I interview Steve Silberman about his bestselling book, Neurotribes

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Norny
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29 Sep 2015, 11:00 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
You are to not in a position to decide how our generation should feel about bieng diagnosed uber late. From what I read here most of the it is only a gift aspie superpower stuff is coming from younger adults not our generation. I feel my autism shapes my personality in the same way you feel your gayness shapes yours. If you grew up when I did MAYBE you would look as bieng gay as an impairment. After all the DSM listed homosexuality as a pathology. Most people thought bieng gay meant you automatically tried to teach the "gay lifestyle" to young children.Gays were relentlessly bullied. I was bullied as a straight person because I did not have girlfriends and people thought I was gay. So on occasion did homosexuals who propositioned me. When I told them I was straight they started shaking begging me not to tell anyone. I have read people saying It is easier to fake straightness then to fake neurotypicality. It depends. Not so easy if you have an effeminate voice or butch appearance.


If somebody has been alienated etc. all their life that isn't a good thing. As an isolated event discovering a diagnosis and finally fitting in is great, but that's after a lifetime of what would have otherwise not been nearly as much suffering.

As I said I am gay and am fine with it at this point, but if I was born again I would want to be born straight - in that sense I do view it as an impairment. I would also want my kids to be straight. I wouldn't want to be born with autism or any other disorder and think that anybody who would want to must really have had a case that shouldn't actually be a diagnosis, but their traits. I have at times considered that maybe it is because of the stereotypes of NT people that exist here, that people think being NT would make them ugly, sociopathic, narcissistic etc.

For my friend and his parents autism is definitely not just a difference, so it greatly annoys me when people generalize it as been so. To reiterate what I wrote above in some people (and apparently most on this website), it is just a difference, but then how do you separate that from NT? If there is no impairment, what is the autism? My friend can't enjoy music as I do, can't view motion without his eyes hurting, and is unable to understand abstract concepts, including his own emotions. It makes him feel and interact as if he doesn't care, and yes, it bothers me too, knowing that if I were to disappear it wouldn't really affect him.

I find that there is little acceptance of support for anyone but the suffering autistic person on these forums. Vilifying society, friends and parents in favour of autism simply being a different that requires understanding isn't justifiable. Everybody supports the autistic person (and I can understand that), but only the autistic person a majority of the time, rather than it being a group struggle - and that makes sense, given the perception of autism as a difference rather than disability.

----------

WP is a support site, but I don't believe general discussion should mandate unrelenting support. That's why the haven and all those other sub-forums exist. If this is not how this website is meant to be, and it is truly dedicated to the black and white DIFFERENCE vs DISABILITY or ASD vs NT etc. then I shouldn't bother posting because there will only ever be 1 home team. I am against negativity more than blind optimism but I find they both frustratingly unrealistic most of the time.

I only wrote this paragraph in case my post is misinterpreted, not towards what I have quoted.


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btbnnyr
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29 Sep 2015, 12:20 pm

JMM71 wrote:
Interesting read. I'd like to suggest one correction however. In one part, it is stated "But I realized that I did not have to invest so much energy in what neurotypicals do all the time, which is what I would call reputation management. You walk into a room, you figure out who the powerful, cute, or cool people are and then you try to impress them; and neurotypicals put a lot of energy into that..." Actually that's what neurotypical EXTROVERTS do. As an NT Introvert, who is a also member of a few Introvert forums, I feel I can safely make the statement that "reputation management" as described is not something we Introverts think of doing when we walk in the room. We are usually wondering why we came to a place full of people we don't know or hoping we don't get stuck making small talk or wondering how long we have to stay before it wouldn't be considered rude to leave.


Yes, this seems correct based on my interactions with introverted people like NT introverts.
It is quite a range of social cognition abilities and social motivations in NTs.


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ASPartOfMe
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29 Sep 2015, 2:29 pm

I view my autism as part imparment(executive function), a lot of it as a disadvantage of bieng small minority(especially the social cues,body language type stuff), and some positive aspects. I really view disadvantaged and impairments as two very different things. The impairments is the autism or co morbid or executive functioning fault. Disadvantage is just the bad luck of bieng born with thinking and reacting differently to 98% of the population and is not my fault of often not the NT society fault.

We have a variety of people here from people who view it as a curse to supremecists. I can't say that others are wrong for vieing their autism as a curse because I have not lived their life. You and others should not tell me my judgement after 58 years of bieng autistic about my autism is wrong.


That said it is unfair and ultimately a failed strategy to expect autistics to try to and be as NT as possible all the time with no recriprication. It is ok to realize a lot of my problems are caused by bieng a minority'rather then broken

The book by the self decribed very neurotypical person is very sympathetic to parents. Parents are viewed as victims of lack of knowledge, overly simplistic explanations and quackery but not of autism per se. Silbermen is against most of the money bieng spent for cures and is for most of the money bieng spent to help autistics now living


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29 Sep 2015, 2:45 pm

Really interesting interview. Thanks. I have ordered up the book and can't wait to start reading it.



Norny
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29 Sep 2015, 10:01 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I view my autism as part imparment(executive function), a lot of it as a disadvantage of bieng small minority(especially the social cues,body language type stuff), and some positive aspects. I really view disadvantaged and impairments as two very different things. The impairments is the autism or co morbid or executive functioning fault. Disadvantage is just the bad luck of bieng born with thinking and reacting differently to 98% of the population and is not my fault of often not the NT society fault.

We have a variety of people here from people who view it as a curse to supremecists. I can't say that others are wrong for vieing their autism as a curse because I have not lived their life. You and others should not tell me my judgement after 58 years of bieng autistic about my autism is wrong.


That said it is unfair and ultimately a failed strategy to expect autistics to try to and be as NT as possible all the time with no recriprication. It is ok to realize a lot of my problems are caused by bieng a minority'rather then broken

The book by the self decribed very neurotypical person is very sympathetic to parents. Parents are viewed as victims of lack of knowledge, overly simplistic explanations and quackery but not of autism per se. Silbermen is against most of the money bieng spent for cures and is for most of the money bieng spent to help autistics now living


I didn't intend to dismiss your judgements, they're your own opinion and more importantly it's your own life. I just personally don't think that in general autism is just a difference in need of acceptance by society. I can see how greater acceptance is necessary though, being that curing the negative aspects of autism is likely to never happen.

Autism is the only mental disorder that I don't view as a complete curse, but my experience with my friend definitely leans me more towards the negative than the positive, and the nature of it being a diagnostic label generally means that it is.. well, negative. Without the diagnostic label then I can only see such people as human ('NTs') with non-significantly-impairing autistic traits.


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30 Sep 2015, 1:48 am

Norny wrote:
Waterfalls wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
Does the book have anything about non-Asperger-type + high-functioning autistic people?

What do you see as the difference?


I haven't read the book but I've read online that part of its message is to highlight that autism is a difference rather than a disability, and if it rarely talks about LFA, you've got bias there.

Personally I find it grating when people say that autism is not a disability, because there are so many simple things my friend cannot do and yes, he hates it. I understand that for many here autism is only a difference with a lack of acceptance being their main problem, but for people like my friend it downright sucks. His parents suffered too.

I love to express this view because I'm blasted for it and that feels engaging - I am for acceptance (especially personal), but to me autism as a whole is not desirable, just as ADHD, OCD, anxiety etc. are not. If I were to have a kid I'd want them to be as normal as possible so that they (and I) would live easier and happier lives. Why the f**k would I wish for them to suffer from sensory sensitivities, a lifetime struggle with social development, and a hefty percent chance for them to be born with intellectual disabilities? So they can join an online club and feel good about (often imaginary) positive symptoms that the rest of the population do not have? lol..

I accept the fact that I have tics, OCD, am gay and all, because they can't change. I don't accept the tics and OCD as positive things, because they are only ever irritating. Being gay feels positive to me because it shapes my personality and has no downside (literally, unlike autism) outside of societal acceptance, though I would choose to have been born straight if I could have. Autism largely seems impairing to me and the diagnosis requires that. As one ages I suppose it gets better but would it not be arguable that one is no longer autistic but BAP or even just wired differently? If the context of autism were not a medical diagnosis (completely hypothetical and impossible), how would it be differentiated from quirky NTs?

The way I see it, no impairment = no autism, just autistic traits. A person can feel more anxiety than the average person but not have a full blown anxiety disorder, and yes, they can improve with age/experience. Oh so many times have I experienced the wrath of those that feel they can relate to serious anxiety issues simply because they're afraid to stand up for a presentation or talk to girls or whatnot. Anxiety does not suddenly become a normal, happy thing, that's stupid and detracts from the negative (and BY FAR the most important) aspects of its nature.

Older adults that suffered alienation etc. when they were younger and finally found their group to fit in to is an overall positive thing? FFS give me a break. Yes it's great to finally identify with something and feel like you belong but even if people were accepting of autism that wouldn't mean that the lack of social skills and other issues would suddenly disappear. Imagine if you weren't born autistic, you wouldn't know this life and quite likely all the rejection, sensory issues and other pains that came along with it.

Back to my friend, he hates it. He HATES it. Sure, he has above average talent where math is concerned, but other than that he feels like an NT with issues and he seems that way to me too. IN OTHER WORDS, a HUMAN with issues. He had violent meltdowns, severe sensory issues as a child (some still persist), a massive resistance to change, AND COULD NOT SPEAK FOR 6 YEARS. but wow just a difference lol

hope that it's understandable why this makes me mad, I'm only a raving lunatic to some degree


1. If you actually read the freaking book instead of just reading what the internet says about it you would realize it addresses all your complaints. It does give significant coverage to LFA, but the main thing is that LFA vs HFA is false dichotomy, it's classified as a spectrum for a reason.
2. The neurodiversity movement doesn't say that autism is a difference rather than a disability, but rather uses the social model of disability, and arguing there is nothing wrong with being disabled. (Autism also isn't the only mental disorder with positive effects. Dyslexia is also associated with various strengths, as is ADHD and bipolar. Notice how no one is pushing for a cure for Dyslexia, and plenty of people are against treating ADHD and bipolar. Even depression can have positive effects.)
3. I'm sick and tired of NTs acting like they think they know what it's like to be autistic and want we want. I don't if your friend you talk about that we basically know nothing about doesn't like his autism, he's just one person. Many people hate their ethnicity. So what?


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30 Sep 2015, 4:29 pm

I have had significant disability issues all through my life.....issues as measured by the NT world.....which in my opinion are inferior arrangements that one would not find in an inclusive advanced civilisation.

The need to constantly prove oneself (in sport, as a man, as a maker of money....to the exclusion of all the potential we have as a conscious species) is not what I consider an achievement that is needed in a modern, secular society....all it brings is endless wars and pointless suffering.

Do I want to be particularly able to do these things? No. Do I want to be free to use the potential latent in my different consciousness? Yes.

Am I disabled? No. I am differently abled,



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30 Sep 2015, 4:41 pm

B19 wrote:
I knew it would not be long before the 'most vocal parent hogs' who have done their utmost to dominate the media narratives over time with their 'blackwashing' negative narrative of autism and autistic people in the Autism Speaks style attempted to shout down the counternarrative and attack Silberman's approach directly. This was as predictable as daffodils in Spring (which are very lovely here are the moment). So here is one of those predictable pieces by a Ms Lutz - note that she is affiliated with a foundation that has a vested interest in the disaster version narrative - preaching the traditional poor-me-saddled-with-pathetic-children jeremiad of such parents, trying to spread their infection to counter the 'antibiotic' of Silberman's observations:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in ... ing-autism

Oh how they must hate being confronted with the counterbalance.. it strikes at their very identity as martyrs. The percentages she cites sound unfounded in truth and fraudulent to me, part of the PR slurs that the Jeremiahs consistently disseminate.

Lutz is the author of a book advocating ECT as a cure for autistic children - as if she has discovered a miracle cure (on a par with MMS - another form or torture/punishment wrapped up in the guise of therapeutic treatment). She is an ardent self-justifier and self-promoter. The other side of ECT, as a 'barbarous practice' is discussed here:

https://intcamp.wordpress.com/ect-kids/


Here is an excellent response directly to this viewpoint by John Elder Robison:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/my-life-aspergers/201509/does-neurodiversity-whitewash-autism .


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30 Sep 2015, 5:37 pm

Thank you. It's so good I wish I had written it. It's exactly what needed to be said, concise, apposite, insightful and refusing to feed the myth-makers with anything but truth. Well done John, I hope you are reading this. I hope some of the jeremiad parents actually hear your message long enough to consider the wider and deeper reality of the spectrum, if even for a short while. I suspect though they will have the opposite reaction, ie become more determined to spread global slurs and misinformation (otherwise we might get uppity, without them to put us in our low place..)



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30 Sep 2015, 7:47 pm

There is a lot more to this clash of the spectrums than one would be led to believe. I have witnessed this gulf between the barbarian and new consciousness with incredulity and consider myself a stranger in a foreign backward culture.

There is no other explanation for the wilful destructiveness of the majority.



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30 Sep 2015, 8:04 pm

John Robison brings up mostly good points in his article.
The comments section is farked up though, the same old sniping ad nauseum ad vomitum.
Also, there are some general issues with the way that ND advocates write about autism when they often come up with their pet theories of autism and generalize whatever they think causes autism or applies to autism to the spectrum, and it makes them seem not that credible.


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30 Sep 2015, 9:58 pm

Ganondox wrote:
1. If you actually read the freaking book instead of just reading what the internet says about it you would realize it addresses all your complaints. It does give significant coverage to LFA, but the main thing is that LFA vs HFA is false dichotomy, it's classified as a spectrum for a reason.
2. The neurodiversity movement doesn't say that autism is a difference rather than a disability, but rather uses the social model of disability, and arguing there is nothing wrong with being disabled. (Autism also isn't the only mental disorder with positive effects. Dyslexia is also associated with various strengths, as is ADHD and bipolar. Notice how no one is pushing for a cure for Dyslexia, and plenty of people are against treating ADHD and bipolar. Even depression can have positive effects.)
3. I'm sick and tired of NTs acting like they think they know what it's like to be autistic and want we want. I don't if your friend you talk about that we basically know nothing about doesn't like his autism, he's just one person. Many people hate their ethnicity. So what?


1. Said I didn't read the book, response was in the context that if LFA were not covered
2. Not really relevant to the opinion I expressed, nor do I think a complete cure is necessary or possible. I guess though, that I do think there is something 'wrong' with being disabled. Crazy deaf people wanting their children to also be deaf comes to mind.
3. Because I was totally doing that rather than just expressing my POV LOL. 'White men can't have opinions on any issue of equality because they have no idea what it's like.' If you don't like my posts because I am an NT you don't have to read them, that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion.

There are many people with HFA that think autism is a gift, forgetting that it is a spectrum with a great many people (such as my friend and his family) that suffer towards the lower end. I view HFA in a generally positive way too, but I don't generalize autism as a good thing. Perhaps those that highlight the positives of disorders are eager to self-diagnose (and probably incorrectly so)? Who knows.

EDIT - Also, as you do not share my understanding of the spectrum branching off into NTness, I do have autistic traits. If I didn't I probably would have never joined this forum in the first place. If I were self-diagnosed you wouldn't really know the difference, and then my opinion wouldn't be an 'NT opinion'. So strange how a label always makes all the difference, hmm.


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30 Sep 2015, 10:57 pm

@ Norny

What has your skin colour got to do with your addled opinions, or are autistics now a distinct race....is that your inference....if so, it amply illustrates my point that everything with those of your mindset is reduced to bare tribalism.

The spectrum as you correctly point out covers a wide range of states and degrees of physical presentation, just as the NT spectrum covers a wide range of similar functions, or in my opinion, malfunctions. Clearly in your world view being narrowly tribal as it is, bundling and grouping comes easy to the point where we are left with a core group of psychopaths in charge and that this the problem. The labelling and its resultant effects on all our lives, BY THIS GROUP. Ideally, we would rather negotiate our way out of this impasse than endure it a moment longer.



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30 Sep 2015, 11:37 pm

trayder wrote:
@ Norny

What has your skin colour got to do with your addled opinions, or are autistics now a distinct race....is that your inference....if so, it amply illustrates my point that everything with those of your mindset is reduced to bare tribalism.

The spectrum as you correctly point out covers a wide range of states and degrees of physical presentation, just as the NT spectrum covers a wide range of similar functions, or in my opinion, malfunctions. Clearly in your world view being narrowly tribal as it is, bundling and grouping comes easy to the point where we are left with a core group of psychopaths in charge and that this the problem. The labelling and its resultant effects on all our lives, BY THIS GROUP. Ideally, we would rather negotiate our way out of this impasse than endure it a moment longer.


Image

My world view? Narrow? Because you see a few words you disagree with? :jester:

TFW should've used a sith meme because your rage is clearly flowing.


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30 Sep 2015, 11:41 pm

@ Norny

No. Because you are a social primitive and a flawed one and yet you presume to tell me you know or understand the core issues from this clearly half arsed world view.



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30 Sep 2015, 11:44 pm

trayder wrote:
@ Norny

No. Because you are a social primitive and a flawed one and yet you presume to tell me you know or understand the core issues from this clearly half arsed world view.


LOL

didn't realize I signed up on 4chan


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