Whats the difference between Schizotypal and Aspergers?

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TPE2
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25 Dec 2012, 7:38 pm

nouse wrote:
Lecture about schizotypal persons
http://blip.tv/enneagon/sapolsky-on-religion-2215838

Shamanism, religious views, loose connections and so on. There was need for schizotypals in the past but modern world discriminate against this personality trait. Schizophrenia under control. It was desired in small amounts in the past.


I suspect that, in present times, schizotypals simply changed of field and, instead of being shamans or founders of religions, they now are in things like philosophical/political/psychological theories.



naturalplastic
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25 Dec 2012, 9:09 pm

SammichEater wrote:
All of us here should know what AS is. This is Schozotypal personality disorder (source), to make an easy comparison.

Quote:
Schizotypal Personality Disorder

A pervasive pattern of social and interpersonal deficits marked by acute discomfort with, and reduced capacity for, close relationships as well as by cognitive or perceptual distortions and eccentricities of behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference);
odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or "sixth sense"; in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations);
unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions;
odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped);
suspiciousness or paranoid ideation;
inappropriate or constricted affect;
behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar;
lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives;
excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self.

Where do you draw the line between someone who is merely eccentric and someone who has something as horrible-sounding as schizotypal personality disorder?! Many people believe in telepathy, many have had bodily illusions, and most people are superstitious to one degree or another. It is only when you add a little paranoia, a degree of social isolation, some social anxiety... that a psychologist can begin to feel more confident in making this diagnosis. Perhaps, in the schizotypal, we are looking at a combination of slight psychotic tendencies mixed with social anxiety and/or Asperger's syndrome.


From this, I'd say the biggest difference is that schizotypal is more of a learned behavior, whereas AS is a neurological condition that is most likely genetic. They are not mutually exclusive.


Very different disorders-this and AS.
BUT to an outside observer they would LOOK similiar- one could be easily mistaken for the other. A person who was shy at a party because he was affraid of looking like a dork could be mistaken for a person who was shy because he was convinced that all of these strangers are in cahoots with the CIA to get him (or vice versa-the paranoid could be mistaken for the socially inept dork).

And ofcourse- as different as they are, there is nothing about one that means you couldnt also have the other at the same time.

And indeed one person on this thread has actually been dx'd as having both (forget your name but thanks for the input).



Noetic
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26 Dec 2012, 2:47 am

naturalplastic wrote:
A person who was shy at a party because he was affraid of looking like a dork could be mistaken for a person who was shy because he was convinced that all of these strangers are in cahoots with the CIA to get him (or vice versa-the paranoid could be mistaken for the socially inept dork).

You appear to be mixing up social anxiety and "being a bit shy" with pervasive developmental disorders. Autism isn't just being shy, and if your social interaction is lacking because you're just shy or have social anxiety, then it isn't autism.



naturalplastic
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26 Dec 2012, 9:00 am

Noetic wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
A person who was shy at a party because he was affraid of looking like a dork could be mistaken for a person who was shy because he was convinced that all of these strangers are in cahoots with the CIA to get him (or vice versa-the paranoid could be mistaken for the socially inept dork).

You appear to be mixing up social anxiety and "being a bit shy" with pervasive developmental disorders. Autism isn't just being shy, and if your social interaction is lacking because you're just shy or have social anxiety, then it isn't autism.





Folks with aspergers, or HFA stereotypically find social gatherings to be challenging and draining- because socializing isnt the inborn skill that it is for nts.

Thats what I should have said.

And there is a HUGE difference between that- and avoiding parties because you think the guests are in cahoots with the Illumanatti to get you.

Though a second person observing your outward behavior might find it hard to tell which thing you were.

However- when comparing an aspie(on one hand) to an nt with social anxiety or shyness(on the other)- the two not not only look similiar in behavior- they kinda ARE similiar.

In one case you dread social gatherings because they are a challenge, the other beause you're afraid folks wont like you. And why might someone think that folks wouldnt like them? Could it be because in the past folks really DID not like you- and that was because- you lack social skills- and had autistic traits? Lol!

Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. But Ill take your word for it that those two things are different.



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26 Dec 2012, 10:06 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Noetic wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
A person who was shy at a party because he was affraid of looking like a dork could be mistaken for a person who was shy because he was convinced that all of these strangers are in cahoots with the CIA to get him (or vice versa-the paranoid could be mistaken for the socially inept dork).

You appear to be mixing up social anxiety and "being a bit shy" with pervasive developmental disorders. Autism isn't just being shy, and if your social interaction is lacking because you're just shy or have social anxiety, then it isn't autism.





Folks with aspergers, or HFA stereotypically find social gatherings to be challenging and draining- because socializing isnt the inborn skill that it is for nts.

Thats what I should have said.

And there is a HUGE difference between that- and avoiding parties because you think the guests are in cahoots with the Illumanatti to get you.

Though a second person observing your outward behavior might find it hard to tell which thing you were.

However- when comparing an aspie(on one hand) to an nt with social anxiety or shyness(on the other)- the two not not only look similiar in behavior- they kinda ARE similiar.

In one case you dread social gatherings because they are a challenge, the other beause you're afraid folks wont like you. And why might someone think that folks wouldnt like them? Could it be because in the past folks really DID not like you- and that was because- you lack social skills- and had autistic traits? Lol!

Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. But Ill take your word for it that those two things are different.



You can have social anxiety for many reasons. It doesn't have to be a lack of confidence in your social skills. I was a very shy person and I had social anxiety before I even knew of my social deficits. As a toddler I hadn't had the experience to realize I was socially inept but I was still shy as far back as I can remember. My reason was that I wanted privacy. I avoided eye contact because I didn't want people to see right through me and know what kind of person I was. If eyes are the windows to the soul I wanted to guard my soul and not let anyone see it.


As I grew older and this need for privacy faded I started making proper eye contact more often. I never had trouble with eye contact as an Autistic trait it was the result of my shyness and defensiveness. I do have other social deficits to a very mild extent and I don't dispute my diagnosis.


For me social anxiety was the result of not wanting other people to know my innermost feelings and who I really am and not because of my AS. I had social anxiety as a personality trait alongside my AS but I still have AS and I am a lot less anxious in social situations than I used to be.



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26 Dec 2012, 4:55 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. But Ill take your word for it that those two things are different.

For the Aspie they don't socialize well because they don't empathize... that is, we aren't interested in and following the music of other people's lives. But for the person with Schizotypal Personality Disorder their imagination is running wild. It's not that they can't follow litte micro expressions, and the ins and outs of a person's song, but they misinterpret the tune they are singing because of their own magical thinking. The song they hear isn't the song at all. Is this close?


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TPE2
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26 Dec 2012, 6:45 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
However- when comparing an aspie(on one hand) to an nt with social anxiety or shyness(on the other)- the two not not only look similiar in behavior- they kinda ARE similiar.


Well, the stereotypically aspie who talks non-stop about his special interest is not much similar to a nt with social anxiety (and, again, for an outsider, can appear similar to a schizotypal who, with the few people he trusts, is always talking about the "conspiracy").



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26 Dec 2012, 7:51 pm

tall-p wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. But Ill take your word for it that those two things are different.

For the Aspie they don't socialize well because they don't empathize... that is, we aren't interested in and following the music of other people's lives. But for the person with Schizotypal Personality Disorder their imagination is running wild. It's not that they can't follow litte micro expressions, and the ins and outs of a person's song, but they misinterpret the tune they are singing because of their own magical thinking. The song they hear isn't the song at all. Is this close?

Im not sure whether you asking me for reassurance that you understand what I was saying. Or if you are trying to clear up something that I was asking.

If its the later- then you're explaining the wrong thing.

I just got through saying that aspies and szchotypals ( ie paranoids) strike me as being two OBVIOUSLY VERY DIFFERENT groups.

Its aspies (on one hand), and non paranoid shy people with 'social anxiety disorder' (on the other) who strike me as being similar.

Im looking for the difference between aspergers and social anxiety, not for the difference between aspergers and paranoia.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 26 Dec 2012, 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
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26 Dec 2012, 8:00 pm

TPE2 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
However- when comparing an aspie(on one hand) to an nt with social anxiety or shyness(on the other)- the two not not only look similiar in behavior- they kinda ARE similiar.


Well, the stereotypically aspie who talks non-stop about his special interest is not much similar to a nt with social anxiety (and, again, for an outsider, can appear similar to a schizotypal who, with the few people he trusts, is always talking about the "conspiracy").

But a typical aspie soon learns that rattling on about your special interest puts you in the social doghouse so the typical aspie clams up about the special interest -but fails to master small talk about sports to make up for it,and becomes a quiet wall flower indistinquishable for a social anxiety sufferer.



naturalplastic
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26 Dec 2012, 8:05 pm

seaturtleisland wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Noetic wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
A person who was shy at a party because he was affraid of looking like a dork could be mistaken for a person who was shy because he was convinced that all of these strangers are in cahoots with the CIA to get him (or vice versa-the paranoid could be mistaken for the socially inept dork).

You appear to be mixing up social anxiety and "being a bit shy" with pervasive developmental disorders. Autism isn't just being shy, and if your social interaction is lacking because you're just shy or have social anxiety, then it isn't autism.





Folks with aspergers, or HFA stereotypically find social gatherings to be challenging and draining- because socializing isnt the inborn skill that it is for nts.

Thats what I should have said.

And there is a HUGE difference between that- and avoiding parties because you think the guests are in cahoots with the Illumanatti to get you.

Though a second person observing your outward behavior might find it hard to tell which thing you were.

However- when comparing an aspie(on one hand) to an nt with social anxiety or shyness(on the other)- the two not not only look similiar in behavior- they kinda ARE similiar.

In one case you dread social gatherings because they are a challenge, the other beause you're afraid folks wont like you. And why might someone think that folks wouldnt like them? Could it be because in the past folks really DID not like you- and that was because- you lack social skills- and had autistic traits? Lol!

Sounds like a distinction without a difference to me. But Ill take your word for it that those two things are different.



You can have social anxiety for many reasons. It doesn't have to be a lack of confidence in your social skills. I was a very shy person and I had social anxiety before I even knew of my social deficits. As a toddler I hadn't had the experience to realize I was socially inept but I was still shy as far back as I can remember. My reason was that I wanted privacy. I avoided eye contact because I didn't want people to see right through me and know what kind of person I was. If eyes are the windows to the soul I wanted to guard my soul and not let anyone see it.


As I grew older and this need for privacy faded I started making proper eye contact more often. I never had trouble with eye contact as an Autistic trait it was the result of my shyness and defensiveness. I do have other social deficits to a very mild extent and I don't dispute my diagnosis.


For me social anxiety was the result of not wanting other people to know my innermost feelings and who I really am and not because of my AS. I had social anxiety as a personality trait alongside my AS but I still have AS and I am a lot less anxious in social situations than I used to be.


Sort of an inborn defensiveness thing. I sorta get it.



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26 Dec 2012, 8:16 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Im looking for the difference between aspergers and social anxiety, not for the difference between aspergers and paranoia.


Hans Asperger, "Autistic Psychopathy in childhood":

Quote:
Autistic children are egocentric in the extreme. They follow only their own wishes, interests and spontaneous impulses, without considering restrictions or prescriptions imposed from outside. They lack completely any respect for the other person. They treat everyone as an equal as a matter of course and speak with a natural self-confidence, In their disobedience too their lack of respect is apparent. They do not show deliberate acts of cheek, but have a genuine defect in their understanding of the other person.

For personal distance too they have no sense or feeling. Just as they unconcernedly lean on others, even complete strangers, and may run their fingers over them if they were a piece of forniture, so they impose themselfves without shyness on anybody. They may demand a service or simply start a conversation on a theme of their own choosing. All this goes, of course, without any regard for differences in age, social rank and common courtesies.


Not much social anxiety... (of course, Hans Asperger was talking about children, and it is indeed possible that these children will become shy as adults, as a result of much rejection).



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26 Dec 2012, 8:18 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
TPE2 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
However- when comparing an aspie(on one hand) to an nt with social anxiety or shyness(on the other)- the two not not only look similiar in behavior- they kinda ARE similiar.


Well, the stereotypically aspie who talks non-stop about his special interest is not much similar to a nt with social anxiety (and, again, for an outsider, can appear similar to a schizotypal who, with the few people he trusts, is always talking about the "conspiracy").

But a typical aspie soon learns that rattling on about your special interest puts you in the social doghouse so the typical aspie clams up about the special interest -but fails to master small talk about sports to make up for it,and becomes a quiet wall flower indistinquishable for a social anxiety sufferer.


Can be argued that the "learns" and the "soon" are the big difference between aspies and NTs...



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26 Dec 2012, 8:28 pm

VisInsita wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Aspergers and autism don’t involve magical thinking.


I know many blatantly autistic people who could be easily defined as magical thinkers according to that list, and there still isn’t any need for the attribute schizo- in their case.

Magical thinking is a natural human characteristic. According to a poll (results are from Wikipedia) 41% of Finnish citizens believe in God. As many (41%) believe there is some sort of spirit or life force. Only 16% believes there isn’t any sort of spirit, God or life force. In similar fashion 35% of my colleagues in my unofficial “survey” done for this purpose believed in past lives. All are, believe it or not, sane people, without any disorder. 60% of the same, sane colleagues believed in some sort of precognition.

Psychiatry in itself is often as purely subjective or cultural bias serving interpretation as any other form of magical thinking – the only difference being that psychiatry is clothed in our society in the sense of objectivity and precision. Whether the area of magical thinking or the person involved is seen as sane is completely arbitrary and often more bound to our cultural norms than anything else. Let’s go back only 40 years or so and homosexuality is a mental illness. What happened? Did the “illness” change or was it rather a change in the dominant ideology that dictates our beliefs, values, explanations … and mental illnesses?

I personally believe magical thinking is a natural human characteristic (well, everything existing is natural anyways) - all the way from our animistic ways of using language (Why did my keys went lost just now? [do they have a will?]) to our elaborate belief systems. I can’t see, how believing in God (many respected and also autistic people do) differ from believing in superpowers or clairvoyance? How does believing blindly in “signs” differ from believing blindly to your own “logic”? Different names for the same aspects of “reality” and as long as anybody can’t really differentiate the two, I don’t bother myself with any list or categorization.



I was under the impression believing in god or a simular life force, past lives and such is not magical thinking by the definition used for the disoderder. I think its more thinking certain patterns or things are trying to tell you something when there is nothing like that going on. Like if one thought the message of a movie or t.v show was being directed at them specifically. That is not the greatest example but yeah from my understanding it was more to do with flawed perceptions rather than spiritual beliefs or philosophies.


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26 Dec 2012, 10:42 pm

Overlap of autistic and schizotypal traits in adolescents with autism spectrum disorders:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20933368

Quote:
This study addresses the unraveling of the relationship between autism spectrum and schizophrenia spectrum traits in a population of adolescents with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD). Recent studies comparing isolated symptoms of both spectrum disorders as well as diagnostic criteria for each (DSM-IV-TR) suggest resemblances in the clinical phenotype. A group of 27 adolescents with ASD (11 to 18 years) and 30 typically developing adolescents, matched for age and gender, participated in this study. Within the ASD group 11 adolescents satisfied DSM-IV-TR criteria for schizotypal personality disorders. Autistic and schizotypal traits were identified by means of well validated questionnaires (Autism Questionnaire, AQ and Schizotypal Personality Questionnaire-Revised, SPQ). Significantly more schizotypal traits in adolescents with ASD were found than in typically developing controls. Besides high levels of negative symptoms, adolescents with ASD also displayed high levels of positive and disorganized symptoms. There appeared to be a relationship between the mean level of autistic symptoms and schizotypal traits, as well as specific associations between autistic symptoms and negative, disorganized and positive schizotypal symptoms within individuals. Schizotypal symptomatology in all sub dimensions that are reflected by the SPQ scores, was most prominently associated with attention switching problems of the autism symptoms from the AQ. These findings indicate that patients diagnosed with an ASD show schizophrenia spectrum traits in adolescence. Although other studies have provided empirical support for this overlap in diagnostic criteria between both spectrum disorders, the present findings add to the literature that behavioral overlap is not limited to negative schizotypal symptoms, but extends to disorganized and positive symptoms as well.


Social communication learning styles as a guide to treatment and prognosis: The social thinking-social communication profile :

http://www.socialthinking.com/images/st ... .26.10.pdf

One trait listed under CSC:

Quote:
It is not uncommon for the CSC to struggle to discern reality from fiction; many get cartoon or movie
characters stuck in their heads, and they insist that these characters are real. Most children (and many
adolescents) in this profile category struggle to distinguish between reality and fiction (i.e., they believe
that the images seen on TV are real). They may insist that things happen the way they do on TV and
become frustrated when unable to replicate them. Given their lack of defining these boundaries, a student
with CSC may state “my dad is buying a Rolls Royce,” when the NSC would have stated, “I wish my dad was
buying a Rolls Royce.”



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27 Dec 2012, 6:16 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
VisInsita wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Aspergers and autism don’t involve magical thinking.


I know many blatantly autistic people who could be easily defined as magical thinkers according to that list, and there still isn’t any need for the attribute schizo- in their case.

Magical thinking is a natural human characteristic. According to a poll (results are from Wikipedia) 41% of Finnish citizens believe in God. As many (41%) believe there is some sort of spirit or life force. Only 16% believes there isn’t any sort of spirit, God or life force. In similar fashion 35% of my colleagues in my unofficial “survey” done for this purpose believed in past lives. All are, believe it or not, sane people, without any disorder. 60% of the same, sane colleagues believed in some sort of precognition.

Psychiatry in itself is often as purely subjective or cultural bias serving interpretation as any other form of magical thinking – the only difference being that psychiatry is clothed in our society in the sense of objectivity and precision. Whether the area of magical thinking or the person involved is seen as sane is completely arbitrary and often more bound to our cultural norms than anything else. Let’s go back only 40 years or so and homosexuality is a mental illness. What happened? Did the “illness” change or was it rather a change in the dominant ideology that dictates our beliefs, values, explanations … and mental illnesses?

I personally believe magical thinking is a natural human characteristic (well, everything existing is natural anyways) - all the way from our animistic ways of using language (Why did my keys went lost just now? [do they have a will?]) to our elaborate belief systems. I can’t see, how believing in God (many respected and also autistic people do) differ from believing in superpowers or clairvoyance? How does believing blindly in “signs” differ from believing blindly to your own “logic”? Different names for the same aspects of “reality” and as long as anybody can’t really differentiate the two, I don’t bother myself with any list or categorization.



I was under the impression believing in god or a simular life force, past lives and such is not magical thinking by the definition used for the disoderder. I think its more thinking certain patterns or things are trying to tell you something when there is nothing like that going on. Like if one thought the message of a movie or t.v show was being directed at them specifically. That is not the greatest example but yeah from my understanding it was more to do with flawed perceptions rather than spiritual beliefs or philosophies.


dsm-iv criteria for StPD (bold mine):

Quote:
A. A pervasive pattern of social and interpersonal deficits marked by acute discomfort with, and reduced capacity for, close relationships as well as bycognitive or perceptual distortions and eccentricities of behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

(1) ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference)
(2) odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or "sixth sense"; in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations)
(3) unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions
(4) odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped)
(5) suspiciousness or paranoid ideation
(6) inappropriate or constricted affect
(7) behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar
(8) lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
(9) excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self

B. Does not occur exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia, a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, another Psychotic Disorder, or a Pervasive Developmental Disorder.



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27 Dec 2012, 8:08 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I was under the impression believing in god or a simular life force, past lives and such is not magical thinking by the definition used for the disoderder. I think its more thinking certain patterns or things are trying to tell you something when there is nothing like that going on. Like if one thought the message of a movie or t.v show was being directed at them specifically. That is not the greatest example but yeah from my understanding it was more to do with flawed perceptions rather than spiritual beliefs or philosophies.


Can you, Sweetleaf, tell what differentiates a person believing in an imaginary character like god hearing prayers and answering as actions from a person believing in a TV character thinking it answers to him/her as actions. What differentiates a belief from a flawed perception? My mind doesn’t really see any other difference here than an arbitrary cultural norm.

Reading these psychiatric diagnoses makes me feel a bit like when someone tried to explain to me that such a thing as art exists… To me a drawing is a drawing whether it’s hanging in a gallery or done by a three year old kid…