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guywithAS
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29 Jul 2011, 12:27 pm

i don't always agree with what some of you write, but i do really appreciate the level of intellect here. smart crowd



StuartN
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29 Jul 2011, 12:30 pm

MotownDangerPants wrote:
IMO, a sociopath just shouldn't be defined as a person who lacks empathy.


This is so right - the problem is that there is no single definition of "empathy". If it describes the entire communication process - observing another person, recognizing the emotional state they are in, feeling a corresponding emotion and responding appropriately - then many conditions are marked by a "lack of empathy".

Sociopaths recognize and manipulate emotional states, and can respond highly appropriately when they choose to do so, but do not feel a corresponding state - they can lack compassion or remorse.

People with ASD have poor recognition skills, but do feel and communicate appropriately when they are able to recognize or deduce emotional states - this recognition process is much more conscious and analytic than for most people.

We need to use words for each element of the communication loop, not "empathy" with multiple, ill-defined meanings.



guywithAS
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07 Aug 2011, 2:22 pm

http://www.crimetimes.org/05c/w05cp13.htm

ASPERGER'S DISORDER: A POSSIBLE EXPLANATION FOR BEHAVIOR
OF SUBGROUP OF SERIAL KILLERS?
A series of papers by J. Arturo Silva and colleagues suggests that some serial killers-including Jeffrey Dahmer and Theodore Kaczynski (the "Unabomber")-exhibit evidence of Asperger's disorder (AD), a variant of autism.

Autism is a neurological disorder that severely affects communication, social skills, behavior, and learning. Individuals with AD are far less impaired mentally and socially than other autistic individuals, and often are highly intelligent. Unlike people with autism, individuals with AD exhibit normal language development, although their speech tends to be somewhat eccentric. While very few people with AD are violent, studies do suggest that the prevalence of AD may be elevated in violent criminal populations.

Silva et al. say that Dahmer, convicted of serially killing and cannibalizing young boys, exhibited signs of AD from his earliest years. As a child, he exhibited poor eye contact, displayed facial expressions "devoid of emotional glow," had a rigid body posture and gait, and was isolated, socially inept, and "emotionally disconnected." He also strongly disliked change and was highly ritualistic and obsessive (with his obsessions including the collection of bones and dead animal bodies). All of these traits can be signs of AD.

Silver et al. argue that Dahmer's creation, collection, and utilization of cadavers can be viewed as "a sexualized form of the repetitive behavioral patterns typically encountered in AD." Dahmer's treatment of his victims, they say, is consistent with the fact that individuals with AD have trouble both in "theory of mind" (the understanding that other people have thoughts and feelings) and in distinguishing between people and objects.

Similar patterns, Silva and colleagues say, appear in the history of Kaczynski, who killed three people and wounded dozens by sending them mail bombs. Silva et al. note that Kaczynski was aloof and could not understand the feelings of others. He also exhibited an aversion to being touched and experienced extreme distress when exposed to noise, both common reactions in children with autism. A neighbor described the young Kaczynski as "a child who was an old man before his time," consistent with Hans Asperger's description of his young patients with AD as "little professors," and as an adult, Kaczynski was extremely impaired in social relationships. Kaczynski's preoccupations with bomb-making and the perceived evils of technology, the authors say, can be viewed as typical of the obsessive interests of a person with AD.

Silva et al. say their characterization of a subset of serial killers as having high-functioning autism could lead to a greater understanding of the etiology of both serial homicide and autism. "Psychological phenomena of central importance to understanding serial killers such as deficits in empathy have frequently been explained as originating from a psychopathic core," they say, "thereby missing the possibility that deficits in empathy may also be due to autistic psychopathology."

-----
"A neuropsychiatric developmental model of serial homicidal behavior," J. Arturo Silva, Gregory B. Leong, and Michelle M. Ferrari, Behavioral Sciences and the Law, Vol. 22, 2004, 787-99; and "The case of Jeffrey Dahmer: Sexual serial homicide from a neuropsychiatric developmental perspective," J. Arturo Silva, Michelle M. Ferrari, and Gregory B. Leong, Journal of Forensic Sciences, Vol. 47, No. 6, 2002, 1-13; and "Asperger's disorder and the origins of the Unabomber," J. Arturo Silva, Michelle M. Ferrari, and Gregory B. Leong, American Journal of Forensic Psychiatry, Vol. 24, No. 2, 2003, 5-43. Address for all: J. Arturo Silva, P.O. Box 20928, San Jose, CA 95160, [email protected] .



guywithAS
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07 Aug 2011, 2:23 pm

additional reading:

http://www.autismuk.com/?page_id=1133

Asperger’s Disorder remains an under-diagnosed condition because of clinical unfamiliarity with its adult presentation. As forensic clinicians become familiar with the presentation of Asperger’s disorder, it appears that affected individuals are over-represented in forensic criminal settings. Unique features of such persons may heighten their risks for engaging in criminal behavior. Both Theory of Mind deficits and a predilection for intense narrow interests, when coupled with deficient social awareness of salient interpersonal and social constraints on behavior, can result in criminal acts. We discuss comorbidities of forensic relevance. We present several cases that highlight these issues and review the relevant forensic literature. Furthermore, there may be valid questions as to degree of criminal responsibility in such persons. From a neuropsychiatric perspective, these disorders appear to have a biological underpinning for deficits in empathy, a finding that may have important repercussions when assessing remorse in criminal proceedings.



StuartN
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09 Aug 2011, 5:14 am

guywithAS wrote:
J. Arturo Silva and colleagues suggests that some serial killers ...


Dr Arturo Silva is widely regarded as a (rather harmful) joke, unsupported by either evidence or other academics. His diagnoses of people who he has never examined, often posthumously, are one instance of his strict adherence to poor methodology.



petitesouris
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10 Sep 2011, 9:28 pm

It has been suggested that terrorists like Breivik and McVeigh could not enter into any meaningful relationship. A sign of autism? I doubt it. Now that I have had more time to read into what happened, it has become clear that the massacrer saw people as little more than abstractions or as national symbols, which reflects disdain for human lives, their intricacy, and their subtle, individual, qualities, these details that make them irreplaceable. This is common of fascists (along with an absense of sympathy and overall psychopathy) not an indicator of autism. Most people, nt and aspie alike, understand that even those they despise still have rights and family members that love them or need them to survive. This creature is not an aspie, just someone with a perverse savior complex. I suppose that Adolph Hitler, Kim Jong Il, the islamic militants, and their nonautistic followers were/are aspies too?



Last edited by petitesouris on 12 Sep 2011, 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Sep 2011, 1:34 am

True, not all angry loner right wing gun nuts who lose it are aspies.

Should aspies who have meltdowns be allowed to have guns?



guywithAS
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11 Sep 2011, 8:46 am

StuartN wrote:
guywithAS wrote:
J. Arturo Silva and colleagues suggests that some serial killers ...


Dr Arturo Silva is widely regarded as a (rather harmful) joke, unsupported by either evidence or other academics. His diagnoses of people who he has never examined, often posthumously, are one instance of his strict adherence to poor methodology.


is that so?

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3 ... utism.html
(einstein/newton, by simon baron cohen)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical ... d_autistic
(thomas jefferson, mozart, by tony attwood)

you'll end up running out of autism researchers if you use this line of thinking



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12 Sep 2011, 3:03 pm

guywithAS wrote:
you'll end up running out of autism researchers if you use this line of thinking


I am quite attached to methodological soundness, and it has not diminished the supply of productive ASD researchers yet. I even listen to the quacks when they adhere to decent methodology, and reference their studies.



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12 Sep 2011, 4:44 pm

I like looking at the face of criminals in their photographs and making my own mind up. When I looked at his photo I didnt think AS immediately. He could be aspie though. If he is aspie he is on the high functioning end of things.

One thing I did notice is a cold, unrelenting look in his eyes. So even if he does have AS he definitely has some sort of sociopathy or psychopathy combined with it anyway. He clearly has no compassion for other humans as he killed so many people.

I have known many aspies and though they often dont have much emotional expression in their eyes, they have a sort of vulnerability that I cannot sense coming from him.

In some photos of him online he makes very confident eye contact with the camera in a way that is uncommon with aspies. I dont get the impression here that he has a problem with eye contact. My guess is sociopath/psychopath. It is very sad as he clearly has a brain disorder, he is definitely not normal.


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12 Sep 2011, 7:14 pm

Anders does not have Asperger's. This thread seems like an attempt to consume other diagnostics into one label. Stick with Human.



guywithAS
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12 Sep 2011, 10:07 pm

extractor wrote:
Anders does not have Asperger's. This thread seems like an attempt to consume other diagnostics into one label. Stick with Human.


what is your evidence for this statement?



extractor
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12 Sep 2011, 10:32 pm

guywithAS wrote:
extractor wrote:
Anders does not have Asperger's. This thread seems like an attempt to consume other diagnostics into one label. Stick with Human.


what is your evidence for this statement?


Common sense should be enough really. Wheres the evidence that he might have it? I havent seen any good arguments in this thread. Every trait that might seem like aspergers are human behaviour found in MANY disorders and some of them arent even synonymus with disorders at all. Social isolation, World of Warcraft and not so much success with women could surely fit a person with aspergers. Combined with extreme narcissism, 77 murders in cold blood, lies upon lies and good enough social skills. Not so likely afterall.



guywithAS
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13 Sep 2011, 5:33 am

extractor wrote:
Common sense should be enough really. Wheres the evidence that he might have it? I havent seen any good arguments in this thread. Every trait that might seem like aspergers are human behaviour found in MANY disorders and some of them arent even synonymus with disorders at all. Social isolation, World of Warcraft and not so much success with women could surely fit a person with aspergers. Combined with extreme narcissism, 77 murders in cold blood, lies upon lies and good enough social skills. Not so likely afterall.


i think there's a ton of evidence that he has at least a PDD, and you even see some of that from his father and how he conducted himself and their poor relationship.



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13 Sep 2011, 6:28 am

guywithAS wrote:
extractor wrote:
Common sense should be enough really. Wheres the evidence that he might have it? I havent seen any good arguments in this thread. Every trait that might seem like aspergers are human behaviour found in MANY disorders and some of them arent even synonymus with disorders at all. Social isolation, World of Warcraft and not so much success with women could surely fit a person with aspergers. Combined with extreme narcissism, 77 murders in cold blood, lies upon lies and good enough social skills. Not so likely afterall.


i think there's a ton of evidence that he has at least a PDD, and you even see some of that from his father and how he conducted himself and their poor relationship.


Really? Please elaborate if you're able.