't discount the necessity to have a "feel" for disorders in diagnosing, unfortunately, when probed for the reasons for their conclusion, many times they were based on misconceptions, so it's conductive to determine how and why they have come to the conclusions they do.
OT findings query dyspraxia were motor coordination skills were assessed to lie in the Below Average range of performance but not within the clinical range for diagnosis of Dyspraxia/Development Coordination Disorder. she scored in the 'below average' range of performance in the Manual Dexterity tasks in which speed of performance was compromised.
Hans Asperger noted his subjects to be clumsy. This aspect of AS did not make it into the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria, however it may be part of diagnostic criteria used in other parts of the world, I'm not sure. There is also something called Non-Verbal Learning Disability which is very similar, if not identical to AS, and does include poor motor skills as part of the criteria. Did you ask why she thought OCD was a possibility?
Sensory issue smell, taste, light, noise,
Sensory issues are common in AS and may be addressed in certain assessments but are not actually part of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM-IV.
There are many things that can cause anxiety to it's not really indicative of one thing over another.
While some studies do find hypotonia in some individuals with some ASD, it's not really an indicator of an ASD. Most people are allergic to grass and dust mites, and afraid of the dentist.
very Clumsy always falling and hurting herself big improvement with this since taking meds before meds forgetful, disorgainised (still is), doesnt like to follow plan because if it doesnt work out exactly this will cause her stress, but she still plans her day out and expects us to following it, cannot use reward/consquences if behaviour is not good she gets to upset but I can talk her down needs me to pick her up on time if I am late this stresses her and she will phone and text me she will not wait if I drop her early even if she is very familar with the building needs me to wait untill time to go in this is with any activity she has. Doesnt like to go out with friends or keep in contact have to encourage this
Many of these things could be indicative of AS
This could indicate perfectionism, however it could also indicate a slow processing speed. I have a slow processing speed, and many learning disabilities specialists seemed to be of the opinion, especially because I also have OCD, that I was a perfectionist and was just not working quickly because I was afraid I'd make a mistake, as my work was usually close to flawless when I was given the time to complete it.
However this wasn't the case. I just don't work quickly. I don't perceive myself to be struggling in any way, and in most instances, I'm not consumed with worry that I might make a mistake. It's just the speed my brain processes incoming information. As I previously explained it, assume you have three different people and you blindfolded them and placed on object in their hand. Let's say that object was a rubik's cube, and their task was to solve the rubik's cube, but they may only take the blind fold off and solve it after they figure out what it is they're holding.
Let's say it takes person #1 two seconds to figure out it's a rubik's cube, but they are never able to solve it.
Let's say it takes person #2 one minute to figure out it's a rubik's cube, and three days to solve it.
Let's say it takes person #3 an hour to figure out it's a rubik's cube, but three minutes to solve it.
A person with slow processing speed but otherwise good cognitive functions would be person #3.
Another way to think about it is, if you have ever observed a humming bird or squirrel, they move quite fast. They processes the world around them much quicker than humans, though they're not nearly as bright. Humans on the other hand process information relatively slowly as compared to other animals, however humans are able to infer much more from that information. With respect to these other animals, humans have slow processing speed.
But then again it's entirely possible that your daughter is a perfectionist.
For me I thought it was ADHD and I knew what I need to live a good life with the family now AS and now Possibly OCD I just need to know so I can get on with our lifes. She feels she is a weirdo/freak because so many problems she has. I have looked up OCD some traits but she also has traits of AS or maybe it Just ADD.
Thanks
Annmaria
Here are my questions:
What was their reasoning in determining she did not have AS, as compared to her brother? In other words, what does her brother do that she doesn't, that makes them determine he has AS and she doesn't?
What was the specific traits that made them suspect OCD?
Was she washing her hands excessively?
Does she engage in odd, seemingly senseless rituals?
Does she check things multiple times?
Does she get thoughts of a violent, sexual, or otherwise inappropriate nature that disturb her?
Does she have magical thinking in the form of irrational fears that she knows are irrational? For example, is she afraid that if she goes through a certain doorway, someone she loves will die? If yes, does she do strange things to negate this?
All of those things are typical manifestations of OCD.
09 May 2011, 5:44 pm
Hi Chronos
Thanks for taking the time to response, I will try and answer your questions, regarding OCD and researching and your questions I dont think so, Speech and language assessement the difference I think, I havent recieved her report yet. Did speak with the therapist but I need it in writing myself so I can go over it I cannot process too much information verbally.
Speech and language findings for my son were His language scores scatters are atypical with elevated memory scores and considerably depressed scores in relation to verbal comprehension and semantic connections. Consistent with this profile, social and reading comprehension deficits co-exist.
My daughter did not have the same she has some comprehension difficulties nor atypical I have to wait for the report. This is why she felt my daughter doesnt have AS.
Regarding perfectionism her art teacher has mentioned this on a number of occassions.
The difference that I notice between them is she does not repeat things constantly, she is also more quiter and into herself. She manages her stresses differently, her brother who can be been very aggressive, very loud, hyper and needs everthing centered around him. regardless of this my daughter has had difficulties before her brother was born always so afraid, scared, so, so, nervous not sure how to describe it, toileting problems, issue with food, sudden noises or loud noise, she was nearly 13 before she stopped coming into our bed afraid sleeping on her own, very attached to me, needing help with homework all through primary school, post primary things to seem to come together for her.
She had a PSYCHO-EDUCATIONAL ASSESSMENT July 2010 this is some of the findings!
From the results of the projective techniques used, she presents as being aggressive with affective blocking. She shows signs of tension and she is inclined to be suspicious of others.
From the results of the above assessment, she presents as a girl of normal (average) intelligence. However, there was a significant discrepancy when comparing the composite scores of the WISC-IV. The Full Scale Intelligence Quotient may therefore not be a reliable indication of her true potential. The variance in scores does indicate some difficulty with cognitive processing.
The Processing Speed Index (PSI) provides a measure of the child’s ability to quickly and correctly scan sequence or discriminate simple visual information. It also measures short-term visual memory, attention and visual-motor coordination. She scored well above the average range.
An Attention Deficit Disorder is not indicated by the above tests. She does take meds and this could have affected the results, even though she reports that she did not take her medication on the day of the assessment.
Reading and spelling levels are within normal limits for she chronological age. However, she does struggle with comprehension which will make learning difficult.
The above assessment did not identify any significant emotional disturbance. However, there appears to be affective blocking and she may have selected socially acceptable answers to questions.
It is of concern that she falls frequently and is inclined to be clumsy. There is little to explain this from the results of the assessment. From the information given, it is essential that she has an Occupational Therapy assessment. Of note is the fact that she has improved significantly, according to her mother, since taking meds. The medication may be improving her ability to plan ahead and be less impulsive, resulting in better control.
Recent S&L assessment suggest IQ above average and school results are improving but I feel the meds allow her to focus and they have helped her to achieve this.
OT assessment showed she has slow processing speed, this was mentioned in the but the school havent pick up on this she is doing exams this year and because of her low muscle tone in her fingers and slow processing we applied for extra time so she can have breaks as she can feel a lot of pain in fingers and wrist when writting for a long time. No extra time given.
But the educational assessment said she showed above average in realtion to the speed processing index bit confused about this?
I am not so good with punctuations etc been told it alot on this site doing my best!
My son demands lots of my attention, but we do try to give both as much as possible so I dont feel that she goes unnoticed so to speak. The S&L did say that siblings of a child with AS can be ridgit, but I still feel that with her difficulties there is a problem. Would like a answer and all the different opinions makes it very complicated. Sometimes I feel maybe I am reading into things and then I feel I am not very confused!! !
Her exam results in school are mostly A's & B's!
Thanks again
Annmaria
10 May 2011, 12:48 am
Thanks for taking the time to response, I will try and answer your questions, regarding OCD and researching and your questions I dont think so, Speech and language assessement the difference I think, I havent recieved her report yet. Did speak with the therapist but I need it in writing myself so I can go over it I cannot process too much information verbally.
Speech and language findings for my son were His language scores scatters are atypical with elevated memory scores and considerably depressed scores in relation to verbal comprehension and semantic connections. Consistent with this profile, social and reading comprehension deficits co-exist.
My daughter did not have the same she has some comprehension difficulties nor atypical I have to wait for the report. This is why she felt my daughter doesnt have AS.
Regarding perfectionism her art teacher has mentioned this on a number of occassions.
The difference that I notice between them is she does not repeat things constantly, she is also more quiter and into herself. She manages her stresses differently, her brother who can be been very aggressive, very loud, hyper and needs everthing centered around him. regardless of this my daughter has had difficulties before her brother was born always so afraid, scared, so, so, nervous not sure how to describe it, toileting problems, issue with food, sudden noises or loud noise, she was nearly 13 before she stopped coming into our bed afraid sleeping on her own, very attached to me, needing help with homework all through primary school, post primary things to seem to come together for her.
She had a PSYCHO-EDUCATIONAL ASSESSMENT July 2010 this is some of the findings!
From the results of the projective techniques used, she presents as being aggressive with affective blocking. She shows signs of tension and she is inclined to be suspicious of others.
From the results of the above assessment, she presents as a girl of normal (average) intelligence. However, there was a significant discrepancy when comparing the composite scores of the WISC-IV. The Full Scale Intelligence Quotient may therefore not be a reliable indication of her true potential. The variance in scores does indicate some difficulty with cognitive processing.
The Processing Speed Index (PSI) provides a measure of the child’s ability to quickly and correctly scan sequence or discriminate simple visual information. It also measures short-term visual memory, attention and visual-motor coordination. She scored well above the average range.
An Attention Deficit Disorder is not indicated by the above tests. She does take meds and this could have affected the results, even though she reports that she did not take her medication on the day of the assessment.
Reading and spelling levels are within normal limits for she chronological age. However, she does struggle with comprehension which will make learning difficult.
The above assessment did not identify any significant emotional disturbance. However, there appears to be affective blocking and she may have selected socially acceptable answers to questions.
It is of concern that she falls frequently and is inclined to be clumsy. There is little to explain this from the results of the assessment. From the information given, it is essential that she has an Occupational Therapy assessment. Of note is the fact that she has improved significantly, according to her mother, since taking meds. The medication may be improving her ability to plan ahead and be less impulsive, resulting in better control.
Recent S&L assessment suggest IQ above average and school results are improving but I feel the meds allow her to focus and they have helped her to achieve this.
OT assessment showed she has slow processing speed, this was mentioned in the but the school havent pick up on this she is doing exams this year and because of her low muscle tone in her fingers and slow processing we applied for extra time so she can have breaks as she can feel a lot of pain in fingers and wrist when writting for a long time. No extra time given.
But the educational assessment said she showed above average in realtion to the speed processing index bit confused about this?
I am not so good with punctuations etc been told it alot on this site doing my best!
My son demands lots of my attention, but we do try to give both as much as possible so I dont feel that she goes unnoticed so to speak. The S&L did say that siblings of a child with AS can be ridgit, but I still feel that with her difficulties there is a problem. Would like a answer and all the different opinions makes it very complicated. Sometimes I feel maybe I am reading into things and then I feel I am not very confused!! !
Her exam results in school are mostly A's & B's!
Thanks again
Annmaria
A high verbal IQ and slow processing speed used to be associated with AS and non-verbal learning disability. Recent research as found that this does not necessarily hold for AS anymore however that may be due to the changing profile of those with AS as a result of fluidity and inconsistency in diagnostic criterias and diagnostic methods.
I believe, however, that it's still the most common type of scatter seen with non-verbal learning disability, which, as I have previously said, is similar, if not identical to AS.
It has been found that adults with AS can score very high on comprehension through their tendency to start to analyze social situations, and this has been described as an external acquisition of theory of mind.
I couldn't really say if she has AS or not...she could have it, she could have traits, she could have PDD-NOS or non-verbal learning disability may be a possibility.
10 May 2011, 2:33 am
Hi Chronos
Thank you again for you help, my gut tells me it is AS but who knows, we did the test on the Set of scientific tests related to Autism Spectrum Disorders the aspie quiz she scored 175 out of 200 findings likly to be aspie she also did the reading mind eyes and scored over 30 which I think is high.
I also took the quiz and scored a 183 out of 200 and scored high in the reading minds eye test. Suggested I am also likely to be an aspie no offical diagnosis never been tested but alway felt different could never understand why things have to be so complicated for me very black and white it either is or it not.
Dont know if it means anything, but for me I need to understand so that I can let my children use there strenghts and understand their weakness so that they can reach their potential.
Thanks
Annmaria
