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Zonder
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18 Sep 2008, 11:06 am

Thanks for replying, everyone. Yup, Tohlagos, I took a break for a while, nice to hear from you. The garden did really well, although right now its partially submerged. We had a lot of rain last week.

Apatura wrote:
I read both of Sowell's books carefully. What he doesn't seem to understand is the concept of an autistic SPECTRUM where some children with autistic symptoms (including late talking which is (wrongfully IMO) excluded from the AS criteria) "turn out ok" in that they are able to function pretty much independently, hold down jobs, have relationships, etc..

His books are drawn from anecdotes only and not real studies.

I did enjoy the books, don't get me wrong, but he TOTALLY misses the mark when it comes to the idea of there being an autistic spectrum with varying levels of functionality.


On the subject of the Autism Spectrum, I totally agree with Apatura, and something sticks in my mind that I read early on in my research of the subject. Its a quote by Lorna Wing explaining the theory that autism "ranges from the most profoundly physically and mentally ret*d person . . . to the most able, highly intelligent person with social impairment in its subtlest form as his only disability. It overlaps with learning disabilities and shades into eccentric normality." (Quoted by Steve Silberman in Wired Magazine, Dec. 2001).

Ultimately, Kanner's, Asperger's, Pervasive Developmental Disorder, the unofficial "Einstein Syndrome", or other labeling, is the result of how brains are wired and how effectively neural impulses are transmitted. Much like cancers have dysfunction of cell division in common, brain developmental disorders / differences have a dysfunction of neurological impulses in common, without having psychosis. Those who Sowell groups as having "Einstein Syndrome" are very likely at the "higher functioning" (in some areas loosely functioning) edge of the autism bell curve, but because there are many more people nearer the center of the curve, the diagnostic criteria were written to fit the center as well as those at the lower functioning end who can't communicate and are often institutionalized.

If you are at the "functioning" end of the curve, there is often little understanding or assistance even when you have difficulties with communicating, relating to people, learning, obsessive thinking, focus, and sensitivity. You're told to tough it out, buck up, try harder, don't be so anxious, and maybe take some medications.

I read an interview with Dr. Tony Attwood not long ago, and the interviewer seemed to notice unusual behavior in him that was similar to the Autism Spectrum such as his single-mindedness. Dr. Attwood said something like, "I'm not on the spectrum, I'm just eccentric." I suppose that Autism is so incredibly debilitating, that even Dr. Attwood prefers to not have that label, even if he has enough of the wiring to include him on the end of the spectrum as Lorna Wing described it.

I vote for a new category for those spectrumites who have the wiring but don't fit the current criteria, called Spectaculum Ora Syndrome, meaning, in Latin, The Edge of the Spectrum.

Z



Beenthere
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18 Sep 2008, 12:04 pm

Family Pattern

Close relatives in analytical occupation (engineer, scientist, mathematician)....Yes
Close relatives who are musicians, sometimes professionally...No
Close Relatives Who talked late...Not sure
Parents have high education level (59% four years of college)..No, but I believe that was only due to lacking financial resources and the area/timeframe they grew up in.

Individual Pattern

Majority are boys...No, female
High IQ...a bit above average
High analytical and/or musical abilities...Yes
Extremely good memory (to photographic)...Very
Unusual concentration and absorption in what they are doing...Yes, to the extent of losing site of everything around me.
Highly selective interests with achievement in some areas and ineptness in others...Selective, but varied
Precocious ability to read and/or use numbers and/or use computers...Yes
Late in socializing with their peers...Didn't care to.
Delayed Speech Development (Two years and up for full sentences)...Somewhat.
27 % of boys dislike meeting new people...Yes, but female.
Late in being toilet trained...No
Fascinated with mechanical things...Very much so.
Like building things...Yes
Like putting puzzles together...Yes, love them.
Strong-willed...Extremely


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Drakilor
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18 Sep 2008, 12:21 pm

Beenthere wrote:
Family Pattern

Close relatives in analytical occupation (engineer, scientist, mathematician)....Yes
Close relatives who are musicians, sometimes professionally...No
Close Relatives Who talked late...Not sure
Parents have high education level (59% four years of college)..No, but I believe that was only due to lacking financial resources and the area/timeframe they grew up in.

Individual Pattern

Majority are boys...No, female
High IQ...a bit above average
High analytical and/or musical abilities...Yes
Extremely good memory (to photographic)...Very
Unusual concentration and absorption in what they are doing...Yes, to the extent of losing site of everything around me.
Highly selective interests with achievement in some areas and ineptness in others...Selective, but varied
Precocious ability to read and/or use numbers and/or use computers...Yes
Late in socializing with their peers...Didn't care to.
Delayed Speech Development (Two years and up for full sentences)...Somewhat.
27 % of boys dislike meeting new people...Yes, but female.
Late in being toilet trained...No
Fascinated with mechanical things...Very much so.
Like building things...Yes
Like putting puzzles together...Yes, love them.
Strong-willed...Extremely

Bravo, you just succeeded in turning your post into a game of "fill in the blanks." Please accept this complementary colouring book and set of crayons.


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Anemone
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18 Sep 2008, 12:30 pm

The Einstein Syndrome sort of fits me, but in addition I'm on the spectrum.

I've read Sowell's two books, and while some of his subjects may be on the spectrum, he emphasizes repeatedly that most of these kids are socially normal - they just don't talk on schedule. This is completely different from people who are on the spectrum, who may or may not be speech delayed, but who are not socially normal regardless. There is a world of difference between being speech-delayed and being autistic.

I agree that he doesn't understand autism very well, and that some of these kids may well be autistic. But I think you miss the point of this book if you miss the part where speech delay (+ analytical giftedness) do not equal autism.

It is possible to fit the criteria of Einstein Syndrome and not be on the spectrum at all or need any intervention at any point in your life. If you are not willing to consider this possibility, you are wasting your time reading his books, since this is the point he is trying to make. He's worried about late talkers being misdiagnosed and subjected to unnecessary and potentially harmful "treatment" when all they need is to be left alone to develop at their own pace. And while I also believe that much "treatment" that is out there is probably also harmful to people on the spectrum, nevertheless people on the spectrum do need some sort of help at some point, and Sowell's late talkers mostly don't.



Zonder
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18 Sep 2008, 12:41 pm

This WP blog http://www.wrongplanet.net/modules.php? ... w&jid=7652 suggests that much more research is needed.

Z



MSO1729
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18 Sep 2008, 1:09 pm

Hey, I posted before I knew we could win crayons.



Drakilor
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18 Sep 2008, 1:47 pm

MSO1729 wrote:
Hey, I posted before I knew we could win crayons.

This post is possibly more ret*d than any of the children's games before it. At least they *tried* to contribute.


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zen_mistress
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18 Sep 2008, 3:10 pm

I think I was an early talker rather than a late one. And I am not mathematical at all. But, I probably would get the PDD-NOS diagnosis tather than the aspergers one.


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dougn
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18 Sep 2008, 4:27 pm

Most of these characteristics don't fit me. I didn't speak late, for one thing, but most of them still don't apply to me.

Honestly this sounds like a load of nonsense to me, an attempt to put a label on something that doesn't really need a label.



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18 Sep 2008, 5:41 pm

The point being missed is all views expressed come from one place, Normal People.

The Normal view is they were created perfect.

Known cursed people, who are not perfect,

Crazy people,

ret*ds,

Smart ret*ds.

Cursed people who can get away with it,

The larger,

The richer.

The only group it is safe to pick on in these politically correct times are the smart ret*ds.

To keep them from forming a gang they are seperated by such silly things as when they spoke.

Late speaker is some curse, normal is excluded from group A, put in group B, and early speakers must be killed, for I hear nothing about them.

By IQ groups are chopped up some more, then things like eye contact, giving a damn what other people think they deserve, "He's not respecting me!"

So yes, I feel that we are a modern African nation, carved out of three tribes lands, and united by Colonials that do not speak any of the languages, but want to make all the rules, like no changing borders in the Post Colonial Era, which means after they were run out. They are now so pure that it would be racism and aggression for tribes to join by traditional lands and language. Colonials were not thrown out, they Ascended.

Having dumped as hard as they could on the cursed, so the great normal powers will rule all, they now find that some of the children of their group seem cursed.

For the same traits that a native would be cursed for, they now want a Special Dispensation for their children, Einstein Syndrome.

Although identical to a condition that is reason to drug and oppress natives, they add a few key points, parents are educated, professionals, and have money=Einstein Syndrome.

It is just a natural range of perfect normal people.

"Show me a sane man, I will cure him." Carl Jung



patternist
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18 Sep 2008, 8:59 pm

Drakilor wrote:
This conversation disturbs me greatly. It would seem that this thread is doomed to a life of masturbatory rituals of the ego, rather than as a platform for intelligent discussion on the book and its authorship.
Given the choice, I would traverse to the science convention rather than idle at the spot, observing name droppers associating themselves with celebrities.


Well....yes. But there's really nothing wrong with that. It's only an online forum, not the grand summary of all things that define us as people. I say indulge. Compare self to Einstein. Many here benefit from the self-esteem boost that gives.



Carbonhalo
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18 Sep 2008, 9:27 pm

Zonder wrote:
I vote for a new category for those spectrumites who have the wiring but don't fit the current criteria, called Spectaculum Ora Syndrome, meaning, in Latin, The Edge of the Spectrum.



"Spectaculum" means spectacle or show.... I guess it still makes sense.
The nearest I could find was "modus"...

Einstein Syndrome?.... who of us has the front to compare ourselves to Einstein?

Yeah, yeah... lots of ticks in the list...

I no longer have anyone to ask about my childhood behaviour.



Zonder
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18 Sep 2008, 9:32 pm

Inventor wrote:
For the same traits that a native would be cursed for, they now want a Special Dispensation for their children, Einstein Syndrome.

Although identical to a condition that is reason to drug and oppress natives, they add a few key points, parents are educated, professionals, and have money=Einstein Syndrome.


You have it right, Inventor. I really dislike the term, it is about as pretentious, and at the same time stress producing as I have seen. I imagine a kid, who just wants to learn and please his/her parents and teachers, but is struggling, trying to live up to that label. But it is sure prettier than Autism Spectrum.

Z



Zonder
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18 Sep 2008, 9:37 pm

Carbonhalo wrote:
"Spectaculum" means spectacle or show.... I guess it still makes sense.
The nearest I could find was "modus"...

Einstein Syndrome?.... who of us has the front to compare ourselves to Einstein?


I cheated on the Latin and used an on-line translator. Modus Ora works too. It said continuum was "jugis".

Z



Beenthere
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18 Sep 2008, 9:58 pm

Drakilor wrote:
Beenthere wrote:
Family Pattern

Close relatives in analytical occupation (engineer, scientist, mathematician)....Yes
Close relatives who are musicians, sometimes professionally...No
Close Relatives Who talked late...Not sure
Parents have high education level (59% four years of college)..No, but I believe that was only due to lacking financial resources and the area/timeframe they grew up in.

Individual Pattern

Majority are boys...No, female
High IQ...a bit above average
High analytical and/or musical abilities...Yes
Extremely good memory (to photographic)...Very
Unusual concentration and absorption in what they are doing...Yes, to the extent of losing site of everything around me.
Highly selective interests with achievement in some areas and ineptness in others...Selective, but varied
Precocious ability to read and/or use numbers and/or use computers...Yes
Late in socializing with their peers...Didn't care to.
Delayed Speech Development (Two years and up for full sentences)...Somewhat.
27 % of boys dislike meeting new people...Yes, but female.
Late in being toilet trained...No
Fascinated with mechanical things...Very much so.
Like building things...Yes
Like putting puzzles together...Yes, love them.
Strong-willed...Extremely

Bravo, you just succeeded in turning your post into a game of "fill in the blanks." Please accept this complementary colouring book and set of crayons.


No thanks, already have a set. :wink:

Image


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Nan
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18 Sep 2008, 10:36 pm

Interesting supposition, so why not?

Zonder wrote:
Economist and conservative columnist Thomas Sowell published a book in 2001 titled Einstien Syndrome: Bright Children Who Talk Late. The book was inspired by his son who had a speech delay. Sewell, and a subsequent study, found a group of children who fit the following list of characteristics. He did not believe that these children had an Autism Spectrum Disorder, but others feel that it is just a renaming of a small group of high IQ children who have Asperger's.

Item for item, the following list describes me with one exception: I had a reading delay in addition to the speech delay. I have also learned social skills and do well in art.

Does anyone else have "Einstein Syndrome" characteristics?

Z PUTTING ASTERISKS TO THINGS THAT ~DO NOT~ MATCH ME


Family Pattern

Close relatives in analytical occupation (engineer, scientist, mathematician)
Close relatives who are musicians, sometimes professionally
Close Relatives Who talked late
Parents have high education level (59% four years of college) {My extended family was poor, nobody finished high school - except my dad who got a Masters in English only through the graces of the GI Bill after WWII - it was more poverty than ability that kept the rest from higher education.}

Individual Pattern

Majority are boys**
High IQ
High analytical and/or musical abilities
Extremely good memory (to photographic)
Unusual concentration and absorption in what they are doing
Highly selective interests with achievement in some areas and ineptness in others
Precocious ability to read and/or use numbers and/or use computers
Late in socializing with their peers
Delayed Speech Development (Two years and up for full sentences) {had a lot of ear infections that could have interfered with language development - they were pretty severe. this was a time when there were no antibiotics except penicillin, and I'm allergic to it.}
27 % of boys dislike meeting new people {am female, but hate meeting new people, really}
Late in being toilet trained *** {nope}
Fascinated with mechanical things
Like building things
Like putting puzzles together
Strong-willed


Overlaps with characteristics of intellectually gifted and autism spectrum.


“Poetry, art or social skills seldom figure prominently among their interests or achievements, either as children or adults.”


In response to other posts, people seem obsessed with quantifying and categorizing. Some of this, I suspect, comes from needing a perspective of a universe into which one can then place ones-self with some reasonable semblance of knowing where one "fits".

As to the name - the word Einstein is no longer just the name of a patent clerk who later proposed and won acclaim for several rather amazing mathematical propositions. It's now in the language, in daily use where I live, as meaning "someone exceptionally, unusually bright" and half the people who use it could neither tell you who the hell Einstein was nor anything he ever did. Just like a Nazi is no longer generally used here to mean a member of a political/social movement. It's general meaning now is someone who is oppressive and obsessive about rules and regulations.

Times change. Some things remain. People with massive insecurities trying to slam others to make themselves feel better will always be with us. NT and non-NT. Most people, I like to think, grow out of it someday. People getting together to compare notes is never a bad thing, I believe, if it helps put any kind of meaning on the chaos of life.



Last edited by Nan on 18 Sep 2008, 10:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.