Email from WP to ARC request debate on WP with S.B Cohen.

Page 1 of 7 [ 103 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

memesplice
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,072

18 Jul 2011, 7:09 am

Quote:
Empathy in autism spectrum conditions

Simon Baron-Cohen, Carrie Allison, Bonnie Auyeung, Mike Lombardo, Bhismadev Chakrabarti, Amber Ruigrok, Meng-Chuan Lai.

The ARC began work in this area by studying 'theory of mind' (ToM) deficits in autism and Asperger Syndrome. ToM is the ability to attribute mental states to others, to infer what someone else is thinking or feeling. It is one of the two major components of empathy, sometimes known as 'cognitive empathy'. The other major component is known as 'affective empathy', or the drive to respond with an appropriate emotion to someone else's mental states. Our work is showing that both components of empathy may be impaired in autism and Asperger Syndrome.

We study the cognitive component using tests of emotion recognition and mental state inference. We study the affective component using measures of arousal (heart rate, galvanic skin response) and using questionnaires such as the Empathy Quotient (EQ). We have developed different versions of the EQ for different age groups.


http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/project_1_empathy

How do we respond to the above ?



Last edited by memesplice on 18 Jul 2011, 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

memesplice
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,072

18 Jul 2011, 8:02 am

This is a playful version just to get warmed up. Remember they are assuming a lack of empathy and accompanying lack of humor in our understanding of them- impaired ToM right? This is how I think they perceive us, and is the text here intended to be lightly satirical but a welcoming invite . I'm not for a moment suggesting sending this but I think it should contain some of these elements. ( Please do not send this to them.) It's about givingthe mail a humorus, 'warm' feel as well as some serious content. I think a lot of this NT-AS thing is caused by the descriptions professionals give of us and we just play up to them. What they don't realise play is the operative word. So in the spirit of WP...

Dear Dr. Cohen,

Greetings. A Wrong Planet research craft is currently in proximity to your own vessel and crew. We are monitoring your communications and the work you are publishing concerning our species. You have our assurance our weapon systems will be stood down for the duration of this proximity. We understand how you species require this assurance prior to entering into any communication. Please understand we mean you no harm and we are as curious about you and your crew as you seem to be about us.

You are cordially invited to come aboard our vessel , or send a delegation of staff, ( As Bonnie appears to be your chief and your most skilled communicator we request her presence in the delegation, if she is not too busy.)

During the communication exhange we would like primarily to discuss your assumption we lack 'emapthy'.
This has sparked a good deal of debate here . We believe we have emapthy but derive it or, its equivalance, from different processes to those you are comapring us with. We also would like to discuss with you some of the terms you use to describe this difference with a view to the positive modification of their implied meaning.- Our Empaths will be waiting to discuss this with you.

Some of our crew operate in very narrow fields at a much higher processing speed than your own species and are able to synthesize large areas of research and knowldge quickly and effectively, much faster than you yourself can . We request you subject your approaches , methodology and conclusions to a number of our high processors to test their interigity and validity. This will not take long and we believe it will benefit you if you are intending to develop these further. It would be unfortunate if you had been developing these models, and us having monitored them, and we were to point out these structural weaknesses at a future date once a more coherent body had been developed . This would be of no mutual benefit and you will have wasted a good deal of resources.

We look forward to your response. - There is a communication channel open 24 hours.

Please let us know in advance if you have any specific needs or indeed any questions before entering our environment, this is a NT friendly vessel, and we sincerely hope you will enjoy your visit.

Memesplice.

Wrong Planet



SyphonFilter
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Feb 2011
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 2,161
Location: The intersection of Inkopolis’ Plaza & Square where the Turf Wars lie.

18 Jul 2011, 10:29 am

I like the sci-fi aspects to your letter.



memesplice
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,072

18 Jul 2011, 12:10 pm

SyphonFilter wrote:
I like the sci-fi aspects to your letter.


Er yes, but is it enough to intiate first contact?

Do you think it should be more serious?

Will they understand this is us playing and being serious at the same time?

These are important questions.

Meme



btbnnyr
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 May 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,359
Location: Lost Angleles Carmen Santiago

18 Jul 2011, 1:57 pm

I support this idea of engaging with Simon Baron-Cohen on Wrong Planet.

My suggestion for initiating first contact is to be gentle with a serious letter inviting him to an online discussion about his research, perhaps about a specific research paper of his. Don't point out any of his mistakes in the letter. We can save that for the discussion. I don't think that the ego of Simon Baron-Cohen or any other NT researcher can handle the letter as it is. They will not appreciate its playfulness, and they will perceive it as a personal affront. They will not be in the state of mind that we need them to be in to have a serious discussion with us. I think that we will have to be gentle with them if we want them to engage with us.



btbnnyr
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 May 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,359
Location: Lost Angleles Carmen Santiago

18 Jul 2011, 2:13 pm

I am wondering if there are any websites, maybe blogs, collecting and discussing research papers about autism? Blogs with posts presenting one research paper at a time and evaluating it for accuracy and scientific validity? Ones that point out erroneous assumptions wherever they are found? Ones that point out factual and logical errors wherever they are found?

Just because a research paper has been published does not mean that it does not contain erroneous assumptions and conclusions. NTs have their "Peer Review". We should apply our "Logical Review" to the results of their "Peer Review".



memesplice
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,072

18 Jul 2011, 2:27 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
I am wondering if there are any websites, maybe blogs, collecting and discussing research papers about autism? Blogs with posts presenting one research paper at a time and evaluating it for accuracy and scientific validity? Ones that point out erroneous assumptions wherever they are found? Ones that point out factual and logical errors wherever they are found?

Just because a research paper has been published does not mean that it does not contain erroneous assumptions and conclusions. NTs have their "Peer Review". We should apply our "Logical Review" to the results of their "Peer Review".


Very good suggestions - especially the logical review of peer review. Aslo gentle touch is approriate.

Thank you btbnnyr

Meme



OddFiction
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Aug 2010
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,090
Location: Ontario, Canada

18 Jul 2011, 2:45 pm

Actually i like it as it is.
The

Quote:
During the communication exhange we would like primarily to discuss your assumption we lack 'emapthy'.
This has sparked a good deal of debate here . We believe we have emapthy but derive it or, its equivalance, from different processes to those you are comapring us with. We also would like to discuss with you some of the terms you use to describe this difference with a view to the positive modification of their implied meaning.- Our Empaths will be waiting to discuss this with you.

paragraph needs to be clarified first though
Maybe something closer to

Quote:
During the communication exhange we would like primarily to discuss reports that you believe our species as an entire to lack a full ability or desire to express empathy ("affective empathy"). Much as with your own species, there are many of us who strongly desire to share in the emotions of others, some few of us who are overwhelmed by empathy, and of course those who sit aside and fall into your described pattern. Much as with your species. As for ToM theories which state our species is unable to understand the emotional or thought patterns of others, I must rely on well published writings of your own species which state that you are often challenged with "well if you were to walk a mile in my shoes", implying that thinking as another member is not a natural process. Amusingly, our species tends to devellop this ability later in the life cycle, and possibly to a better degree than your own... what with everyone trying to insist that your species - the so called "model species" - does this naturally. In fact a good number of us overachieve and devellop this ability to a greater extent, in an attempt to correct this.


_________________
By simply doing what they are designed to do something large and magnificient happens. In this sense they show us how to live; The only barometer you have is your heart. When you spot your flower, you can't let anything get in your way. - John Laroche


joestenr
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 318
Location: niantic connecticut

18 Jul 2011, 6:03 pm

I think the key question to ask of SBC is how many people in his research group infact have autism or aspergers. There are evidently quite a few of us that are easily as smart as any grad student or post doc he is going to have in his work group, so failing to have this level of direct access to the subjective aspects, creating a valid objective measure (such as an EQ scale) becomes an exercise in demonstrating observer bias rather than in shedding light on new information.

I understand the internal states or ToM of the LFA gentleman I work with as a job coach, I feel the emotions of the people closest to me stronger than my own, yet somehow by the measure he would use I have now empathy for anyone.
Such a representation (along with comparing us to sociopaths) does nothing but harm to both the people it claims to describe as well the research that he hopes to advance.

I will point out that I generally regard SBC as a highly intelligent man, so this isn't ment as a personal attack, it is however a refutation of the assertions he has made in 0 degrees of empathy
(just because you can't see whats on the inside doesn't mean it isn't there, its just in a form you don't comprehend)


_________________
to be lost I would have needed to know where I was going

"For success in science or art, a dash of autism is essential"
Hans Asperger


memesplice
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,072

18 Jul 2011, 6:12 pm

I agree the whole team are highly intelligent compassionate human beings. They only have part of the picture, as do we. This is holding us all back.



joestenr
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 22 Apr 2011
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 318
Location: niantic connecticut

18 Jul 2011, 6:24 pm

memesplice wrote:
SyphonFilter wrote:
I like the sci-fi aspects to your letter.


Er yes, but is it enough to intiate first contact?

Do you think it should be more serious?

Will they understand this is us playing and being serious at the same time?

These are important questions.

Meme


I would bet no. They will not get it unless you use thier own language to make the argument.


_________________
to be lost I would have needed to know where I was going

"For success in science or art, a dash of autism is essential"
Hans Asperger


memesplice
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,072

18 Jul 2011, 6:25 pm

Then let's do that- this is so potentially groundbreaking , its incredible. We can do this .



btbnnyr
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 May 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,359
Location: Lost Angleles Carmen Santiago

18 Jul 2011, 6:45 pm

I agree that the researchers are not purposefully malicious in their claims, but I also believe that we have to hold the truth far above the careers, reputations, or feelings of any of these individuals. This applies to Simon Baron-Cohen and all other autism researchers, autistic or neurotypical or whatever. Personally, I can't say for sure what the truth is about empathy and autism or anything else and autism, but I don't think that we can automatically accept the assertions imposed upon us and everyone else by any group of researchers whose assumptions and conclusions may be erroneous due to the misinterpretations caused by the differences between their neurological makeup and that of any group that they have chosen to define and study. This is why we should engage the researchers in serious discussions to examine their research and catch any errors before the conclusions worm their way into the singular public perception of a diverse group of people.

We can start by looking at the background information, then the questions posed, then the assumptions made, then the design of the experiments, then the experimental results, then the analyses of the results, then the various conclusions that can be drawn from the results, then the various conclusions that have been drawn from the results. We can do this on a paper-by-paper basis. Think of it as "Quality Control" to avoid the influences of worthless research studies arriving at obviously ridiculous conclusions such as "Autistic people don't daydream".



Tressillian
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 61

18 Jul 2011, 9:55 pm

I went through the discussion and sifted it for pertinent information and tried to organize it in a logical manner. Perhaps a cleaner look can give others more insight into the questions that should be asked and what direction research should go. This is an attempt to support Memesplice's letter to ARC.

A link to the more organized theory
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... CIn4FhGzfs

A link to the raw quotes that I built the organized theory from
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... NwFHEfAsvg



Dantac
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2008
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,672
Location: Florida

18 Jul 2011, 10:37 pm

I don't see what the argument would be about. Its true.


Mirror neurons are always found to not function at all in people with autism and have very low activation rates (or outright lack of) in people with AS that have been tested. NT's always have those neurons working in perfect order.



aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,561

19 Jul 2011, 12:32 am

Dantac wrote:
I don't see what the argument would be about. Its true.


Mirror neurons are always found to not function at all in people with autism and have very low activation rates (or outright lack of) in people with AS that have been tested. NT's always have those neurons working in perfect order.


Recent studies suggest Mirror Neurons are functional in some people with Autism.

https://sfari.org/news-and-commentary/open-article/-/asset_publisher/6Tog/content/broken-mirror-concept-of-autism-challenged#ref1

Perhaps a more interesting article here. How much environment affects the ability for empathy.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/entertainment/feel+really/1021915/story.html

These empathy problems are far from limited to Autistic people. For a proper study all the environmental factors would need to be taken into account also. I don't think it would be possible to isolate environmental factors; there is too many, and everyone is influenced differently by them depending on their life experience. Research has suggested that some people have more sensitive mirror neurons than others. However, all these environmental factors can desensitize anyone to empathy, if applied in copious quantities.

I mentioned it in another post but they train the military going into combat with violent video games to desensitize them to the empathy that can freeze them in a combat situation when they can't pull the trigger, when faced with killing another human being. Not much choice in the harsh reality of combat, either kill or be killed.

I've heard some people here comment that they feel a great deal of empathy when watching a movie, but none with a real person. Normal people that have been abused by another individual, wouldn't feel the same empathy for that person than they would someone that has loved them and nurtured them. A simple brain scan can't possibly determine for sure whether or not it is a result of environment or genetics, or just the circumstance. For instance if a Autistic person hates sports, they are hooked up to a brain scan, and don't show much mirror neuron activity when the are showed a baseball game; is it because their mirror neurons are defective, or because they hate baseball?

And regarding people with Autism how many factors below would influence Autistic people more than the general population? It's also a snowball effect, isolation and social abuse can lead to stress, stress can lead to the loss of feelings of empathy, and the loss of feelings of empathy can lead to less motivation to interact with others leading to social isolation...... it can be hard to break out of the cycle, once an individual is in it. It's a little hard to understand which came first no feelings of empathy or conditions that lead to no feelings of empathy.

There also may be a danger here in the idea of not forgiving others or blaming the world for one's problems. It could be a self fulfilling prophecy.


Quote:
10 things that make us less empathetic

1) Fear. Fear can cut people off from their natural empathic tendencies, as self-preservation sometimes trumps concern for others.

2) TV. Watch someone watching TV: You often see a blank-faced trance. Adbusters magazine recently featured a frightening montage of children's unfeeling faces as they watch TV.

3) Stress. According to Mary Gordon, founder of Roots of Empathy, brains bathed in cortisol, one of the main stress hormones, apparently have difficulty empathizing.

4) Isolation. Studies have shown that people with more active social lives tend to be more empathetic.

5) Environments. There is some evidence that environment affects mental states. People who live in bland, ugly environments may become less empathetic.

6) Narcissism. People obsessed with themselves naturally can have trouble feeling for others.

7) Childhood neglect. Childhood neglect is seen as a key factor in the failure of people to develop basic empathy.

8) Unresolved trauma. According to psychologists, unresolved traumas may block natural empathic ability.

9) Some video games. Spending hours blowing away faceless entities may both undermine empathy and reinforce narcissism.

10) War. War is probably the ultimate de-empathizing trend. To bomb people, you need to not care about them.

10 things that make us more empathetic

1) Being around empathetic people. Mary Gordon, founder of Roots of Empathy, says empathy is taught by putting people in a "soup" of empathic behaviour. Empathy is emotional and contagious by nature, and cannot be taught intellectually or with stern lectures.

2) Listening. Just the act of listening to people can produce empathic behaviour, as long as they are not too boring.

3) Mirroring. People can practise empathic behaviour by mirroring or imitating other people. It may be the act of mirroring increases the activation of mirror neurons, which in turn improve empathy. However, mirroring can also be obnoxious.

4) Arts. Classical music, live concerts, live theatre, good movies ... As empathy is driven by sensory awareness, anything that amplifies the senses may increase empathy.

5) Suffering. Strangely, suffering and pain tend to produce empathy. It may be that people need to learn to empathize with themselves before they can empathize with others.

6) Caring for babies. Caring for babies and infants can naturally produce empathy. Generally, we are built to empathize with babies to an extent. However, small babies are examples of pre-empathetic behaviour as they can drive their parents to the edge, without seeming to care.

7) SInging. Singing in groups produces empathetic behaviour as harmonizing requires advanced mirroring.

8) Laughter. Because of its connective contagious nature, regular group laughter seems to improve empathic behaviour.

9) Animals. Although some see over-empathizing with animals as a sign that someone can't empathize with people, animals can be empathy-inducing. A special centre in West Bolton, in the Eastern Townships, uses animals to help treat autistic children.

10) Chick flicks. Although it's hard for me to say this, so-called chick flicks may be excellent exercises for the empathy-impaired. Although men generally resist them, chick flicks may create the "empathy soup" effect that allows contagious empathy.


When the cashier at Mcdonalds is abused these days because the fries were ten seconds late, what causes that? Autism? I don't think so. Much of it is related to expectation, experience, and a lack of empathy for others. What causes that? People didn't always act this way, when the stakes are so low; it happens all the time now. It's obvious that our culture is impacting most everything everyone does. It doesn't require a diagnosis.

I would imagine that those that are Autistic that have suffered a great deal at the hands of others, and never learn to dislike people, have more empathy than most, whether or not they can feel it or not.

I'm not stating here that the environment causes no empathy and that causes Autism. But it seems to me that in some cases, it might make the difference in someone seeking a diagnosis vs. someone not seeking a diagnosis.