Logical vs. Emotional relationships

Post Reply New Topic

Oh, it wasn't ideal. Being free to find other partners, I eventually did so, and that led me to end both those "open relationships" in order to give the monogamous ones a fair chance. I also became quite suspicious of anybody who didn't seem to expect fidelity, because I'd noticed that in spite of these open contracts, nobody involved truly saw sexual rivals as anything other than bad news, and the fine declarations we'd make to each other about respecting freedom etc. turned out to be a load of hooey. I guess we just didn't know ourselves very well back then.

The relationships weren't unhappy as such, and they were a lot better than nothing at the time, but the jealousy feelings and the endings were always hurtful. The most difficult thing was when I'd moved on to a traditional relationship and I happened to bump into the lady I'd previously been in the open relationship with. She was at a very low ebb emotionally and I realised I could do nothing to help her because that would have been a threat to my new relationship. It's very hard to have to watch somebody you once cared a lot about, falling to pieces when you can't protect them. Admittedly it was really her own fault, as she'd insisted on the open deal from the start, when I'd have much preferred the traditional deal, but I still felt that somehow I'd let her down.

Isn't a logical relationship kinda along the same lines as an arranged marriage? (Well, depending on the time/place/status you think of with that concept..) The point is largely compatibility and stability-- you get two people together with similar values, similar wants, similar expectations out of life, in the hopes that that will minimize conflict and produce stability, and that those things will produce fondness and eventually love. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't; same as emotionally based relationships. Sometimes love conquers all, and sometimes it burns you. It all depends on what you want, just because something is right for some people doesn't mean it's right for others. Life would certainly be simpler if what worked for one person worked for everyone else, and the other way around.. but one horror story doesn't mean that it won't make someone else happy, and one happily-ever-after doesn't mean that a similar situation won't make someone else miserable.

Something along that line, yeah. And an arranged marriage, as Maggiedoll mentioned, would be an interesting example of a logical relationship hopefully becoming an emotional one as well, i.e. "learn" to love someone.

Yes, an arranged marriage is probably based a lot more on logic, at least during the selection phase. I think I'd have been delighted if my parents had offered up the occasional prospective partner - it would have saved me all the anxiety and embarrassment of finding my own, and maybe with somebody more detached making the selection, it would be made with a little more wisdom. I was always bothered by the usual method of selection - I felt that if I didn't know of several women who definitely wanted a relationship with me (and with most women being rather coy about revealing their interest and me being poor at reading the subtle signs, I've never once concluded myself to be in that position), then I wasn't really making a selection at all.......if there's been nobody interested for some time, it's only too easy to jump at the first one who seems willing.

I suppose most of the objections to arranged marriages are to do with the pressure to accept this or that person....a lot of parents used to put wealth and status before emotional compatibility, if Victorian novels are anything to go by. I suppose avoiding poverty was even more vital then, than it is today.

But I think the logic here is more about the selection than the actual relationship. Once the relationship begins, the emotions have to be reckoned with, though I don't doubt there's an equal need to keep the logic of the match in sight.

That's an extremely good point..


There was a girl in my class in college who was expecting an arranged marriage. One day in class she mentioned hoping her mom would find her a husband soon. Obviously this met with a lot of questions about why she wanted that (she said she was lonely, she wanted someone) and whether she had to marry whoever her mom picked (she said that if she hated the guy or something, she wouldn't be forced, but seemed to think it was a pretty silly idea that her mother would think someone she absolutely hated was good for her.)
All those Victorian novels are romance stories about love triumphing over all.. if the planned marriage went well, there would be no story.
But also, with the internet and dating sites and everything, there's becoming a new kind of arranged marriage/relationship that the couple themselves choose. People get online looking for someone that they're compatible with, that they can agree with, put up profiles that describe their attitudes and what they want out of life and out of a partner.. Granted, people can lie about those things, but that happens with conventional relationships (conventional for modern relationships, anyway) based on "chemistry" or "sparks" too. So the more modern equivalent doesn't have that "but I want to choose my own life" factor that contributed to all those Victorian novels. .
A lot of times I think that what so many people call "true love" is just lust or infatuation. If you can't get along with someone, if they confuse you and you can't understand someone and you fight with them all the time, if you're not happy with them in basic ways and as they are, then it's not love. All the time, people want to change their partner, and are sure that they can change their partner "because they're in love." If you have to change someone or totally change yourself in order to get along with them, how is that love? Just because there's some hormone rush that goes along with it?
True love triumphing over adversity makes for a good novel.. but I don't think drama in everyday life is such a good situation.

If you're happy with someone, as they are, you want to be with them on a daily basis, do things for them, trust them.. you can be yourself and they can be themselves and anything that you change, you change for both of you, and you can really see the rest of your life with them.. that's true love.

I'm not into it. I'd rather live in my dream world. Whenever we rationalize things that don't ring true, I pass. I'd rather be crazy and wish for the castle in the sky. I'd die happier if I could contain the hope of a happy ending. All the people around me are happier when I am happy and peaceful too so that shows me that having lowered expectations brings everyone down.

You're right, those novels don't prove anything about the true nature of arranged marriages - and there may be an element of bias in the popular modern view too - how can the developed world pretend it's got the best methods if it has to admit that the Muslims have something that's worth a try?

I think the online dating game is has a lot going for it - it does present its own specific problems but I don't think it's overall any worse than the traditional way. I've noticed a rather harsh belief, in some circles, that anybody who "has to" use dating agencies is just a failure - one lady looked quite disgusted when I told her I'd signed up with an agency, some years ago, though she herself had the most traumatic relationships, in spite of their "superior" origins in public bars and dance halls.

Why do so many women seem to feel that if a man doesn't chase them hard and doesn't risk looking a complete idiot by declaring his passion when they seem completely indifferent towards him, he isn't worthy of a relationship? I know a lot of them aren't like that, but why are any of them even a tiny bit like that? What do they get from it that does them any good?

I'm sorry.. that made me giggle. It is pretty crazy how people can convince themselves that finding a partner in a bar is a "good" and "natural" way of going about it that doesn't at all indicate desperation. Seriously, looking for a relationship by getting drunk and seeking out other drunk people? That's supposed to be less desperate than formally looking for somebody that you're actually compatible with?? Something is extremely wrong with that concept.
I understand falling into the trap of believing that then you're doing what you want to do, yadda yadda... but it's still totally irrational.

I think I have other responses to the rest of your post, but I haven't properly thought of them yet, and the dog wants to go for a walk.

Yes it does seem a crazy way to find a mate, unless they're using alcohol as truth serum. It's possible that the lady in question was more annoyed that I'd become unavailable to her, because of the dating agency........she'd never been my girlfriend but we'd spent a lot of time together and had been quite close, and it would have been hard for a new partner to understand our friendship, so our arrangement was under threat.

Looking forward to your additional remarks

I think a huge part of it is people wanting to have the illusion of choice. (Which is actually totally contradictory to the whole bit about finding "the one," because if there's one that you're supposed to be with, how can you have a choice about it anyway?) If you specifically decide to not do something that someone else wants you do to, you've based your choice off of them just as much as if you did do what they wanted you to do. That's the entire premise of reverse psychology-- getting someone to do what you want them to do by making them think that you want them to do the opposite, therefore tricking them into rebelling against what they think you want by doing what you actually want.
Of course, for the entire concept of a "setup" relationship to make any sense at all, those doing the setting up need to care about and be very familiar with the people that they're setting up. (That sounds obvious, that that's the whole problem with all those Victorian novels you were talking about--the people being set up are being used as pawns, not being thought of as people at all.)
It's also rather popular for people to complain about their relatives attempts to set them up. People like to complain, and to relate to other people's complaints. I think there are a lot of things that are viewed in a negative light just because somebody wants something to complain about, or to fight/rebel against. It occurred to me a long time ago that people have an innate need to struggle. It's what gives them the will to fight for what they believe in.. but in the absence of something legitimate to struggle for, people will find something, or assign something as "bad" just to have something to fight against. People want to be persecuted, to believe that they've been wronged, that they deserve more.. it gives them purpose. Without it, they feel lost, so they invent something.


She wants to feel that he'll fight for her, that he cares enough to struggle to get her. Probably the basis behind it is that he won't give up on the relationship later, that she "knows" from the beginning that he'll be strong and get through difficult times. I think more often the result is that after struggling to get into a relationship, people feel that they shouldn't have to continue to put effort into making it work, that they're already past the hard part. (Because that's what they were fighting for to begin with, I guess.) So while the whole concept backfires, it actually does make a tiny bit of sense..

Not sure how to verbalize exactly what I want to say on this matter.....but firstly...ToughDiamond...I totally relate to your story in that I have 2 partners mainly because my main partner would not stop cheating, as he is poly-inclined..and um...well that's just how things go....I am attached to both of my partners...but it has not been entirely simple..
My feelings for my main partner changed a lot because of the cheating...but it had been a struggle from early-on because even though we are extremely compatible as people, it has always been a roller coaster...from the very beginning....it is not that I don't love him...but I have some baggage regarding my feelings for him...and I have "intimacy issues" That are troublesome...but if it weren't for these things, and for all the constant stress..and a few other minor issues we'd be as compatible as chips and salsa....in some ways we are TOO compatible...we both hoard stuff......We both are extremely forgetful and have executive dysfunction...

As in your situation, technically, my "other" partner is free to pursue other partners, but he is ASish, and painfully shy, and I can be emotionally covetous, because not only is he my other partner, he is also one of very few people who I have a close friendship bond with....and I worry that when he finds a new partner, I will lose his friendship.

Anywhoo..he used to lament that he wished that some girl would irrationally fall head-over-heels for him, citing that ours was a somewhat "logical" relationship, in that it made sense...We were practically set up together...My partner was out of town with his other girlfriend, and I was alone for 10 days, and encouraged to hang out with him...He being one of the painfully few people I am on comfortable speaking terms with.....I reasoned with him that it was not so much like that....that it was not my plan to "hook up" with him...and the "logical" thing would have been for our first time to have remained a one-night-stand...and to not have gotten so mixed up in each-other's lives....
I have sorta fought to remain poly on my terms and not on the more casual terms of my main partner....it is my first poly relationship..and I seldom find other people attractive, and don't like sleeping around...So we have been rather consistent since the beginning....though I need to give him space...so he can branch out and not feel trapped by me....

I WISH that it weren't so, but I have often been very at odds with logic and emotion..and for whatever reason...emotion always manages to pierce logic through the guts with humiliating results....

Howyousay...I have on more than one occasion found myself at the mercy of horrible illogical attacks of limerance that ripped apart more logical, but happy, affectionate and functional relationships, and I believe I would be a much better person if I weren't so vulnerable to this horrible human flaw....

I have been in both logic-based and emotionally-driven relationships...and ideally the best scenario is a happy balance between the two, but that has been hard to come by for me....There seems to be a sort of happy balance between the two in my current situation....

My very first relationship was logic-based....There can be weakness and stupidity mixed with logic too (flawed logic).....The logic behind my first long-term relationship was that I was young and very spazzy and I had just become the singer of a band. My guitar player pursued a relationship with me because (I think)...I was so flighty and spacey that this would be a way of controlling me and keeping me focused and dedicated to the band....(and plus I was 15 and although, not really his physical type, i guess 20-something year old males are just driven to pursue any much-younger girl who happens to be in the vicinity)..it was not taken into account at the appropriate time that it was statutory rape, and that emotionally, I was a 10-year-old...So he finds himself stuck with this basket case liability on his hands...and I was stuck in a situation I was too young for, with no understanding of my rights and a very difficult time interpreting my own feelings...I was at odds with myself constantly......We had very little success communicating about our relationship..It was so hard for me to communicate about anything that I just cried a whole lot...thinking that anything that I could think would somehow be wrong....and we were together for 6 years...(it got gradually easier as I got older)....We grew accustomed to each other, but there was very little chemistry between us...(or was it me?) He was demanding..I had to comply...I rebelled I was punished...I was really very confused....and lacking in certain fundamental emotional building blocks that I could have maybe used to defend myself. For what it is worth, I think I learned some hard lessons from that era of my life, and also, it is what enabled me to sing in a band for 10 years..and we are still friends...

For my second real relationship, I was in my early 20's and I fell head-over-heels
The guy didn't realize how messed up I was...and split as soon as he could, but we remained "friends" and I was emotionally warped by the experience for several years...but I was in a few successively more and more stable relationships....finding it hard to get emotionally involved because I was so warped by the guy I became obsessed with when I was 22.
Maybe the fact that I had a hard time becoming too emotionally attached somehow made me a better partner...I have always been good at being a friend, and at staying friends after the relationship...
I was in one relationship for 2 years, and we got along extremely well and remained friends for years after the relationship crumbled because I was still warped by my 2nd relationship...I still miss his friendship. He has since procreated, and I think is no longer allowed to have anything to do with me...He acts like he is still my friend whenever I run into him in public..but um...that is a very rare occurrence.

Um....

I am rambling too much..

Bad things happened during the first phase of my relationship with my main partner..that I have mentioned before....I became limerant with my partner's friend who lived with us and was in a band with us...He was an Aquarius...like the guy I "fell in love with" and he had the same first name...and he was also a drummer....just like the guy who warped my head....Never mind the fact that he had serious Borderline Personality issues and had called me retarded....both to my face and behind my back on numerous occasions......
I was under a lot of stress from running the venue...i was unstable and overwhelmed and there was too much beyond my control...and there was frequent stress from Flakey flirting with other women and wanting to be poly even though I could not handle it...and the one person I was remotely attracted to was the one person who was seriously "forbidden"........and to make a long story short, I sang on his album and ended up running off to live with him for 6 months....I broke up with Flakey first....and tried to make it a functional transition...but it was still incredibly stupid...and of course we didn't get along for very long and I couldn't find friends or get a job...and I was under constant stress from Flakey to come back....even though he had another girlfriend...as well as the "poly" relationship he's always wanted...with her....

sorry for rambling and rambling..and I know this will likely kill the thread...but I can't stop now because I have been working on this post all evening..it seems...

but
Currently my balance between logical and emotional relationships lines up as follows...in a sort of checks and balances fashion...

Flakey is illogically and emotionally attached to me even though I can't drive and am extremely scattered and horrible at helping him run the businesses and I can't drive and it is very difficult for me to talk to people...and I have a low-stress threshold and become very irritable and overwhelmed at the drop of a hat.
Even though he could reasonably date an "adult" who could help him with all the stuff...he is completely adverse to the idea...because a useless scatterbrain is "so much easier to live with"...(but his other girlfriend drives....and can talk to people and can do lots of things that I can't do..)
If I were more emotionally attached to Flakey than I am, (as I was when we were monogamous...and if I were still in that monogamous mindset..where his dalliances seriously upset me) he would probably be more driven to pursue adventures with other females...now that it is allowed, it is not so inviting. He occasionally has flings, but he never seems very enthusiastic about them....

I am emotionally attached to my ASish friend even though he drinks too much and has terrible meltdowns..and even though rationally I know that we might have a difficult time trying to make it on our own because we are both so emotionally immature, and he is so sensitive and sometimes difficult so that many times my best intentions can go horribly awry....He is one of the few people in the world who I can comfortably deal with, and who's company, I always look forward to...

Logically, it works for him because with me at least he has SOMEone...who has known him very well for years and who tries not to impose expectations on him...and he can talk to me about anything..including his fantasies regarding other women....(he has not had that many relationships...and has gone celibate for years just due to shyness, but he has a vivd imagination ...)

Logically and emotionally Flakey and I have been together for years..and we have been though a lot...and even though I often don't feel like I deserve anything more than marginal employment and rooming house dwelling, Instead, I live in this gigantic warehouse with a person who attempts to cater to my every creative and obsessive whim...
I should be grateful...and i am sure I would miss it once it all came crumbling down and I went back to squeaking out a living...but I still get frustrated and overwhelmed and so on and so forth....I need to work on being better to Flakey...he really is the source of stablity in my life..and has done a lot for me..


sorry for the really really long and overly-personal post....

Well, you haven't killed it yet

It's interesting what you've written......let me get this clear - is Flakey the first or second of your partners, chronologically? I'm guessing he was first but I'm not sure.

He's the first...i refer to him as my "main" partner,since I live with him and whatnot... We have been together (a few breakups aside) for almost 7 years. We run 2 businesses together...an herbal business and also our venue,

My "other" partner, (who I refer to as my ASish friend) has been my/our friend for almost 6 years, but we have been dating for about a year and a half.

We are also all in a band together...the 3 of us plus one other person...

So, it's a test of caring and strength. I suppose the reason why this is rarely explained at the time is to keep the "observer effect" out of the experiment - a guy might easily distort the result if he knew he only had to fake it for a short time. But I agree that it's very likely to backfire, especially when used on young Aspie men.

I see........and the arrangement has lasted longer than many conventional relationships do, which is quite good - a lot of the "experiments" I knew about back in the 1970s collapsed very quickly, so you seem to have bucked the trend