AHHH! The madness of it all!

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Gillberg's

Down the page a little; this is what Attwood and his crew use to diagnose AS, if you objectively meet such criteria; there you go. (They kind of neglected criteria #6 in my case, they like to fudge AS/HFA into one there.) If your fingers were bleeding, you rarely made eye contact (you need not stare at the ground the whole time) and said expert said the "screwed up" line, I'd say it's wise to seek another opinion if it truly affects your life and it's in your family (as AC said, a lot of experts don't really care if you've failed at relationships your whole life, only if you can work, it's not "good" or "bad", it's just what some focus on). Whatever it is that affects your life, it's good to know what it is, whether it's AS or some other mental disorder.

He said you have mild-AS that doesn't warrant a diagnosis in his opinion, his; which could be right or not. I suppose you could save up for a plane trip here (Brisbane), and see Attwood or someone else at M&H for a diagnosis from the "experts". They'll happily take your money for such (it'd cost far less than the $4000 you've spent already).

Thanks for posting the article on females with AS; it seems to be more for children, rather than adults, but I assume the effects of childhood will transpose over to adulthood. However, females can be bullied just as much as males the older they get, so their "peer" help doesn't have to be there. It's one way for trying to explain why autism is so prevalent in males than females; the male brain theory is another.

I'm not convinced that there are differing numbers of males and females with Asperger Syndrome. From observation, I'd venture to say it's about the same, but it "looks" different. Attwood admits that not much research has ever been done into female asperger traits, though he hopes they will some day. Meantime, I'd say they're failing the females with Asperger Syndrome who find ways to cope somehow and never realise why life is this huge and exhausting social struggle or why their interests/abilities/obsessions are so very different to other people's.

I think society likes to diagnose things that it cannot cope with. I suspect
people have historically only got a diagnosis because their behaviour was very extreme, so in the diagnostic books that became the "norm", and the psychologists assumed that if it doesn't look like this most extreme antisocial/odd behaviour, it's not AS.

I'm guessing also that because diagnosis may mean disability benefits or some other "cost" to society, there's sometimes pressure on them not to offer a diagnosis unless they think the person cannot work because of it.

Female AS is often different. The questions for men that help diagnose it are not set up to reflect female lifestyles and experiences. Many such women are absolutely obsessional about housework, for example, but there's almost never a question about it. Many wouldn't recognise that they collect things because they tend to think of collections as being things like stamps or coins or pictures of trains, but they do - they perhaps collect jewellery or buttons or tea towels or socks or ornaments or teddy bears.

Many have exercise obsessions or diet obsessions, but those are seen as "normal" judging from the women's magazines (strange things, women's magazines...). Somehow I think women are more "expected" to keep clean tidy houses, be obsessed with diets etc. They're also more often 'expected' to do very boring routine low paid jobs all their lives, (think shelf stacking, checkout operator, typist, housewife). AS therefore perhaps 'looks' like how women are 'expected' to live their lives, on some level. Who'd ever wonder if there was another pontential reason for their behaviour?

Featherways,

It doesn't really matter what your narrow/focused interest is; it can be anything that's intense in focus that makes you exclude other activities, you excel in it but at the expense of all others [to some extent], the severity of which defines how bad you're concerning this facet. It's there in all the diagnostic manuals.

Concerning socialization, it's all social difficulty no matter what you do and who you socialize with.

I saw a young woman with AS in Attwood's (twenties or so), she was there with her mother, naturally; she stared at the ground the whole time and never spoke above a whisper--exactly like me and how I interacted with my mother. It's as if we both weren't there at all in our mannerisms. She looked just the same as the young males I see there (who're with their parents), who look like me too.

I don't see many girls there (I haven't seen one), plenty of boys; I don't see why girls would have it different than boys in their all encompassing interests and difficulty in interacting socially. Attwood says that boys are more aggressive, perhaps; I never was, but my "normal" sister is.

funny..I have known some very outgoing (yes..diagnosed)...aspies...they just had no clue of boundaries...

provided that I AM...AS...
I can be very social and outgoing, but only in the narrow context of hosting people at my venue...where I have to be.
I can be a very gracious hostess with the patrons and the band members (i generously rattle off random information about every detail of my place that they happen to be examining at the time)......and will spare no expense with the hospitality....as long as they are friendly towards me...but if they cross that line,-------then I can freeze up and um...seek avoidance...neighbors who I dislike, but who have made themselves too familiar....or regular guests who sorta rub me the wrong way or invade my personal space...I totally can't do it.

When I get in that social and outgoing mode..it is like i can't stop....i am sure I can be very overbearing at times when I get into that gregarous state of mind.
I can't turn off...my voice is higher pitched and loud..I am overstimulated and all over the place...
but sorta totally "seperate" from the people I am interracting with...

I am sorry for straying from the subject....
I can identify with the original topic.
I had this problem when I first went in for ADD diagnosis..
It was something I had been anticipating for so many years
The Adult ADD Clinic was very expensive and would not accept insurance...
The doctor seemed cold and unfriendly (and quite frankly on meds himself..glazed over..)....and tried to trick me into lying...and I fell for the trick because I was so nervous..I had said I had used alot of natural remedies to help with ADD...and he asked me if Milk Thistle was one of a the herbs that I used...and I said yes because I have used milk thistle before...it is in the rockstar energy drink for one thing....but that was a trick..because that is not what milk thistle is used for...it is used as as a liver detoxifier...and I knew that after I said it...but I could not go back and correct myself....so that seemed like some sort of test of his that i had failed..and it totally haunted me

Anywhoo...he said that he sometimes gave a diagnosis after the first office visit, but it was his opinion that I would need a huge battery of prohibitively expensive tests..and have all my friends and family fill out these extremely long questionairres about me...and so on....and it was too expensive for me to continue with...but I was filling out the questionairres anyway...like...500 multiple choice questions..many repeated over and over in different words...and writing an angry letterr to the doctor on the back...when I happened to meet a registered nurse who said that the ADD doctor was only in it for the money and I did not need to go through all that for a diagnosis..that a general practicioner was qualified....
i could continue...just wanted to say that I understand your frustration...

I still do not have any thorogh diagnosis..the MD the nurse took me to asked me some brief questions..and said it was in his opinion that I had ADD and that we could give the ADD meds a try and monitored me over the months with gradually increased dosages...along with buspar for my anxiety....

but I have said enough...I eventually had a negative reaction to the meds...stopped taking them...back at square one...sorry for the long post.

If only the ADD clinic had accepted insurance...if only the people there had been nicer....
blah blah blah....

Yup. The extroverted personality type attached to AS, I know one too--he still had/has immense difficulties in life, whether with work, school and relationships.

(He's my father.)

poopylungstuffing,
the ALFH [aspie lady from hell] who lives here,is like that but on an extreme level,she is extremely sociable,starts causing trouble if there's no humans talking to her and she's only ever not talking [usually asking how the person is,and about babies or college-her obsessions] when she's got her mouth full of food or her own s*t [another attention seeking thing].

what was so bad to him about taking milk thistle?

milkthistle is not used for ADD...and he was asking about the supplements I had been specificly using to control my symptoms....so it made it see to him as though I had been lying...or so it seemed at the time....it affected the atmosphere of our interview in a seemingly negative way...
Despite my heartfeltness..he seemed skeptical of me...added more fuel to the fire of the hoops that i would need to jump through to get any sort of answer about my issues....

I paid all this money for this lengthy interview..and he wouldn't tell me anything

It could have all been a misinterpretation..but that is the way it strongly felt at the time.

i can only compare the experience to the point in a job interview when the interviewee decides you are an unemployable basketcase...and the atmosphere of the interview changes....cause they wanna get it over with...

...if that makes sense...

Hmm, I went through those GILLBERG'S CRITERIA for myself:

-Severe impairment in reciprocal social interaction
(at least two of the following)

I guess I qualify for this one. Although it's more like mild versions of a lot of them. I don't have an "inability" to interact with peers, (that would be impossible actually...) I'm just not good at it. I have SOME desire, but not as much as normal. And I *think* i somewhat lack "appreciation of social cues".

-All-absorbing narrow interest

Not sure if I qualify for this one. I definitely have specific interests, but they're NOT more "rote than meaning" at all, and I'm not sure if they're to the exclusion of other things, because they're what I want to do... Not sure if my interests are "narrow" either.

-Imposition of routines and interests

I guess I do this on myself....I'm not even 100% sure. Some of my OCD stuff would probably fall into this category too (and THAT I sort of inadvertently impose on others...).

Speech and language problems
(at least three of the following)

* (a) delayed development
* (b) superficially perfect expressive language
* (c) formal, pedantic language
* (d) odd prosody, peculiar voice characteristics
* (e) impairment of comprehension including misinterpretations of literal/implied meanings

Nope nope nope. I didn't have delayed language (although I guess I didn't talk much until I was 3). I don't know what (b) even means. I don't have c or d at all, and e isn't much of an issue either (my coworkers used to kind of make fun of me because I'd take stuff they said seriously/literally, but in general that's not an issue).

-Non-verbal communication problems
(at least one of the following)

* (a) limited use of gestures
* (b) clumsy/gauche body language
* (c) limited facial expression
* (d) inappropriate expression
* (e) peculiar, stiff gaze

Nope nope nope. I wave my hands around all the time when I'm talking. I don't have limited facial expressions or peculiar gazes or anything like that.

-Motor clumsiness
Nope. I'm average for this I think.

So...according to that I can't have Asperger's. So in that case, what the heck is wrong with me?

I would have thought this to be true, but in my particular case, this Dr. didn't feel my interest in psychology, mental health, people, researching, asperger's, anxiety, arts, writing etc were sufficient or characteristic of AS. I am grossly involved in most of these activities, to the point of it effecting both my home, personal, work and social interests. They are central of all of my thoughts and I know that they should have been considered, but he dismissed them.

However, my daughter's interests are fairies, money, food, arts etc and the Dr that assessed her had absolutely no problem seeing that it was characteristic of AS

This is very true of me. I appear quite wild and out of control, really, but am able to engage with the people I keep...as they are just as socially inept.



This describes me quite well. I am capable of interacting socially, but it is quite removed from the point of view of engaging with. I am all over the map, I talk intensely about things that interest me, that we have been doing, that we have plans for, but do not really care to get into very much with others unless it catches me...

I have had people 'round and hosted gatherings, but these cause a great deal of stress and overstimulation and I usually make myself physically ill and feel rather disconnected from the company unless I am able to relax enough to have a few drinks, at which point, I let loose.

Social is done on my own terms. Unexpected calls, visitors, events, etc simply don't fly with me. I avoid all of these things and have been known to refuse visitors at the door (which thinking back probably made people question my sanity), but if I wasn't ready for it, it wouldn't work.

For the past couple of years I have completely removed myself from anyone I know and avoid everything. It is bloody madness sometimes, really, as I know people no longer care to make efforts to reach out, but I have been successful at using my children as the excuse.

I have random calls to check in on me, which usually lands them at a message machine or my partner intercepting the call and making some idiotic excuse for my absence.

My colleagues know all about my oddities, but really are not interested in accommodating for them, mostly. I have been called up for any number of things including avoidance of telephone calls and face to face (when dealing with conflict). I used to get in crap all the time about the way I appeared to be "wearing my emotions on my sleeve", which they have said appears quite cool and reserved (obvious issue working in a health centre), but had little to do with emotions and more to do with making observations, lack of eye contact and my tone issues. I have spent years debriefing with a very patient supervisor that coached me through practicing my tone of voice and now have it down to an ability to fake my tone to appear more pleasant, welcoming and interested. I have spent many years (since I began at this place of employment nearly 7 years ago) practicing and following the advice of this supervisor. She always reminded me that when working with people in this sort of setting, much of what was required of us was "acting".

So, that said, I am quite capable of manipulating situations now, I suppose. Each times I am written up for some sort of nonsense, I am sure to come up some fantastic excuse for the behaviour and downplay the complaints by explaining that people simply do not like that I am removed from the social gossip network here and have nothing better to than to pick. My social inadequacies are far less important these days, as I have accepted an administrative position which keeps me from having to interact with clients as much as before and the direct colleagues are much more lenient and understanding.




I too am at the point of writing an angry letter, but in the grand scheme of things will I ever really benefit from having wasted my time doing this? I don't know...My cousin and the advocate we work with for my daughters school BS suggested I write a formal complaint to the COllege of Physicians and Surgeons, but then does it become a question of his word against mine and he is the "professional" and I am some "whack job in need of psychotherapy" that is making slanderous accusations? blah, blah, blah....

Who the hell knows. I could really do without all this other BS...really. *sigh*

I might have missed this part of the thread..but is there any way you could go see another doctor?...silly asking..i bet it has already been covered...

so I am to understand tht your daughter has AS?.

..My mom has all my symptoms..that's where I seem to have gotten them....and then there seems to be a history of high and low functioning spectrum folks on my dad's side as well...but somewhat of the sort I am less-similar to...the more left-brained....mathematical...obsessive compulsive engineer sort...i often wish I had those inclinations....but instead i have these mathematical and spatial impairments..


There is no telling what they would diagnose me with, were I to have acess to a specialist who actually cares...but i doubt I would be so fixated on WP if I did not have something that was related to the spectrum..at least I think.....

I remember reading on this other AS forum about how reluctant psychiatrists are to diagnose AS in adults...but that seems to contradict the fact that several on this board seem to have been diagnosed as adults..

Yes, I can do and plan to, but who and where, are the new questions. Wait lists are long enough that this fact alone is enough to piss even the calmest person off to no end, so now I have to begin the wait all over again and it is obvious you never can tell what you will find on the other end....



Yep, my daughter (aged nine) also has a Dx of Asperger's.



Lori (my mother~whole other story) also is VERY AS -like. Only to a more extreme end of things, I am sure. Her behaviours were so radical and selfish that it would make good sense for a doctor to believe that the family history was traumatic, but to assume we all need psychotherapy because of a major social, emotional, communication deficits that scream ASD is rather maddening!!

My youngest brother also is VERY AS-like. Bet he'd be the only one to get a dx. *sigh*

I am more arts and you could not pay me to get anything mathematical. I have huge sensory, motor planning issues etc . I figure the fact that I am here and this is central of all of my thoughts and energies at the moment should also be a clear indication that I am on the right track...

ahh.... the madness of it all.

no worries and thank you.

OFF TOPIC:

I was just looking at your writing/space and you look like you would definitely fit right in at The Burning Man. Some interesting and fun things....

i am scared of burning man.

I think the sensory overload would be too much..too many people would be trying to invade my personal space...either that, or i would get completely ignored, and spend the whole time alone...

I often post on a forum called www.tribe.net

and alot of the people on that forum either are from San francisco, or are really into the burning man thing...

I am scared of it because I have pretty severe social anxiety....although I am not opposed, I am not comfortable being around the whole "free love"vibe that it seems the event is overrun with...as strangers make me nervous and it takes me a long time to be comfortable with people.

If my current relationship had not recently turned into a crumpled up mess, I would be nervous about a bunch of people hitting on him...and hitting on me...and I am afraid I would not enjoy it.
I visualise myself curled up in a ball in the tent while everyone is off going wild.