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How would you describe your body build?
Tall and broad 20%  20%  [ 41 ]
Tall and narrow 25%  25%  [ 53 ]
Medium 21%  21%  [ 44 ]
Short and broad 19%  19%  [ 40 ]
Short and narrow 12%  12%  [ 26 ]
Other 3%  3%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 210

DemocraticSocialistHun
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29 Feb 2012, 7:21 pm

TechnoDog wrote:
rdos wrote:
NT tolerance is dependent on if they need us or not. In the past we had a function, and were tolerated. Now we have no function and are not tolerated.


Tolerance works both ways rdos.

And pray tell how do we have no function? Love to see what happens if they pick our hole group up & pull it out of society, soon see how fast it will crash.


I think he means no apparent function anymore, that our market is saturated, or appears saturated -- although it seems to me that we are needed more than ever to solve various crises such as peak you-name-it (oil, water, land, food, etc).

It even seems to me that some do not want solutions to these problems for various possible reasons that are off-topic -- although one can start new threads in the appropriate sections of the forum.


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31 May 2012, 12:44 pm

The Neanderthal correlation : Article : Nature by Jeff Hecht
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 3562a.html

Beth: "The genes for red hair and pale skin didn't match well enough to show a correlation, but I found a correlation for genes linked to other traits. There's a gene cluster linked to advanced mathematics skills, information processing, logic, analytical intelligence, concentration skills, obsession–compulsion and Asperger's syndrome. That cluster correlates very strongly. I can trace some genes back to the interglacial around 450,000 years ago, and others back to another burst of evolutionary innovation during the Eemian interglacial about 130,000 years ago." She rambled on with endless details..."

Beth:"...I found that Neanderthals lacked genes linked to successful socialization and management skills. They could count perfectly well, but they couldn't deal with groups. Socialization genes came from Sapiens..."

Jeff Hecht: "I stared at her. I couldn't tell that to the research council."

Beth:"The hybridization was successful in the Stone Age, but the environment has changed. I found that modern culture selects for socialization but against the Neanderthal traits for mathematics and intelligence," she said, and looked down. "I don't know how you'll survive when our genes are gone."


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31 May 2012, 2:05 pm

I don't know about that article. It sounds more like fiction than an actual scientific study. I like reading sci-fi sometimes, but not in scientific journals.

If it were true that Autism was linked to Homo sapiens neanderthalensis then wouldn't it be virtually impossible for Africans or people of nearly-pure African descent to have autism? Is this a fact?

PLUS if mathematical ability is linked to Neanderthal DNA, then that would mean that Africans wouldn't have the genes to do math. That's just not the case AT ALL.

I saw a famous anthropologist speak a while back--and he theorized that the ability for higher thinking, artistic creativity, and complicated tool making evolved back in Africa before Homo Sapiens ever left the continent. It was, in his opinion, due to a genetic mutation in the brains of ancient Homo Sapiens. He didn't believe that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens could interbreed.

I think it's a stretch to say we really understand DNA enough to claim that Neanderthals don't have DNA allowing them to socialize in groups well--there's not anthropological evidence to suggest they had trouble with grouping--they lived in groups. If there is any real, concrete evidence for this, outside of that fiction-like article then I'd like to see it.



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31 May 2012, 2:21 pm

"Perhaps surprisingly, Neanderthals must also have been caring: to survive disabling injury or illness requires the help of fellow clan members, paleoanthropologists say. A telling example came from an Iraqi cave known as Shanidar, 250 miles north of Baghdad, near the border with Turkey and Iran. There, archaeologist Ralph Solecki discovered nine nearly complete Neanderthal skeletons in the late 1950s. One belonged to a 40- to 45-year-old male with several major fractures. Ablow to the left side of his head had crushed an eye socket and almost certainly blinded him. The bones of his right shoulder and upper arm appeared shriveled, most likely the result of a trauma that led to the amputation of his right forearm. His right foot and lower right leg had also been broken while he was alive. Abnormal wear in his right knee, ankle and foot shows that he suffered from injury-induced arthritis that would have made walking painful, if not impossible. Researchers don’t know how he was injured but believe that he could not have survived long without a hand from his fellow man."

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-n ... z1wTc31Gge

I am curious what DNA groups the previous article identified as being necessary for living in groups. I would think that the fundamental group-cohesion biology would lie in empathetic and caring emotions--which it seems like Neanderthals had.

The did live in small groups, but that could be because they were voracious hunters and had huge body mass--so they wouldn't be able to have large groups based on their dietary needs (the groups would need larger territories than homo sapiens groups.



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31 May 2012, 2:42 pm

Zinia wrote:
...If it were true that Autism was linked to Homo sapiens neanderthalensis then wouldn't it be virtually impossible for Africans or people of nearly-pure African descent to have autism? Is this a fact?


Probably, depends on whether or not Sub-Sahara Africans really are 0% Neanderthal as claimed.

Zinia wrote:
PLUS if mathematical ability is linked to Neanderthal DNA, then that would mean that Africans wouldn't have the genes to do math. That's just not the case AT ALL.


Again, a lot depends on admixture.

Zinia wrote:
I saw a famous anthropologist speak a while back--and he theorized that the ability for higher thinking, artistic creativity, and complicated tool making evolved back in Africa before Homo Sapiens ever left the continent. It was, in his opinion, due to a genetic mutation in the brains of ancient Homo Sapiens. He didn't believe that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens could interbreed.


More politically correct, Afro-centric, Afro-elitist rubbish. Interbreeding is now a proven fact -- been that way for a few years now.

Zinia wrote:
I think it's a stretch to say we really understand DNA enough to claim that Neanderthals don't have DNA allowing them to socialize in groups well--there's not anthropological evidence to suggest they had trouble with grouping--they lived in groups. If there is any real, concrete evidence for this, outside of that fiction-like article then I'd like to see it.


Not large groups. They didn't constantly meet new people and size them up quickly. They lived in areas that wouldn't even support large groups of people who breed like rabbits -- temperate climates -- at least until fossil fuels and fertilizer came along.


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31 May 2012, 6:56 pm

DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:

Zinia wrote:
I saw a famous anthropologist speak a while back--and he theorized that the ability for higher thinking, artistic creativity, and complicated tool making evolved back in Africa before Homo Sapiens ever left the continent. It was, in his opinion, due to a genetic mutation in the brains of ancient Homo Sapiens. He didn't believe that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens could interbreed.


More politically correct, Afro-centric, Afro-elitist rubbish. Interbreeding is now a proven fact -- been that way for a few years now.



I don't know why you call it Afro-elitist. I think there's a lot of evidence that homo sapiens evolved in Africa, though there is that theory that they evolved spontaneously over various continents, from homo erectus, and then came together and bred--but I find that really hard to believe. And his theory for the higher-thought mutation was based in anthropological research. Dated artifacts found in Africa.

But I agree that there is evidence that neanderthals and homo sapien sapiens interbred. That anthropologist was just old-school, plus he didn't think there was enough DNA evidence (DNA testing is notoriously easy to contaminate with modern human DNA).

And even though I said that neanderthals did live in groups, I think it's valid to assume they didn't evolve the same type of social abilities as homo S. Sapiens even if there are environmental reasons for their small group size. So I take what I said about neanderthals being as social back.



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31 May 2012, 7:45 pm

Zinia wrote:
DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:

Zinia wrote:
I saw a famous anthropologist speak a while back--and he theorized that the ability for higher thinking, artistic creativity, and complicated tool making evolved back in Africa before Homo Sapiens ever left the continent. It was, in his opinion, due to a genetic mutation in the brains of ancient Homo Sapiens. He didn't believe that Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens could interbreed.


More politically correct, Afro-centric, Afro-elitist rubbish. Interbreeding is now a proven fact -- been that way for a few years now.



I don't know why you call it Afro-elitist. I think there's a lot of evidence that homo sapiens evolved in Africa, though there is that theory that they evolved spontaneously over various continents, from homo erectus, and then came together and bred--but I find that really hard to believe. And his theory for the higher-thought mutation was based in anthropological research. Dated artifacts found in Africa.

But I agree that there is evidence that neanderthals and homo sapien sapiens interbred. That anthropologist was just old-school, plus he didn't think there was enough DNA evidence (DNA testing is notoriously easy to contaminate with modern human DNA).

And even though I said that neanderthals did live in groups, I think it's valid to assume they didn't evolve the same type of social abilities as homo S. Sapiens even if there are environmental reasons for their small group size. So I take what I said about neanderthals being as social back.


Zinia is right.
Its got nothing to do with "Afrocentrism" or whatever boogeyman DSH is on about.

Its simply a fact that humans spread out of Africa, not once, but twice.

The genus homo originated in africa and then populated the whole old world.
Europe and Asia then became populated by populations of archaic humans like neanderthal, the denisovians, homo erectus, et al.

Then within africa a second group, the anatomical moderns, evolved and then they spread out into the rest of the old world. They drove the various archaics to extinction. And then went beyond even the old world to populate continents that even the archaic humans never reached like Australia and the Americas. And they became us.

The only question was whether the moderns totally wiped out the archaics, or did they do a little mixing with them before they wiped them out.

The latest data shows the latter. In certain regions some populations of living people have 1 to 5 percent archaic DNA (like neanderthal dna). So no modern population is a true "hybrid" with say, neanderthals, but some populations have some individuals (like ozzy osborne) with a little smidgen of neandertal dna.

Both Neanderthals and Moderns lived in groups. But moderns not only lived in larger groups, but the groups themselves were better able to interact with distant foreign groups for trade and alliances.

So I think that that maybe were the notion that autism is connected to Neanderthal genes comes from- modern autism spectrum people lack social skills so maybe that is their neanderthal legacy showing up. Neanderthals werent the diplomats and salesmen that the Moderns were.

Neither a fan nor a foe of the idea.

But Im officially diagnosed, and I happened to be barrel chested ( the norm for monkeys,apes, and archaic hominids including Neanderthal Man- but the exception for living humans) so who knows?



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01 Jun 2012, 9:03 am

Not thiis BS again - who bumped the topic? :roll:


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01 Jun 2012, 9:20 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Its simply a fact that humans spread out of Africa, not once, but twice.


Just wishful thinking. Every new hypothesis or theory that turns out to be correct suffers at least a decade of unwarranted ridicule as a "crackpot" theory after being proven (or at least shown to have more information backing it), usually more like a generation. There is too much to explain way. For example, it is known that a virus inserted itself into human and Asian ape gene pools around 3 or 4 million years ago, but not in African apes.


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01 Jun 2012, 5:23 pm

DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
The Neanderthal correlation : Article : Nature by Jeff Hecht
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 3562a.html

Beth: "The genes for red hair and pale skin didn't match well enough to show a correlation, but I found a correlation for genes linked to other traits. There's a gene cluster linked to advanced mathematics skills, information processing, logic, analytical intelligence, concentration skills, obsession–compulsion and Asperger's syndrome. That cluster correlates very strongly. I can trace some genes back to the interglacial around 450,000 years ago, and others back to another burst of evolutionary innovation during the Eemian interglacial about 130,000 years ago." She rambled on with endless details..."

Beth:"...I found that Neanderthals lacked genes linked to successful socialization and management skills. They could count perfectly well, but they couldn't deal with groups. Socialization genes came from Sapiens..."

Jeff Hecht: "I stared at her. I couldn't tell that to the research council."

Beth:"The hybridization was successful in the Stone Age, but the environment has changed. I found that modern culture selects for socialization but against the Neanderthal traits for mathematics and intelligence," she said, and looked down. "I don't know how you'll survive when our genes are gone."


That is a fictional short story presented in the back of a nature magazine from 2008. It's somewhat satirical in nature; obviously the story centers around a fictional research character described as having stereotypical traits associated with Aspergers. I wouldn't be surprised if the author got the idea for the fictional story from reading about the "neanderthal theory of autism" on the internet.

Jeff Hecht, the author of the story, who is a science fiction writer, presents the short story as one of his many works of fiction on his website.

http://www.jeffhecht.com/fiction.html

Quote:
My fiction
I write short science fiction, fantasy, and horror when the inspiration strikes. The inspirations may come from daily life, my writing about science, or elsewhere. Once in a while they're prophetic. The inspiration for "On 202" came from realizing I was hearing the voices of the dead over the radio -- this in the 1970s, when rock stations simply played rock, not classic rock, oldies or whatever other sub-genres their marketing wizards have invented. The inspiration for "The Number of the Beast" came from my real-life adventures with conspiracy crackpots and tabloids. "Rehearsals for Retirement" came from watching asteroids and the misadventures of NASA.

I am not prolific, but I do write in a variety of fields, from horror to humorous science fiction. Of late, I've been writing short-shorts, tightly told and often-twisted tales which are challenging fun. Ever wonder what the people of Nikola Tesla's time would have thought of the wireless communications systems Tesla tried to invent? Read "Operation Tesla." Looking for a solution to global warming caused by carbon dioxide? Read "The Greenhouse Papers." Lately I've written a few stores in the "Futures" series of speculations in the scholarly journal Nature. They're fun to write, and I hope they're fun to read.


The fictional story's premise is not logical in suggesting that modern culture selects against intelligence and mathematical skills. But the premise doesn't have to be logical because it is fictional story and the guy writing it is not a scientist.

Mathematical and reading skills measured in traditional IQ tests, are cultural byproducts. IQ tests continue to be revised with higher standards in Western Society, because of cultural factors. Neither mathematics or reading would exist without modern culture and the result of several thousand years of recorded collective intelligence.

At this point in time, there is no one in the field of genetics that has determined any specific function for the 1 to 6% remnants of archaic DNA (including Neanderthal) identified in most of the world's population.

The Barrel chest trait is considered normal in stocky individuals along with some individuals form higher altitude environments both in Europe and South America, theorized as an adaptation to lower levels of oxygen.

There could be a correlation of barrel chests and archaic ancestory, as well as many other traits seen in modern man, but specifics are not known at this point. Human beings have been measured as having different levels of archaic DNA, on every continent on earth. The origin of that archaic DNA is still not clear in all cases, particularly archaic DNA measured in Sub Saharan Africans.

A small percentage of mice and other animals have autistic like traits similar to those seen in human beings; loosely correlated to similar genetics as well.

Since both Mice and Men have a common rodent ancestor about 75 million years ago, there could very well be similarities in genetics as there are many other similarities in disorders and genetics between mice and men. If Neanderthals and Denisovans happen to share some of the same similar genetic material, it's not really to much more relevant whether we share similar genetic material with a neanderthal or a mouse; some animal kingdom members are functionally impaired by autistic like traits whether they are human or mice.

Humans are the only animals that have autism, because it is a disorder of social communication specific to human beings, defined by human beings.

If there was a DSM classification for neanderthals, for autism, it would likely be much different than what it is today, considering the definition of autism changes every few decades, and neanderthals had no written language provided by collective intelligence, to record the social/communication impairments of neanderthals in those days.

It is hard enough to define what Autism is today, with several million live individuals to select from and study on a real time basis, by individuals who are experts in the field, with decades of education, some of whom are diagnosed with autism themselves, such as the research group associated with Lauren Mottren and Michelle Dawson.

One day it is very possible that science will get a better handle on what causes symptoms of autism such as the loss of words in regressive autism, among those with abnormal brain growth because a common structural difference has been identified.

In general, in studying autistic like traits, connecting the dots with neanderthals, is not as useful as connecting the dots with mice, because there are no living specimens to work with.

Some dots have been loosely linked with archaic neanderthal dna and autism, but they are no more significant than similar associations linked with alcoholism.

Some rats have been shown to become more easily addicted or are more resilient to addiction to alcohol and similar genes in humans have been implicated as associated. We can study the behavior of rats, but we can't study the behavior of Neanderthals, only hypothesize on what that behavior might have been like, from the archaelogical record.

Considering Humans and mice display similar behaviors, some even with autistic like behaviors, it is safe to suggest that some neanderthals may have displayed these autistic like behaviors as well. But, it's not safe to suggest that autistic like behaviors started with Neanderthals unless they bred with mice.

We know more about mouse behavior than we are ever going to know about archaic Neanderthal behavior, even if we clone a neanderthal, because even if we were able to do so, we could not put a Neanderthal in the same archaic cultural environment.

Cultural environments are fluid human constructs; they can't be cloned. They are very much a part of what determines how a brain is going to function, as well as behavior, from the time of conception to death. Autism rates among Somalians born in Sweden, the US, as well as among the Amish, is evidence that the environment of culture and possibly geography, play a role in what is observed and defined today, across cultures and changing diagnostic criteria, as Autism Spectrum Disorders.



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01 Jun 2012, 8:57 pm

Only non-AS are caveman like.....their brain that is lol


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02 Jun 2012, 11:30 am

aghogday wrote:
DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
The Neanderthal correlation : Article : Nature by Jeff Hecht
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 3562a.html

Beth: "The genes for red hair and pale skin didn't match well enough to show a correlation, but I found a correlation for genes linked to other traits. There's a gene cluster linked to advanced mathematics skills, information processing, logic, analytical intelligence, concentration skills, obsession–compulsion and Asperger's syndrome. That cluster correlates very strongly. I can trace some genes back to the interglacial around 450,000 years ago, and others back to another burst of evolutionary innovation during the Eemian interglacial about 130,000 years ago." She rambled on with endless details..."

Beth:"...I found that Neanderthals lacked genes linked to successful socialization and management skills. They could count perfectly well, but they couldn't deal with groups. Socialization genes came from Sapiens..."

Jeff Hecht: "I stared at her. I couldn't tell that to the research council."

Beth:"The hybridization was successful in the Stone Age, but the environment has changed. I found that modern culture selects for socialization but against the Neanderthal traits for mathematics and intelligence," she said, and looked down. "I don't know how you'll survive when our genes are gone."


That is a fictional short story presented in the back of a nature magazine from 2008. It's somewhat satirical in nature; obviously the story centers around a fictional research character described as having stereotypical traits associated with Aspergers. I wouldn't be surprised if the author got the idea for the fictional story from reading about the "neanderthal theory of autism" on the internet.

Jeff Hecht, the author of the story, who is a science fiction writer, presents the short story as one of his many works of fiction on his website.

http://www.jeffhecht.com/fiction.html


I wasn't aware that the article was a work of fiction. Jeff Hecht has may not realize what he came up with is less fictional than it may appear to some.

aghogday wrote:
Quote:
My fiction
I write short science fiction, fantasy, and horror when the inspiration strikes. The inspirations may come from daily life, my writing about science, or elsewhere. Once in a while they're prophetic. The inspiration for "On 202" came from realizing I was hearing the voices of the dead over the radio -- this in the 1970s, when rock stations simply played rock, not classic rock, oldies or whatever other sub-genres their marketing wizards have invented. The inspiration for "The Number of the Beast" came from my real-life adventures with conspiracy crackpots and tabloids. "Rehearsals for Retirement" came from watching asteroids and the misadventures of NASA.

I am not prolific, but I do write in a variety of fields, from horror to humorous science fiction. Of late, I've been writing short-shorts, tightly told and often-twisted tales which are challenging fun. Ever wonder what the people of Nikola Tesla's time would have thought of the wireless communications systems Tesla tried to invent? Read "Operation Tesla." Looking for a solution to global warming caused by carbon dioxide? Read "The Greenhouse Papers." Lately I've written a few stores in the "Futures" series of speculations in the scholarly journal Nature. They're fun to write, and I hope they're fun to read.


The fictional story's premise is not logical in suggesting that modern culture selects against intelligence and mathematical skills. But the premise doesn't have to be logical because it is fictional story and the guy writing it is not a scientist.

Mathematical and reading skills measured in traditional IQ tests, are cultural byproducts. IQ tests continue to be revised with higher standards in Western Society, because of cultural factors. Neither mathematics or reading would exist without modern culture and the result of several thousand years of recorded collective intelligence.


Really? Why have human brains been shrinking since Cro-magnon man? Why pathologize intelligence with autism spectrum "conditions."

aghogday wrote:
At this point in time, there is no one in the field of genetics that has determined any specific function for the 1 to 6% remnants of archaic DNA (including Neanderthal) identified in most of the world's population.


They are too busy pathologizing. The politically correct "theory" regarding the number of human races is one. The agenda is not to end racism but rather perpetrate it. The theory permits, perhaps even damands, that variation be understood as deviation from the norm. "Autism research" is scientific racism. It is a perseveration in an attempt to protect the boundaries of an imaginary race that does not exist but is rather a hybrid containing the "right" H.s.s.-H.s.n. mix. Too much H.s.s. and you are probably a paranoid schizophrenic or something, too little, autistic. Under politically correct "theory" autistics, homosexuals, African-Americans, ad nauseam, are deviant variants, or arrested forms of the highest realization of the human race.

In the fourth reich, organizations that engage in eugenics and race hygiene have "family" or "autism" in their names.


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02 Jun 2012, 3:31 pm

DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
aghogday wrote:
DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
The Neanderthal correlation : Article : Nature by Jeff Hecht
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 3562a.html

Beth: "The genes for red hair and pale skin didn't match well enough to show a correlation, but I found a correlation for genes linked to other traits. There's a gene cluster linked to advanced mathematics skills, information processing, logic, analytical intelligence, concentration skills, obsession–compulsion and Asperger's syndrome. That cluster correlates very strongly. I can trace some genes back to the interglacial around 450,000 years ago, and others back to another burst of evolutionary innovation during the Eemian interglacial about 130,000 years ago." She rambled on with endless details..."

Beth:"...I found that Neanderthals lacked genes linked to successful socialization and management skills. They could count perfectly well, but they couldn't deal with groups. Socialization genes came from Sapiens..."

Jeff Hecht: "I stared at her. I couldn't tell that to the research council."

Beth:"The hybridization was successful in the Stone Age, but the environment has changed. I found that modern culture selects for socialization but against the Neanderthal traits for mathematics and intelligence," she said, and looked down. "I don't know how you'll survive when our genes are gone."


That is a fictional short story presented in the back of a nature magazine from 2008. It's somewhat satirical in nature; obviously the story centers around a fictional research character described as having stereotypical traits associated with Aspergers. I wouldn't be surprised if the author got the idea for the fictional story from reading about the "neanderthal theory of autism" on the internet.

Jeff Hecht, the author of the story, who is a science fiction writer, presents the short story as one of his many works of fiction on his website.

http://www.jeffhecht.com/fiction.html


I wasn't aware that the article was a work of fiction. Jeff Hecht has may not realize what he came up with is less fictional than it may appear to some.

aghogday wrote:
Quote:
My fiction
I write short science fiction, fantasy, and horror when the inspiration strikes. The inspirations may come from daily life, my writing about science, or elsewhere. Once in a while they're prophetic. The inspiration for "On 202" came from realizing I was hearing the voices of the dead over the radio -- this in the 1970s, when rock stations simply played rock, not classic rock, oldies or whatever other sub-genres their marketing wizards have invented. The inspiration for "The Number of the Beast" came from my real-life adventures with conspiracy crackpots and tabloids. "Rehearsals for Retirement" came from watching asteroids and the misadventures of NASA.

I am not prolific, but I do write in a variety of fields, from horror to humorous science fiction. Of late, I've been writing short-shorts, tightly told and often-twisted tales which are challenging fun. Ever wonder what the people of Nikola Tesla's time would have thought of the wireless communications systems Tesla tried to invent? Read "Operation Tesla." Looking for a solution to global warming caused by carbon dioxide? Read "The Greenhouse Papers." Lately I've written a few stores in the "Futures" series of speculations in the scholarly journal Nature. They're fun to write, and I hope they're fun to read.


The fictional story's premise is not logical in suggesting that modern culture selects against intelligence and mathematical skills. But the premise doesn't have to be logical because it is fictional story and the guy writing it is not a scientist.

Mathematical and reading skills measured in traditional IQ tests, are cultural byproducts. IQ tests continue to be revised with higher standards in Western Society, because of cultural factors. Neither mathematics or reading would exist without modern culture and the result of several thousand years of recorded collective intelligence.


Really? Why have human brains been shrinking since Cro-magnon man? Why pathologize intelligence with autism spectrum "conditions."

aghogday wrote:
At this point in time, there is no one in the field of genetics that has determined any specific function for the 1 to 6% remnants of archaic DNA (including Neanderthal) identified in most of the world's population.


They are too busy pathologizing. The politically correct "theory" regarding the number of human races is one. The agenda is not to end racism but rather perpetrate it. The theory permits, perhaps even damands, that variation be understood as deviation from the norm. "Autism research" is scientific racism. It is a perseveration in an attempt to protect the boundaries of an imaginary race that does not exist but is rather a hybrid containing the "right" H.s.s.-H.s.n. mix. Too much H.s.s. and you are probably a paranoid schizophrenic or something, too little, autistic. Under politically correct "theory" autistics, homosexuals, African-Americans, ad nauseam, are deviant variants, or arrested forms of the highest realization of the human race.

In the fourth reich, organizations that engage in eugenics and race hygiene have "family" or "autism" in their names.


The point on mathematics and intelligence was brought up in the short story, as positive correlates with Neanderthal DNA. Mathematics and the elements of traditional IQ tests that are measured are a result of culture, not inherent intelligence. The type of intelligence required to live in the wild, is not the same type of intelligence developed in modern western cultures that comes as a result of 12 to 18 years of formal education to learn cultural abtractions developed over thousands of years from recorded collective intelligence.

Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon man were feral humans beings. What we have now for the most part are domesticated human beings.

When animals, including human beings are domesticated bodies and heads become de-masculinized, and less robust. Bigger brains are required to control more robusts bodies. The size of a brain and the intelligence measured in standard IQ tests are not directly related to the size of one's brain. Genius has been measured among individuals in the general population with brain sizes from 1100cc to 2200cc in modern man, per examples of Anatole France and Lord Byron.

The only correlation of bigger brain sizes in ASD's has been recorded among children with regressive autism, per abnormal brain growth associated with severely disabling symptoms of social communication. Other autistics measured are within normal variation of brain development, per overall brain size.

Neither greater skills in mathematics or higher levels of intelligence are associated with ASD's than per the general population. A stereotype that is propagated at times, but solidly refuted by statistics as they exist per ASD's. In fact symptoms of non-verbal learning disorder are common among individuals with Aspergers. Many individuals that have the condition of Aspergers have strong verbal abilities and difficulties with mathematics.

The author's presentation of the short story relies on cultural stereotypes to engage readers throughout the general population whose common understanding of aspergers is propagated through limited stereotypes presented in the general media, such as those that attempt to diagnosis and/or present individuals as such recognized in media, like Gates, Zuckerberg, and Sheldon and his friends from the Big Bang theory.

At this point in science1 to 6% archaic DNA in modern humans beings is meaningless per function whether it is 1 percent or 6 percent. That has nothing to do with political correctness. Science does not currently have the tools to determine functionality, if any, related to the percentages of archaic DNA measured in human beings.

RDOS has attempted to find a correlation with the percentages of archaic DNA estimated in the general population with the 23andme organization's estimates of archaic DNA and what he measures as neurodiversity traits in his Aspie Quiz and he reports he has found no correlation. That shouldn't be any big suprise, since there may never be any significant functionality, determined through science, associated with archaic DNA in modern human beings.

It is politically correct that autism spectrum disorders, as defined in modern culture, impair functionality in human beings per social/communication and RRB's that together, overall, limit human beings in everyday life functioning. Beyond these impairments and disorders are similar traits that move well out into the population that do no not normally result in significant overall impairments in life functioning.

Some of these folks are referred to as part of the broader autism phenotype, shy, introverts, research scientists, engineers, accountants, computer programmers, auto mechanics, Gates, Sheldon, Zuckerberg, the list goes on and on. For the most part these individuals generally have strong abilities in systemization. However, there are also individuals referred to as novelists, painters, and musicians that may not have notably strong systemization abilities.

It is neither politically correct to identify african americans or homosexuals as individuals that are inherently deviant per overall functionality in life, as that relates to skin color or sexual orientation. There is a spectrum of skin color in the human race, just as there is a spectrum of gender and sexual orientation that is neither fully white, black, masculine, feminine, gay or lesbian; the same as one finds in species in the rest of the animal kingdom.

Modern laws allow individuals the right to selective abortion. That has little to do with eugenics. A person with no determined genetic flaws is as likely or potentially more likely to engage in selective abortion as a person with determined genetic flaws. It is dependent on one's personal decisions that may have nothing to do with inherent traits.

While there are some for-profit organizations engaged in developing pre-natal and post-natal screening tests to estimate percentage chances of developing autism, there are no charitable organizations with the name autism in the organization attempting to develop a pre-natal genetic test for autism that some may use to make a decision on selective abortion.

However, that decision is already influenced through normal genetic counseling when there are close family members whom have the condition, particularly when one already has an autistic child, providing the statistical probabilities and even recommending that a male foetus potentially be aborted rather than a female foetus because of the greater odds that a male foetus will develop autism, if their is a determined family genetic propensity toward autism.

However this is not a form of organized forced Eugenics and is not worthy of comparison to the third reicht, it is up to the individual as to whatever a person's decision is regarding selective abortion; the state does not force it.

Population control is enforced in China, and males are preferred over females, both through legal abortion, illegal abortion, and even infanticide, but these practices, generally, are not of benefit in increasing the perceived genetic quality of the population, they relate instead to basic subsistence needs, and cultural preferences.

Both modern medicine and western societies provide the accommodations necessary for survival for those that are born with inherent disabilities and acquire them through life, for continued survival and the potential to reproduce.

In the natural world, in the animal kingdom, eugenics are practiced on a daily basis, per animals born disabled, instinctively for survival purposes, the same as was commonly practiced among human beings, before culture developed the potential of accommodations for survival.

Selective abortion provides a more humane process for this instinctive aspect of animal nature, but human beings take care of the disabled and disadvantaged better than any other species, because they have the tools for accommodation developed through collective intelligence to do so through culture.

It is extremely unlikely that a neanderthal child with a similiar form of regressive autism would have survived. We live far from any fourth reicht in modern culture, it is almost a polar opposite, that provides benefits for those both with genetic anomalies and developed disabilities to survive and even fulfill their potentials in life.

If an organization like Autism Speaks, finds the cause of abnormal brain growth in regressive autism, through research and a way to temper it or prevent it, it is a humane and civilized approach to provide a potential of fulfillment in life for those that might otherwise be severely disabled in life. Far from selective abortion, that provides no potential for life at all.

Failing societies/cultures are attempting to move away from accommodations that allow the disabled and disadvantaged to survive in society; but that is the natural ebb and flow of success or failure among human beings when they get together in large groups and attempt to provide a civilized way of life, dependent on a myriad of factors.

The third reicht was an example of the failing health of a culture/society, that the rest of humankind quickly extinguished. A global economy is making a civilized way of life more complicated, and more equitable across the globe. It is limited, though, by the individual weaknesses in cooperation, common among all human beings. Amplified per example of the failed third reicht.

Cultural developments have come a long way from our feral neanderthal ancestors in how we are able to accommodate each others weaknesses and disadvantages. Overall modern domesticated human beings, do a good job of it, through modern cultural accommodations, compared to the rest of the feral animal kingdom.



DemocraticSocialistHun
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02 Jun 2012, 4:40 pm

aghogday wrote:
The point on mathematics and intelligence was brought up in the short story, as positive correlates with Neanderthal DNA. Mathematics and the elements of traditional IQ tests that are measured are a result of culture, not inherent intelligence. The type of intelligence required to live in the wild, is not the same type of intelligence developed in modern western cultures that comes as a result of 12 to 18 years of formal education to learn cultural abtractions developed over thousands of years from recorded collective intelligence.


True.

aghogday wrote:
Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon man were feral humans beings. What we have now for the most part are domesticated human beings.


To the point of causing, or allowing others to cause problems -- blind obedience, etc.

aghogday wrote:
When animals, including human beings are domesticated bodies and heads become de-masculinized, and less robust. Bigger brains are required to control more robusts bodies. The size of a brain and the intelligence measured in standard IQ tests are not directly related to the size of one's brain. Genius has been measured among individuals in the general population with brain sizes from 1100cc to 2200cc in modern man, per examples of Anatole France and Lord Byron.


No doubt we do not need brains as large in order to have the same level of intelligence. Still, I think that in developing collective intelligence we've sacrificed too much individual intelligence.

aghogday wrote:
When Neither greater skills in mathematics or higher levels of intelligence are associated with ASD's than per the general population. A stereotype that is propagated at times, but solidly refuted by statistics as they exist per ASD's. In fact symptoms of non-verbal learning disorder are common among individuals with Aspergers. Many individuals that have the condition of Aspergers have strong verbal abilities and difficulties with mathematics.


The atypical intelligence of autistics is probably not sufficiently measured. Besides, real, practical creativity is autistic. Where do most inventions occur? By whom? In Africa and South Asia no doubt it is a rare event.

aghogday wrote:
Science does not currently have the tools to determine functionality, if any, related to the percentages of archaic DNA measured in human beings.


Very easy and expensive. Get random samples of say, 3,000 individuals and 3,000 inventors. Compare the levels of archaic DNA in the two groups. My guess is that you'll get a result you can't publish in peer review journals.

aghogday wrote:
RDOS has attempted to find a correlation with the percentages of archaic DNA estimated in the general population with the 23andme organization's estimates of archaic DNA and what he measures as neurodiversity traits in his Aspie Quiz and he reports he has found no correlation. That shouldn't be any big suprise, since there may never be any significant functionality, determined through science, associated with archaic DNA in modern human beings.


Not what I've heard -- that results are inconclusive. the 23andme test is not quite good enough.

aghogday wrote:
It is neither politically correct to identify african americans or homosexuals as individuals that are inherently deviant per overall functionality in life, as that relates to skin color or sexual orientation. There is a spectrum of skin color in the human race, just as there is a spectrum of gender and sexual orientation that is neither fully white, black, masculine, feminine, gay or lesbian; the same as one finds in species in the rest of the animal kingdom.


Depends on who you ask. Even in the federal government, probably even the current administration, racism as it is commonly misunderstood is alive and well. I've heard of a researcher employed by the Bush administration (don't know if he is still in the government) who believes Africans have genes for violence -- or something like that. Certainly the most if not all of the entire neurotypical population has genes for group-on-group violence, but that is another story.

aghogday wrote:
Modern laws allow individuals the right to selective abortion. That has little to do with eugenics. A person with no determined genetic flaws is as likely or potentially more likely to engage in selective abortion as a person with determined genetic flaws. It is dependent on one's personal decisions that may have nothing to do with inherent traits.


In Fourth Reich America there are plenty of people and organizations trying to change this -- like getting people on welfare on Depo-Provera for starters.

aghogday wrote:
However, that decision is already influenced through normal genetic counseling when there are close family members whom have the condition, particularly when one already has an autistic child, providing the statistical probabilities and even recommending that a male foetus potentially be aborted rather than a female foetus because of the greater odds that a male foetus will develop autism, if their is a determined family genetic propensity toward autism.


Race hygiene.

aghogday wrote:
However this is not a form of organized forced Eugenics and is not worthy of comparison to the third reicht


Wishful thinking that this time is different.

aghogday wrote:
it is up to the individual as to whatever a person's decision is regarding selective abortion; the state does not force it.


There will be plenty of pressure if there isn't already -- just a technicality.

aghogday wrote:
Population control is enforced in China, and males are preferred over females, both through legal abortion, illegal abortion, and even infanticide, but these practices, generally, are not of benefit in increasing the perceived genetic quality of the population, they relate instead to basic subsistence needs, and cultural preferences.


Population control can be corrupted.

aghogday wrote:
Both modern medicine and western societies provide the accommodations necessary for survival for those that are born with inherent disabilities and acquire them through life, for continued survival and the potential to reproduce.


Or pretend to.

aghogday wrote:
In the natural world, in the animal kingdom, eugenics are practiced on a daily basis, per animals born disabled, instinctively for survival purposes, the same as was commonly practiced among human beings, before culture developed the potential of accommodations for survival.

Selective abortion provides a more humane process for this instinctive aspect of animal nature, but human beings take care of the disabled and disadvantaged better than any other species, because they have the tools for accommodation developed through collective intelligence to do so through culture.


So we should let the politically powerful who have no idea how the other 99% lives play God?

aghogday wrote:
If an organization like Autism Speaks, finds the cause of abnormal brain growth in regressive autism, through research and a way to temper it or prevent it, it is a humane and civilized approach to provide a potential of fulfillment in life for those that might otherwise be severely disabled in life. Far from selective abortion, that provides no potential for life at all.


The humane approach is to find out how autistics learn and could perform tasks and reform the system so it works for everyone.

aghogday wrote:
A global economy is making a civilized way of life more complicated, and more equitable across the globe. It is limited, though, by the individual weaknesses in cooperation, common among all human beings. Amplified per example of the failed third reicht.


A global economy is making the entire world like corporatist 1930s Germany and 2010s America. It is easier to create a corporation that has a broken business model and use finance or government contracts and subsidies to loot and steal than to make honest money.

aghogday wrote:
Cultural developments have come a long way from our feral neanderthal ancestors in how we are able to accommodate each others weaknesses and disadvantages. Overall modern domesticated human beings, do a good job of it, through modern cultural accommodations, compared to the rest of the feral animal kingdom.


Not nearly good enough. We need to be better than feral animals. Feral animals do not have nuclear weapons.


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03 Jun 2012, 3:36 am

DemocraticSocialistHun wrote:
aghogday wrote:
The point on mathematics and intelligence was brought up in the short story, as positive correlates with Neanderthal DNA. Mathematics and the elements of traditional IQ tests that are measured are a result of culture, not inherent intelligence. The type of intelligence required to live in the wild, is not the same type of intelligence developed in modern western cultures that comes as a result of 12 to 18 years of formal education to learn cultural abtractions developed over thousands of years from recorded collective intelligence.


True.

aghogday wrote:
Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon man were feral humans beings. What we have now for the most part are domesticated human beings.


To the point of causing, or allowing others to cause problems -- blind obedience, etc.

aghogday wrote:
When animals, including human beings are domesticated bodies and heads become de-masculinized, and less robust. Bigger brains are required to control more robusts bodies. The size of a brain and the intelligence measured in standard IQ tests are not directly related to the size of one's brain. Genius has been measured among individuals in the general population with brain sizes from 1100cc to 2200cc in modern man, per examples of Anatole France and Lord Byron.


No doubt we do not need brains as large in order to have the same level of intelligence. Still, I think that in developing collective intelligence we've sacrificed too much individual intelligence.

aghogday wrote:
When Neither greater skills in mathematics or higher levels of intelligence are associated with ASD's than per the general population. A stereotype that is propagated at times, but solidly refuted by statistics as they exist per ASD's. In fact symptoms of non-verbal learning disorder are common among individuals with Aspergers. Many individuals that have the condition of Aspergers have strong verbal abilities and difficulties with mathematics.


The atypical intelligence of autistics is probably not sufficiently measured. Besides, real, practical creativity is autistic. Where do most inventions occur? By whom? In Africa and South Asia no doubt it is a rare event.

aghogday wrote:
Science does not currently have the tools to determine functionality, if any, related to the percentages of archaic DNA measured in human beings.


Very easy and expensive. Get random samples of say, 3,000 individuals and 3,000 inventors. Compare the levels of archaic DNA in the two groups. My guess is that you'll get a result you can't publish in peer review journals.

aghogday wrote:
RDOS has attempted to find a correlation with the percentages of archaic DNA estimated in the general population with the 23andme organization's estimates of archaic DNA and what he measures as neurodiversity traits in his Aspie Quiz and he reports he has found no correlation. That shouldn't be any big suprise, since there may never be any significant functionality, determined through science, associated with archaic DNA in modern human beings.


Not what I've heard -- that results are inconclusive. the 23andme test is not quite good enough.

aghogday wrote:
It is neither politically correct to identify african americans or homosexuals as individuals that are inherently deviant per overall functionality in life, as that relates to skin color or sexual orientation. There is a spectrum of skin color in the human race, just as there is a spectrum of gender and sexual orientation that is neither fully white, black, masculine, feminine, gay or lesbian; the same as one finds in species in the rest of the animal kingdom.


Depends on who you ask. Even in the federal government, probably even the current administration, racism as it is commonly misunderstood is alive and well. I've heard of a researcher employed by the Bush administration (don't know if he is still in the government) who believes Africans have genes for violence -- or something like that. Certainly the most if not all of the entire neurotypical population has genes for group-on-group violence, but that is another story.

aghogday wrote:
Modern laws allow individuals the right to selective abortion. That has little to do with eugenics. A person with no determined genetic flaws is as likely or potentially more likely to engage in selective abortion as a person with determined genetic flaws. It is dependent on one's personal decisions that may have nothing to do with inherent traits.


In Fourth Reich America there are plenty of people and organizations trying to change this -- like getting people on welfare on Depo-Provera for starters.

aghogday wrote:
However, that decision is already influenced through normal genetic counseling when there are close family members whom have the condition, particularly when one already has an autistic child, providing the statistical probabilities and even recommending that a male foetus potentially be aborted rather than a female foetus because of the greater odds that a male foetus will develop autism, if their is a determined family genetic propensity toward autism.


Race hygiene.

aghogday wrote:
However this is not a form of organized forced Eugenics and is not worthy of comparison to the third reicht


Wishful thinking that this time is different.

aghogday wrote:
it is up to the individual as to whatever a person's decision is regarding selective abortion; the state does not force it.


There will be plenty of pressure if there isn't already -- just a technicality.

aghogday wrote:
Population control is enforced in China, and males are preferred over females, both through legal abortion, illegal abortion, and even infanticide, but these practices, generally, are not of benefit in increasing the perceived genetic quality of the population, they relate instead to basic subsistence needs, and cultural preferences.


Population control can be corrupted.

aghogday wrote:
Both modern medicine and western societies provide the accommodations necessary for survival for those that are born with inherent disabilities and acquire them through life, for continued survival and the potential to reproduce.


Or pretend to.

aghogday wrote:
In the natural world, in the animal kingdom, eugenics are practiced on a daily basis, per animals born disabled, instinctively for survival purposes, the same as was commonly practiced among human beings, before culture developed the potential of accommodations for survival.

Selective abortion provides a more humane process for this instinctive aspect of animal nature, but human beings take care of the disabled and disadvantaged better than any other species, because they have the tools for accommodation developed through collective intelligence to do so through culture.


So we should let the politically powerful who have no idea how the other 99% lives play God?

aghogday wrote:
If an organization like Autism Speaks, finds the cause of abnormal brain growth in regressive autism, through research and a way to temper it or prevent it, it is a humane and civilized approach to provide a potential of fulfillment in life for those that might otherwise be severely disabled in life. Far from selective abortion, that provides no potential for life at all.


The humane approach is to find out how autistics learn and could perform tasks and reform the system so it works for everyone.

aghogday wrote:
A global economy is making a civilized way of life more complicated, and more equitable across the globe. It is limited, though, by the individual weaknesses in cooperation, common among all human beings. Amplified per example of the failed third reicht.


A global economy is making the entire world like corporatist 1930s Germany and 2010s America. It is easier to create a corporation that has a broken business model and use finance or government contracts and subsidies to loot and steal than to make honest money.

aghogday wrote:
Cultural developments have come a long way from our feral neanderthal ancestors in how we are able to accommodate each others weaknesses and disadvantages. Overall modern domesticated human beings, do a good job of it, through modern cultural accommodations, compared to the rest of the feral animal kingdom.


Not nearly good enough. We need to be better than feral animals. Feral animals do not have nuclear weapons.


Human beings for the most part depend on culture now, as domesticated animals, in a similiar manner as a domesticated cat depends on human culture for survival. For the most part, humans have lost the robust physical characteristics that allow a species to survive in the wild, as well as other domesticated animals.

I have a feral cat and a domesticated cat, living by one's wit, in a capricious world, is quite a bit different than living within a cultural structure. The feral cat can run circles around the domesticated cat per the type of intelligence required for survival. But he would not last long in compeitition with a species of wild cat that has no history of domestication.

This is the problem with attempting to suggest that the type of intelligence that archaic man had was inferior to modern domesticated man. And it is also the same problem in attempting to suggest that the type of creativity possessed by south asians and subsarahan africans who do not possess the same advantages of collective intelligence, are not capable of the same levels of innovation and/or creativity, because they may have different archaic ancestory.

One is not going to find as many cultural inventions, where there is not the same level of collective recorded intelligence, educational opportunities, and economic conditions for basic subsistence, nor are they going to find the same IQ from tests generated from other cultures with those advantages, even among ethnic populations that are economically disadvantaged, within developed countries, through a lower potential for financial inheritance and advantage.

However, modern humans across the globe adapt at similar levels of excellence when provided similar levels of advantage. We don't have a half Subsarahan President in the US, whose father graduated from Harvard as a full blooded Subsarahan African, because of a disadvantage in Subsarahan genetics; natural eugenics play a larger role in Subsarahan African countries where individuals face a much harsher environment for survival. One cannot discount the intelligence required for day to day innovation to survive when resources are scarce. It may not present groundbreaking inventions, but it results in the only result that counts in the long run, survival.

There really is no evidence of advantage of Cro-Magnon man over Neanderthal man, other than bodies adapted to different environments. But, it is a huge advantage if one can physically survive the environment ones body is more adapted to. Modern culture takes much of this element out of the equation with climate control, but it is still an evident issue, per environmental issues like skin cancer from exposure to the Sun, or resistance to weather conditions per temperature, humidity, and allergens.

There are people in environments where bodies are not adapted well, per inherent propensity toward pigmentation, levels of subcutaneous fat, a nose adapted for dry weather or humidity, a barrel chested individual adapted to lower levels of oxygen in higher altitude regions of the world, and many other inherent differences.

Human beings are evidenced as hard wired for verbal communication, but abstract forms of learning per collective intelligence of the last several thousand years, is considered a result of neuroplasticity. It is part of the reason that a Subsarahan African can achieve a Harvard degree, originated from a community that has little access to collective intelligence, as compared to developed countries. Collective intelligence is not measured as hardwired.

There is evidence that some diagnosed autistic individuals develop higher level of intelligence in non-verbal intelligence to compensate for weaknesses in other areas of intelligence, per the research of Michelle Dawson, in individuals with Autistic disorder, whom have low levels of verbal intelligence measured on Weschler tests of intelligence, as opposed to Raven Matrices tests of non-verbal fluid intelligence.

The same adaptations are not measured by that same researcher among indviduals with Apergers Syndrome whom have higher levels verbal intelligence measured in standard intelligence testing. In fact, the adult individuals with Autism Disorder actually scored slightly higher than a control group non-autistic individuals in raven matrices testing. Scores in fluid intelligence have been shown to increase through age and cultural adaptation; it is evident from this research that individuals with deficits in verbal intelligence compensate through non-verbal abstract reasoning as they move into adulthood.

Individuals with Aspergers, children and adults, whom had proportionately higher levels of verbal intelligence as opposed to lower performance intelligence per standard IQ tests, scored significantly lower than non-autistic control groups. A similar adaptation in non-verbal abstract reasoning was not seen in these individuals, compared to the group with autism disorder, in Dawson's research.

No doubt discrimination is alive and well; human beings discriminate based on physical characteristics on an instinctive level, per sexual preference and competition, as well as the rest of the animal kingdom. Sub-cultural norms enhances the issue of discrimination per every issue imaginable. But, it's not politically correct to discriminate where laws apply per sexual orientation, race, disability, national origin, or religion. People certainly don't always follow what is politically correct, though.

Blind obedience is an interesting and proper analogy to the affects of culture enhanced by domestication and reliance on culture. Human beings through cultural adaptations are moving further and further in the direction of a eusocial type hive.

Take the Hive away and bees instinctively will make a new hive within a relatively short period of time, but human beings depend on thousands of years of a type of collective intelligence that is not instinctive, for hive building for very advanced cultures, and would take a very long time to replace if significantly destroyed by natural or manmade disaster. Nuclear bombs are an unfortunate part and danger of that hive.

In living through a natural disaster, and watching the resulting chaos for a few weeks, modern human beings are not prepared for survival in small groups, as our prehistoric ancestors and some human beings still adapt for through a lifetime, without advanced culture.

Even a computer network outage can cripple the work of a large networked organization in seconds. Dependence and blind obedience to the hive continues to increase. Not bad for ants and bees, but fairly dangerous for human beings given the real potential for catastrophe, natural and manmade.

The increasing complexities in the human Hive presents advantages for those with social/communication difficulties that are new in culture. It's another of many accommodations provided for humans that would not likely survive, if left to their own own natural devices, in the wild among feral animals.

Practical creativity is required at the highest of levels for human beings not reliant on a human hive for survival.

It is the type of creativity one would find among our neanderthal ancestors or individuals in Subsarahan cultures that have very few resources for survival.

Without connection to the modern human hive, some modern human beings are paralyzed with fear, of what to do next. We have collective creativity, through the connection of intellectual resources and human connection, but individual creativity, and iniative can be compromised by adaptation to those advantages, in adapting to the simplest of activities such as patience and participation in low stimulus activities, that individuals have little problem with in cultures that do not rely on the type of hive that many humans have become reliant upon in developed countries.

Diagnosed autistic individuals are studied as not being more resilient to violent activity than non-autistic individuals. Several studies provide results that suggest while autistic individuals are more likely to be bullied, overall, autistic individuals are more likely to be engage in bullying activity, and at times do not perceive it as such, particularly those measured with ADHD symptoms. Some individuals diagnosed with autism are more than capable in size and strength to defend themselves against perceived or misperceived verbal assualts or attacks.

I do see where RDOS mentions in his latest blog on his website that he finds a small correlation of .12 in the neurodiversity traits he measures in his quiz and self reports from the 23andme estimation of archaic DNA. The 23andme is only a guestimate of archaic DNA, per reported ancestory, and results provided by samples of actual geographic testing, so it's not a very reliable indicator of actual archaic DNA per actual individual. If ancestory was not reported correctly, which certainly is possible, even unwittingly, with the potential for infidelity in any ancestoral line, the results are not very meaningful in trying to make any correlation of significance. I think, in part he acknowledges this.

The politically powerful do make decisions, that are not in favor of minority interests in the population. There are more advantages than ever for disabled and disadvantaged individuals in developed countries at present, but that is certainly subject to change at any moment with a dramatic change in environmental circumstances manmade, natural catastrophe, or in economic turmoil.

One could see a significant difference in how the urban population in New Orleans was treated differently than the population in Southern Florida and even Northwest Florida after Catastrophic disasters; similiar to what one sees in concern for third world natural disasters as compared to western developed countries with natural disasters.

We are all subject to and dwarfed by the influence of a hive regardless of neurotype, disability, disadvantage, or advantage, with the potential of a bear swatting at it at any moment. I never realized how a much a part I was of a hive, until going through two hurricanes, one a week long inconvenience without electricity, that made me understand the value of airconditioning and ice, and how dependent I was on TV for entertainment, and another much more serious hurricane that made it impossible to buy gas or groceries for an extended period of time, as well as damaging one bridge that made it impossible for thousands of people to get a route to their place of work.

Per your example of getting 3000 people from the population with inventions as opposed to 3000 people without inventions with individuals actually tested for archaic DNA, unlike what the 23andme guestimate does; too many factors come in to play as to whether or not an individual produces an invention in a lifetime, to relate it specifically to inherent ability/ genetics. There are no determined invention genes at this point in time; it could be a result of genetics, adversity, adaptation, or circumstance, as well as many other factors. There is no diagnosis for an inventor, only results per inventions. :)

There are very few individuals actually diagnosed with autism, that are noted for inventions. But, there are likely many individuals with autistic like traits in the general public, that hold patents.

That, in part, is an issue of a relatively small group of diagnosed autistics, as opposed to the rest of the general population. There is only a minority of the population that holds patents, scattered throughout the general population. There are noted inventors suspected of having autistic traits, but no real evidence that they would meet the criteria for an actual diagnosis, if they lived today; doesn't mean they don't have traits, just no proof that they would meet a definition of significant impairment in everyday life functioning per an actual diagnosis of a disorder.

Every ancestoral link is a necessary component of our existence as human beings, and at some point in the distant past there is the potential that a neanderthal ancestor could have played a role in our existence, so regardless of the significance of that genetic contribution as to how it might have influenced actual human traits, one can't downplay the importance of the neanderthal contribution to the overall potential of our existence, anymore than the rodent ancestor from 75 million years ago, or ones' great great grandfather.

That makes the Neanderthal contribution interesting enough for me, but cultural environment plays a role so huge, in changing the potential of a human being per evidence from our increasing hive like existence, just during the course of one lifetime, it's hard for me to give most of the credit for who I am to either the rodent, the neanderthal, or my great-great grandfather, except if any of those ancestoral links were broken, I would not exist.

I think it is safe to say that it is likely that neanderthals contribution to homo sapiens per physicality, was the ability to withstand a colder environment, through robust features. It only makes sense that those characteristics would continue in environments, in which they continued to play a role in survival to reproductive age. Northern Europe matches that continued environment, as well as geography per admixture. Not surprising that slightly higher concentrations of archaic neanderthal DNA have been measured there. The fact that it is measured at similar levels in south America shows how connected human beings are through world-wide migration.

I can't dismiss the potential that Neanderthals had some autistic like traits; after all those traits are measured as existing out into 30 percent of the population today, and similar traits exist in mice and monkeys, but it's not likely that serious rare anomalies in diagnosed autism like regressive autism existed as conditions that survived into reproductive age, without the type of support and accommodations provided in modern society. And it's not likely that many human beings that live today with or without a disorder, could have survived in a Neanderthal environment, toe to toe, among Neanderthals or Cro-Magnons. Particularly among those that have become dependent on the "hive" for survival, which is certainly not limited to individuals with regressive autism.

The fact that high levels of diagnosed autism are found in the children of Sub-Saharan indigenous Somalians, relocated and diagnosed in societies that have the ability to make the diagnosis, is conclusive enough evidence that the disorder of autism exists among individuals of Sub-Saharan African origin, measured and noted in general, for having low levels of archaic neanderthal DNA. Since mice and monkeys have not bred with neanderthals that should not be a surprise.

Autistic individuals cannot lay sole claim to neanderthal ancestoral heritage, that's been proven without a shadow of a doubt, as genetic samples of DNA have been provided worldwide and it has been suggested that close to 6 billion members of the human species have a significant amount of archaic Neanderthal DNA.

It will be interesting in the future, if scientists determine specific functions for any part of the archaic DNA per Neanderthal or Denisovan origin.



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03 Jun 2012, 6:48 am

aghogday wrote:
...And it is also the same problem in attempting to suggest that the type of creativity possessed by south asians and subsarahan africans who do not possess the same advantages of collective intelligence, are not capable of the same levels of innovation and/or creativity, because they may have different archaic ancestory.


South Asia and Sub-Sahara Africa (and the Middle East by the way) are overwhelmingly neurotypical. They have collective intelligence, but few if any members are autistic and possess substantial *individual* intelligence. At least south Asia tolerates neurodiversity to some extent. In the other two regions the intolerance is genecidal.

aghogday wrote:
One is not going to find as many cultural inventions, where there is not the same level of collective recorded intelligence


True. The neurodivergent do scientific inventions, not cultural ones. Too many neurodivergents is perhaps as bad as too few.

aghogday wrote:
educational opportunities, and economic conditions for basic subsistence, nor are they going to find the same IQ from tests generated from other cultures with those advantages, even among ethnic populations that are economically disadvantaged, within developed countries, through a lower potential for financial inheritance and advantage.


Also to be factored in is that "successful" cultures have a more substantial proportion of neurodivergents. The end result is that the disadvantaged populations have more admixture. This will affect IQ scores as well.

aghogday wrote:
However, modern humans across the globe adapt at similar levels of excellence when provided similar levels of advantage. We don't have a half Subsarahan President in the US, whose father graduated from Harvard as a full blooded Subsarahan African, because of a disadvantage in Subsarahan genetics; natural eugenics play a larger role in Subsarahan African countries where individuals face a much harsher environment for survival. One cannot discount the intelligence required for day to day innovation to survive when resources are scarce. It may not present groundbreaking inventions, but it results in the only result that counts in the long run, survival.


Most likely, Sub-Sarahan Africans are better at dealing with situations where advanced planning is impossible. In Sub-Sarahan Africa the rains come or it doesn't at random. If it wasn't for foreign medical aid the population would be lower and resources not so scare. If anything, life in Africa used to be quite easy in comparison ice-cold Europe.

Also, we have a half Subsarahan President when the system is essentially broken beyond repair. The more dysfunctional the system, the better Afro-Americans are doing. We are now out of balance in our neurotypicality vs neurodivergence mix. The policies of the powers-that-be is to make the situation worse.

aghogday wrote:
There are people in environments where bodies are not adapted well, per inherent propensity toward pigmentation, levels of subcutaneous fat, a nose adapted for dry weather or humidity, a barrel chested individual adapted to lower levels of oxygen in higher altitude regions of the world, and many other inherent differences.


Diabetes is the result of living in a year-round summer food supply-wise if you frugally store all your caloric intake.

aghogday wrote:
...Collective intelligence is not measured as hardwired.


But the ability to tap into it and spread it further in neurotypicals is.

aghogday wrote:
There is evidence that some diagnosed autistic individuals develop higher level of intelligence in non-verbal intelligence to compensate for weaknesses in other areas of intelligence...


More likely neurodivergents use innate ability to gain non-verbal intelligence to compensate, if they can.

aghogday wrote:
No doubt discrimination is alive and well; human beings discriminate based on physical characteristics on an instinctive level, per sexual preference and competition, as well as the rest of the animal kingdom. Sub-cultural norms enhances the issue of discrimination per every issue imaginable. But, it's not politically correct to discriminate where laws apply per sexual orientation, race, disability, national origin, or religion. People certainly don't always follow what is politically correct, though.


I am concerned more about organizational discrimination and parenting rather than individual discrimination.

aghogday wrote:
Practical creativity is required at the highest of levels for human beings not reliant on a human hive for survival.


Neurodivergents are hard-wired for this.

aghogday wrote:
It is the type of creativity one would find among our neanderthal ancestors or individuals in Subsarahan cultures that have very few resources for survival.


What matters is group size. Neanderthals would have it.

aghogday wrote:
I do see where RDOS mentions in his latest blog on his website that he finds a small correlation of .12 in the neurodiversity traits he measures in his quiz and self reports from the 23andme estimation of archaic DNA. The 23andme is only a guestimate of archaic DNA, per reported ancestory, and results provided by samples of actual geographic testing, so it's not a very reliable indicator of actual archaic DNA per actual individual. If ancestory was not reported correctly, which certainly is possible, even unwittingly, with the potential for infidelity in any ancestoral line, the results are not very meaningful in trying to make any correlation of significance. I think, in part he acknowledges this.


23andme only notices recent Neanderthal contributions to the genome. Although the overall correlation is small, it isn't even.

aghogday wrote:
The politically powerful do make decisions, that are not in favor of minority interests in the population. There are more advantages than ever for disabled and disadvantaged individuals in developed countries at present, but that is certainly subject to change at any moment with a dramatic change in environmental circumstances manmade, natural catastrophe, or in economic turmoil.


Government policy is designed to appear to be one thing while achieving the opposite. Neurodivergents are equal to neurotypicals in a way that makes them less equal because they don't meet the neurotypical gold standard. The economic turmoil is being deliberately created. The powers-that-be like to shock people with electricity and economic and financial state (includes corporate in my book) terrorism.

aghogday wrote:
We are all subject to and dwarfed by the influence of a hive regardless of neurotype, disability, disadvantage, or advantage, with the potential of a bear swatting at it at any moment. I never realized how a much a part I was of a hive, until going through two hurricanes, one a week long inconvenience without electricity, that made me understand the value of airconditioning and ice, and how dependent I was on TV for entertainment, and another much more serious hurricane that made it impossible to buy gas or groceries for an extended period of time, as well as damaging one bridge that made it impossible for thousands of people to get a route to their place of work.


Disasters are dealt with in a reactionary way.

aghogday wrote:
Per your example of getting 3000 people from the population with inventions as opposed to 3000 people without inventions with individuals actually tested for archaic DNA, unlike what the 23andme guestimate does; too many factors come in to play as to whether or not an individual produces an invention in a lifetime, to relate it specifically to inherent ability/ genetics. There are no determined invention genes at this point in time; it could be a result of genetics, adversity, adaptation, or circumstance, as well as many other factors. There is no diagnosis for an inventor, only results per inventions. :)


aghogday wrote:
I can't dismiss the potential that Neanderthals had some autistic like traits; after all those traits are measured as existing out into 30 percent of the population today, and similar traits exist in mice and monkeys, but it's not likely that serious rare anomalies in diagnosed autism like regressive autism existed as conditions that survived into reproductive age, without the type of support and accommodations provided in modern society. And it's not likely that many human beings that live today with or without a disorder, could have survived in a Neanderthal environment, toe to toe, among Neanderthals or Cro-Magnons. Particularly among those that have become dependent on the "hive" for survival, which is certainly not limited to individuals with regressive autism.


Even 1 in 166 is anything but rare. Autistic kids that have been found lost in the woods after being lost for days. They apparently got along much better than adults in "reality" tv shows. I'm not buying it. In the wild it is the neurotypicals that would be at a disadvantage unless they form a group in a savannah or meadow. Their senses are too dull for one thing.

aghogday wrote:
The fact that high levels of diagnosed autism are found in the children of Sub-Saharan indigenous Somalians, relocated and diagnosed in societies that have the ability to make the diagnosis, is conclusive enough evidence that the disorder of autism exists among individuals of Sub-Saharan African origin, measured and noted in general, for having low levels of archaic neanderthal DNA. Since mice and monkeys have not bred with neanderthals that should not be a surprise.


Most likely just abuse cases.

aghogday wrote:
Autistic individuals cannot lay sole claim to neanderthal ancestoral heritage, that's been proven without a shadow of a doubt, as genetic samples of DNA have been provided worldwide and it has been suggested that close to 6 billion members of the human species have a significant amount of archaic Neanderthal DNA.


The behavioral differences between most Caucasians and Asians vs Sub-Sahara Africans is relatively minor, if differences exist at all.


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