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Fnord
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09 Feb 2009, 10:46 am

alba wrote:
The amazing feats of calculation performed by autistic savants can be repeatedly validated. Not understanding how they do it is hardly grounds to invalidate the fact of a successful performance. Such genetically evolved skills have probably been around for some time. Maybe tens of thousands of years. Could you prove otherwise? And what if the savants also have epileptic seizures? Would you say those seizures nullify their savant talents and capabilities?

What does any of this have to do with the futility of shamanic beliefs?

alba wrote:
What is the percentage of our brains we don't use? Around 90%?

No, all of our brain tissue is used, some moreso under certain conditions than others, but it all gets used.

alba wrote:
Having a closed mind is hardly a mark of intelligence and only fools would view it as such. Preferring to be limited because it doesn't fit into your logic boxes isn't useful to a rapidly evolving technological society. Logic is not a god to be worshipped. It is a tool to assist us with evolution, survival and technological progress. And logic isn't the only tool in the toolbox. Why would you limit yourself to only the use of a hammer when you also have a screwdriver, pliers, socket wrench etc? Why be so stubbornly against the idea of extra-sensory perceptions?

Because it's all fraudulent - there is no 'proof' to back up any assertion of ESP efficacy that does not involve delusion, interpretive error, or outright fraud.

alba wrote:
Remote viewers have been used by the military. Psychics by the police. Both for decades. What more proof do you need that even if such talents are denied to exist...

REAL Evidence, Please? Which military? Which police force? Which cases? Which psychics? I have yet to read an account of psychic involvement that did not lack specificity or that was not wide open to interpretive error or outright fraud.

alba wrote:
doesn't matter... because they're in demand and those talents are being put to good use.

"Argumentum ad Popularum" - The fallacy of believing in the efficacy of something simply because a lot of other people do. This is how religions get started.

Prove psychic abilities are real by posting my real name, in full and correctly spelled, in this thread. You may use any psychic ability at your disposal: Remote Viewing, Telepathy, Spirit Guides, Ouija Boards ... whatever psychic ability works best for you.

Meeting this challenge proves psychic abilities. Failure doesn't.

Go ahead ... I'm waiting!


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Fnord
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09 Feb 2009, 10:50 am

Padium wrote:
This thread is so circular, its not even a spiral...

Yeah ... superstitious people who refuse to learn REAL knowledge vs. educated people who refuse to stop trying to teach what's real.

It's a seemingly endless struggle, but eventually reality always wins.


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Loborojo
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09 Feb 2009, 11:11 am

Fnord wrote:
alba wrote:
The amazing feats of calculation performed by autistic savants can be repeatedly validated. Not understanding how they do it is hardly grounds to invalidate the fact of a successful performance. Such genetically evolved skills have probably been around for some time. Maybe tens of thousands of years. Could you prove otherwise? And what if the savants also have epileptic seizures? Would you say those seizures nullify their savant talents and capabilities?

What does any of this have to do with the futility of shamanic beliefs?

alba wrote:
What is the percentage of our brains we don't use? Around 90%?

No, all of our brain tissue is used, some moreso under certain conditions than others, but it all gets used.

alba wrote:
Having a closed mind is hardly a mark of intelligence and only fools would view it as such. Preferring to be limited because it doesn't fit into your logic boxes isn't useful to a rapidly evolving technological society. Logic is not a god to be worshipped. It is a tool to assist us with evolution, survival and technological progress. And logic isn't the only tool in the toolbox. Why would you limit yourself to only the use of a hammer when you also have a screwdriver, pliers, socket wrench etc? Why be so stubbornly against the idea of extra-sensory perceptions?

Because it's all fraudulent - there is no 'proof' to back up any assertion of ESP efficacy that does not involve delusion, interpretive error, or outright fraud.

alba wrote:
Remote viewers have been used by the military. Psychics by the police. Both for decades. What more proof do you need that even if such talents are denied to exist...

REAL Evidence, Please? Which military? Which police force? Which cases? Which psychics? I have yet to read an account of psychic involvement that did not lack specificity or that was not wide open to interpretive error or outright fraud.

alba wrote:
doesn't matter... because they're in demand and those talents are being put to good use.

"Argumentum ad Popularum" - The fallacy of believing in the efficacy of something simply because a lot of other people do. This is how religions get started.

Prove psychic abilities are real by posting my real name, in full and correctly spelled, in this thread. You may use any psychic ability at your disposal: Remote Viewing, Telepathy, Spirit Guides, Ouija Boards ... whatever psychic ability works best for you.

Meeting this challenge proves psychic abilities. Failure doesn't.

Go ahead ... I'm waiting!


there have been enough cases of paranormal evidence and oddly enough thosuands of years of Shamanic rituals have never turrned it into a religon. On the other hand our doctors have been worshipped for centuries as the new gods whose answers and methods were unquestionable.


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Loborojo
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09 Feb 2009, 11:12 am

Fnord wrote:
Padium wrote:
This thread is so circular, its not even a spiral...

Yeah ... superstitious people who refuse to learn REAL knowledge vs. educated people who refuse to stop trying to teach what's real.

It's a seemingly endless struggle, but eventually reality always wins.


even Einstein said, that we only used 13 % of our brain.


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JoJerome
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09 Feb 2009, 11:32 am

Damn lack of electricity keeping me away from the fun threads like these...

On shamanism and AS sensitivity to same...

I am an atheist who also practices auto-hypnosis, Wicca and Neo-Paganism. I have no problem seeing my trance-like experiences as simply tapping into parts of the brain I'm not used to tapping into and my abstract self struggling to put familiar visual frames around concepts which have none. Because the experiences can be explained scientifically and psychologically doesn't have to negate their usefulness. I still find such a state allows me to examine a situation from a new angle I wouldn't have thought of before.

But neither does such a state convince me that I am therefore talking to gods and angels. If someone of a belief I don't hold were to claim that, I would say they are misinterpreting a contained, psychological experience to boost their own egos. What then makes me any better than that?

As for the AS influence, I hadn't considered that we tend to have more hypersensitivity/lack of sensitivity to certain drugs. My work is all done drug-free. I will say I do a whole lot more logical analyzing of the experiences, which is maybe why so many of us are atheists. We're more likely to see the experience as psychologically induced than to conclude "I thought of something new ... therefore god must have done it."

On psychic abilities, remote viewing, etc in general
My understanding is that they are not a switch you can turn on and off or say 'answer this specific question, such as what is Fnord's real name.' And yes, that comes off as a major cop-out. Scientifically, it fits. However, that makes such abilities almost impossible to prove scientifically and gives the phony psychic a huge excuse.

And, it goes back to my above point; how do we tell the difference between a true, psychic vision versus self-fulfilled prophecies or wishful thinking?

That said, if there were actual gods/entities involved and not just our own connections to a Unified Field, and those gods/entities really wanted to be taken seriously, then I would expect them to perform some specific act of validation, such as telling us Fnord's real name.



psych
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09 Feb 2009, 11:34 am

Here is an interesting lecture that touches on the difference between knowledge & information (from about 3mins onwards)

It touches indirectly on a lot of points raised so far.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEsrbSC1 ... playnext=1



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09 Feb 2009, 12:17 pm

Loborojo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Padium wrote:
This thread is so circular, its not even a spiral...

Yeah ... superstitious people who refuse to learn REAL knowledge vs. educated people who refuse to stop trying to teach what's real.

It's a seemingly endless struggle, but eventually reality always wins.

even Einstein said, that we only used 13 % of our brain.

Einstein was wrong.

> Link to Article <

Dr. Einstein was a Theoretical Physicist - not a biologist, not a medical doctor, not a neurologist, and not in any way educated in how the brain operates. Therefore, any statement that he is alleged to have made regarding the operation of the human brain would have been outside his realm of study.

Furthermore, repeatably verifiable evidence since Dr. Einstein's alleged statement has proven beyond any doubt that the "10-Percent Brain" statement is a myth, at best.

Welcome to the modern world.


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Loborojo
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09 Feb 2009, 1:15 pm

JoJerome wrote:
Damn lack of electricity keeping me away from the fun threads like these...

On shamanism and AS sensitivity to same...

I am an atheist who also practices auto-hypnosis, Wicca and Neo-Paganism. I have no problem seeing my trance-like experiences as simply tapping into parts of the brain I'm not used to tapping into and my abstract self struggling to put familiar visual frames around concepts which have none. Because the experiences can be explained scientifically and psychologically doesn't have to negate their usefulness. I still find such a state allows me to examine a situation from a new angle I wouldn't have thought of before.

But neither does such a state convince me that I am therefore talking to gods and angels. If someone of a belief I don't hold were to claim that, I would say they are misinterpreting a contained, psychological experience to boost their own egos. What then makes me any better than that?

As for the AS influence, I hadn't considered that we tend to have more hypersensitivity/lack of sensitivity to certain drugs. My work is all done drug-free. I will say I do a whole lot more logical analyzing of the experiences, which is maybe why so many of us are atheists. We're more likely to see the experience as psychologically induced than to conclude "I thought of something new ... therefore god must have done it."

On psychic abilities, remote viewing, etc in general
My understanding is that they are not a switch you can turn on and off or say 'answer this specific question, such as what is Fnord's real name.' And yes, that comes off as a major cop-out. Scientifically, it fits. However, that makes such abilities almost impossible to prove scientifically and gives the phony psychic a huge excuse.

And, it goes back to my above point; how do we tell the difference between a true, psychic vision versus self-fulfilled prophecies or wishful thinking?

That said, if there were actual gods/entities involved and not just our own connections to a Unified Field, and those gods/entities really wanted to be taken seriously, then I would expect them to perform some specific act of validation, such as telling us Fnord's real name.


You can't force gods or entities to say something, just as they couldn't force Christ to admit that he was the King of the Jews.

I have been an atheist for 37 years and a stubborn one, and after my major trance all things I said and done in that trance compelled me to the other side and there was no way back.

Being doubled back, litterally falling flat on my back, on bended knees, when Hanuman appeared and nearly suffocated me and to which I apologised to him for not having worshipped him for so long, was strong enough a vision and proof that I or my brain wasn't imagining anything!


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Last edited by Loborojo on 09 Feb 2009, 2:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Fnord
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09 Feb 2009, 2:34 pm

Loborojo wrote:
Being double back literally fallin gflat on my back on bended knees when Hanuman appeared and nearly suffocated me and to which I apologised to him for having worshipped him for so long, was strong aenough a vision and proof that I or my brain wasn't imagining anything!

"Proof" to you, perhaps. But a purely subjective experience (if it actually occurred) is never proof enough to others.

I call "Hallucination" at best, and "Fabrication" at worst.


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Loborojo
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09 Feb 2009, 2:43 pm

Fnord wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
Being doubled back litterally falling flat on my back, on bended knees, when Hanuman appeared and nearly suffocated me and to which I apologised to him for not having worshipped him for so long, was strong enough a vision and proof that I or my brain wasn't imagining anything!


"Proof" to you, perhaps. But a purely subjective experience (if it actually occurred) is never proof enough to others.

I call "Hallucination" at best, and "Fabrication" at worst.


said the unbelieving Thomas.


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Padium
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09 Feb 2009, 2:54 pm

This is just turning into a he said/she said thing. I have experienced psychic phenomenon first hand, still don't know whether to believe in it or not. I don't really care either way. But lets drop this thread as it is going nowhere, and nobody on either side is really adding anything new, with the exception of the side for paranormal.



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09 Feb 2009, 3:01 pm

Loborojo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
Being doubled back litterally falling flat on my back, on bended knees, when Hanuman appeared and nearly suffocated me and to which I apologised to him for not having worshipped him for so long, was strong enough a vision and proof that I or my brain wasn't imagining anything!


"Proof" to you, perhaps. But a purely subjective experience (if it actually occurred) is never proof enough to others.

I call "Hallucination" at best, and "Fabrication" at worst.

said the unbelieving Thomas.

Demonstrate something for me to believe.

... and "Thomas" is not my real name ... another failure for the "Shaman." :roll:


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Loborojo
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09 Feb 2009, 3:04 pm

Fnord wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
Being doubled back litterally falling flat on my back, on bended knees, when Hanuman appeared and nearly suffocated me and to which I apologised to him for not having worshipped him for so long, was strong enough a vision and proof that I or my brain wasn't imagining anything!


"Proof" to you, perhaps. But a purely subjective experience (if it actually occurred) is never proof enough to others.

I call "Hallucination" at best, and "Fabrication" at worst.

said the unbelieving Thomas.

Demonstrate something for me to believe.

... and "Thomas" is not my real name ... another failure for the "Shaman." :roll:


I invite you for an Ayahuasca, san Pedro or Marihuana ritual with me, others get merely high, I go into trance and I read that Marihuana is not really an hallucinogic plant and yet I go in trance with it


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Padium
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09 Feb 2009, 3:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
Being doubled back litterally falling flat on my back, on bended knees, when Hanuman appeared and nearly suffocated me and to which I apologised to him for not having worshipped him for so long, was strong enough a vision and proof that I or my brain wasn't imagining anything!


"Proof" to you, perhaps. But a purely subjective experience (if it actually occurred) is never proof enough to others.

I call "Hallucination" at best, and "Fabrication" at worst.

said the unbelieving Thomas.

Demonstrate something for me to believe.

... and "Thomas" is not my real name ... another failure for the "Shaman." :roll:


He never said it was your name, he was merely referring to what is known by some as a doubting Thomas, which is a reference to a biblical quote, and used to refer to someone who doubts something whether it be true or otherwise.



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09 Feb 2009, 3:19 pm

Loborojo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Loborojo wrote:
Being doubled back litterally falling flat on my back, on bended knees, when Hanuman appeared and nearly suffocated me and to which I apologised to him for not having worshipped him for so long, was strong enough a vision and proof that I or my brain wasn't imagining anything!


"Proof" to you, perhaps. But a purely subjective experience (if it actually occurred) is never proof enough to others.

I call "Hallucination" at best, and "Fabrication" at worst.

said the unbelieving Thomas.

Demonstrate something for me to believe.

... and "Thomas" is not my real name ... another failure for the "Shaman." :roll:

I invite you for an Ayahuasca, san Pedro or Marihuana ritual with me, others get merely high, I go into trance and I read that Marihuana is not really an hallucinogic plant and yet I go in trance with it

You're inviting me to a pot party. No thank you. One polluted mind between the two of us is one too many. I prefer to keep my thoughts healthy.


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