NTs Keep Score

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I'm reading an interesting book called "Asperger Syndrome and Long-Term Relationships," by an NT who is married to an Aspie and understands - for a change. In one chapter, she compares her assumptions to how her aspie husband thinks:

Here were my assumptions:

My husband is angry with me over certain things, just like I am angry with him over certains things.

My husband sees and feels the emotional iceberg between us.

If I am too nice to my husband, he will see it as a weakness and be even more mean.

Here's what I found:

Just because I have an emotion doesn't mean he will respond in kind - he does not engage in this level of emotional reciprocity. Also, he is rarely angry about anything. Anger is a rare emotion for him. I have misinterpreted his quietness for a cold shoulder when it really was quietness.

My husband doesn't know what an emotional iceberg looks like. I am the only one who can see the icebergs and the cold shoulders.

My husband doesn't intend to inflict hurt. He just doesn't think in terms of reciprocity in the way I do. He relishes all the nice things we do together and isn't keeping score like I am.

It takes a lot of introspective work to figure out these matters. We have different neurological wiring; different operating systems run in our brains. With a little trouble-shooting, a lot of patience, and an awareness how we are programmed differently, we can begin to decode each other and write our own personal user manuals. Maybe someday we'll even have tech support (couples counseling).

Listen up, NTs: Everything you assume about aspies is probably wrong and that includes the NT parents of aspies. You need to learn how to speak Aspergese: we can only meet you halfway. And it is gut-wrenchingly hard to do even that!

Aspies, this is a monumental problem for us. They are keeping a tit-for-tat score so I suppose we need to walk around with notebooks and PDAs and try to keep a tally. I sort of do this mentally because I know from hard experience that is the way the NT world operates.

How in the world can we ever come to some understanding when they are just as mind-blind to us as we are to them?

You can't. You can only tell them your brain is different and simply doesn't register certain things (for whatever reason, our messaging isn't making it). It's the same problem but has different manifestations in each of like bad wiring in a house. It's a simple concept and anyone can understand it, they just have to leave their emotions at the door. The brain is a lump of grey matter and has no emotions. It doesn't care if someone interprets the lack of messaging as a "cold shoulder" or "stubbornness" or whatever. It's going to continue to operate as it operates. Wishing it will change won't make it so. As the Southerners say, "Wishin' ain't gettin'." If you want to understand your Aspie kid, spouse, parent, co-worker, etc. forget the psychobabble BS and learn about the brain. Most of all, leave your emotions in a box and learn with your mind. You will experience much less frustration and make progress much faster.


They used to get angry and beat people who were deaf and dumb as well. Now they realize just how useless that was. So we can all go down that old road together or just make the logical choice and get off it. It goes no where.

I completely see your point! I am always saying to people that NTs need to meet us half way. Both NTs and Aspies need to learn ways to understand each other - it is unfair and unreasonable to put the entire burden on us.

I think the problem is that because AS is considered to be a 'disorder' rather than a personality type, the onus is put on us by NTs to struggle to make ourselves understood.

NTs think they they are 'right' and that they are what humanity should be, and therefore aspies are 'wrong' and need to be corrected.

Accepting us as people in our own right would mean them having to admit that they are not 'perfect' and also they would have to be more aware of their faults because we would be their equals and they would see that there are certain things that we are better at than them.

I think that NTs simply don't want to fall off their pedestal. They want to continue to think that they are the zenith of nature's creation and the only way to keep that idea alive is to make anyone who is 'different' feel that they are inferior. It also ties in with the need that NTs have to form 'groups' or 'tribes'. The rule is 'either be one of us or be persecuted'.

Accepting us as equals is too much for their pride to take. I also think they feel threatened by that which is 'different' especially if we can be different and still be nice, moral and intelligent people!

As far as partnerships go, you are supposed to trust each other. that is an intrisic element of marriage. If you don't trust, the relationship is basically meaningless. That said, anybody should go into a relationship being as honest as possible and as explicit as you can be when describing your experience. My husband and I didn't know anything about Autism or Asperger's when we met, but we were very frank about how we felt and believed about life and ourselves. Dating should be a time of deciding how you are going to live and if the other person fits into that life.
I think all failed relationships are results of people never letting their guard down during the dating/engagement process. They maintain some facade and then are surprised when they discover the reality. This includes both people who are fakes and people who are codependent or enablers, believing they can change someone else to fit their fantasies.

When reading those accounts at FAAAS or some other sites for spouses of Aspies, I see this very pattern coming out. Women who are surprised then angered that their husbands are wired differently. They'll never change. Questions arise throughout these anecdotes and forum topics; What did they think they were marrying? How did they meet? How long were things good?
I have seen people get really vengeful and forgetful when not only do relationships fail but they produce disabled offspring. For instance, I have never heard of someone say, "My child is bi-polar, I didn't realize that's what grandpa suffered from".
Instead, "My child is bi-polar, I'm pretty sure my soon-to-be-ex is too!" "She must have got it from my in-laws!"

Looking back at my marriage and subsequent relationship (10 years last week!) I sometimes think, "Well, it makes sense. It wasn't an accident we got together. My son isn't a mistake, he's exactly right." Sometimes, I do think, "whew, thank the gods I found one!" but it's because we laid our cards on the table and didn't have any allusions. (well, okay, I had some allusions )

One of the biggest problems I had with my ex is that she never "got" that I didn't express emotions the same way she did. She expected when things were bad for me to be frantic and expressive like she was, and when I calmly and matter-of-factly took things as they came, she thought I didn't really care about what was happening. She definitely kept score; she would get mad at things I'd do and be like, "thats exactly the same thing you did twelve years ago on this date..." and I'd be like, "huh?" And she always assumed my inability to react toward her the same way was intentionally meant to be hurtful toward her. She'd always say, "you do the same things over and over and over... how can it not be intentional?"

this conclusion struck me... as it is something that i've noticed in myself, as i have been in nothing but long term relationships (that or alone... wtf is dating? lol)... and i've never understood why i am like that... cause i know that nice is a good trait in a guy... and having the guy be nice didn't really seem to play a role in my relationships unless i was being stubborn over something... which lead to a fight or disagreement. i 'd say that's the only time it mattered, cause contrary to popular belief... girls like nice guys (well at least me, anyway... maybe cause they're more apt to just leave me be most times with minimal complaining?)... but i would say that specifically "fighting" has been why i've left most my past relationships... not the fact that we would fight... but that it never seemed productive... and i always tended to blame them for it... but now i know about AS ect... i see more clearly how i was more involved in the problems.

for an example:

my last 2yr relationship about a yr ago... when we'd fight... if it was something HE was angry over... he'd try to argue verbally, which he was good at and i was not... and he never seemed to pick up on that (i sucked at this) and he never tried to at least see my vantage point on anything... so we would argue until i stormed off cause he would never draw any quarter... or did so rarely.

if it was something that I was angry over... he never seemed to understand my explanations (my arguments) and very quickly just resorted to crying... as opposed to at least keeping the arguments going. it got to the point where he never tried anymore and just cried at the drop of my emotional hat... i'm not sure if at these times i was having a tantrum... as i felt very justified over anything that would upset me... though i'm sure he must have thought differently... i guess i just never picked up on that he WAS ABOUT TO cry... he just always seemed to do it...

but that just made me crazy... i never knew what to do with him crying... and it had nothing to do with masculinity issues... i just couldn't deal and would literally run away out of the house just so i didn't have to hear him cry... i think that really bothered me cause i noticed that even if i didn't leave... i remained angry at him even when he was crying and i knew something was wrong about that... though i never knew what it was...

and that's why i left him; mainly cause i felt wrong for being mad at him even when i knew he was trying to understand why i was upset.. it was very conflicting and hard to live with myself feeling this way... on some level, i knew that this was wrong for me to feel this way but when i looked deep down inside of myself; i was still extremely angry at him...

i didn't know about AS or anything... i just felt like a crazy biatch. and i sometimes wonder if i would have done anything differently had i known... not that i would get back into that situation, though.

The book quote reminded me a little of something you might read in "Men are from Mars"...I havent read it but have heard the writer talking about it on "news" interviews,and that seemed like the basic premis.....I know this feeds into the whole "male brain" theory and I dont want to start that debate here.Just wanted to mention,that it seems that it might be easier for an AS female to be with a male...NT or AS,then an NT female.I would be interested in reading a book by an AS female in an NT relationship and seeing if the same issues occur,as the above mentioned.

I had disagreements in relationships and my own personal insecurities....never could tell or really believed that the person loved me,(I think more to do with being abandoned young then AS),but there were few heated arguements,drama scenes.If the person cheated on me,slapped me or I just grew bored...I left.They never saw it coming.I always felt I responded(even in sex)more like a male then a female.

hmm.....'tit for tat' ?

oh, that is a neat way of disrespecting other peoples priorities/feelings. i definately express my feelings and priorities in a matter of fact way and sometimes that results in my not being taken seriously. i know for a fact that certain ex-bfs have discounted my feelings just because what i say, i don't say with the right emphasis. nothing 'petty' on my mimd whatso ever!

blargh!

Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus... Aspies are from Pluto?

Yes, NTs play a different game than we do - it's like chess & checker pieces trying to deal with each other.

It sounds like a good book - who is the author?

AC

So we're not even from a planet, then?

In all seriousness though, it is sometimes hard to convince NTs that our brains really are different; they say we have trouble with theory of mind but then why do they have such a hard time realizing that someone can think differently than they do? The only way I can get it across to them is by using metaphors of being from another culture, species, or planet.

This is the best analogy I've come up with for explaining to NTs that my brain TRULY is different from theirs: "Imagine that you are a dog, and I am a cat. When you swish your tail it means you're happy, so if I swish mine, you might be tempted to think it means I'm happy too. But since I'm a cat, it means something completely different, and it would be a mistake to approach me with this assumption that I am happy. Much the same way, it would be a mistake if I approached you thinking that the low rumbling noise coming from your throat meant you were content!"

I always tell them it is like a house with bad wiring. In some outlets the lights work fine, in others they flicker and in still others no light comes on at all. They seem to do fine with that. I don't get into Theory of Mind because it's too obscure for them. I mean shrinks have a hard time understanding that and you want someone you casually know or know well to figure it out? It probably makes them more confused. I've had NTs try to tell me what they think it is and it just confuses them more. The electricity analogy is easy and they get it because bad wiring can cause all kinds of different issues. That accounts for all of the why can you do this but not that questions. I don't seem to have things come and go. Whatever is working works consistently and what doesn't, never works. At least they can observe that and see for themselves it isn't just toward them.

Besides, with me, everyone says something long before they know what to call it. Yesterday I heard it again. Sometimes you are so engaged and other times, I tell you something thinking I know how you are going to respond and I get no feedback at all. And this particular person I work very well with but of course she was confused by it. She didn't think it was deliberate, but she had no idea what was going on. I just told her my usual line. "I don't get implied meanings. You have to just say it. Unfortunately, yes I am that dense." She was fine with that (although a bit perplexed at how that happened) and went on to explain it explicitly. I guess she figured because we've always worked so well together that it wasn't deliberate. I'm not sure. People do generally seem to handle it when I tell them things like that though.

I would never tell them it was a personality type. You can learn the other personality traits and practice them well enough to communicate. That's not the same as you can't even read their eyes or pick up on their implied meanings or broad explanations. That isn't a personality issue, that's your brain not recognizing what they are trying to tell you. Saying personality will only make them more angry. They'll think you can read some of it if you try.

The main problem with Aspie men is that they don't understand one simple fact...

Other people matter.

Perhaps they don't matter to you on an emotional level. However, you can bet your bottom dollar that they matter to themselves, and you'd damned well better learn to manipulate that to your advantage if you want access to the good things in life.

Last edited by Hazelwudi on 12 Apr 2007, 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rather basic Aspie question, which is relevant to this... Sorry, not knowing any other Aspies in Real Life, I've never really seen NT/AS interactions other than my own and would appreciate your thoughts.

We have trouble reading people's emotions, thoughts etc. Do NT people have as much trouble reading us?

Reading the quote from the author talking about her husband made me wonder about this, because I would have thought that an NT person, with more instinctive people-reading skills, would have been able to tell quietness from anger in the first place.

And if NT people have as much trouble reading us as we have with them... is that because Aspies unintentionally put out the wrong 'vibe' about how they're feeling, ie giving out signs of anger when it's really tiredness or sadness?

NT people subconciously look for clues they see in other NTs. Since it's not concious on their part, they really aren't aware of it and they really think all people have it. It's not something they learned like book learning, it's something their brain sees in the way others react. One of the theories now is that our brains don't do that and whether you believe that theory, most of us to some extent don't pick up on that. The clues are there, but we can't see them (not we don't want to see them). An NT would have no way to know that you couldn't see it because they don't even know how they learned it. It would be like them being hit with the little rubber mallet on their knee and having a reaction and you not. They would just assume everyone's knee jerked when that happened because they don't think about doing that in response, it just happens. So until they either learn that Aspies and Auties are different or they see it and it's explained to them correctly, the misperceptions will continue. You can't expect people to know these things without the knowledge. Right now they get such a hacked up mess of an explanation thrown at them, it's not surprising what happens next.