you can be trans, but there are 2 genders

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einsteinmyhero
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19 Apr 2017, 1:33 pm

You can go form one to the other-that i very much believe in. i myself am questioning my gender. but there are only 2 people. stop being a bunch of sjw's and get over yourselves. I feel the need to post this as it irritates me seeing all these 'non binary' people la dee da-ing about.


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NeilM
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19 Apr 2017, 2:37 pm

Until you can disconnect gender from sex, ie, what is between your ears may or may not agree with what is between your legs, you will not grasp non-binary. Furthermore, what is between your ears resides on an extensive scale rather than being opposites sides of a coin.


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19 Apr 2017, 8:36 pm

Reading this post gave me diarrhea.


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19 Apr 2017, 9:33 pm

einsteinmyhero wrote:
You can go form one to the other-that i very much believe in. i myself am questioning my gender. but there are only 2 people. stop being a bunch of sjw's and get over yourselves. I feel the need to post this as it irritates me seeing all these 'non binary' people la dee da-ing about.


Gender is much more like a double bell curve with overlapping areas, if those bell curves were multidimensional and overlapped in inconsistent ways. It's irrelevant to me if someone identifies as male gendered, female gendered, effeminate, tom boy, or gender non-binary because, in the end, those labels don't actually tell me much about them, and my idea of who they are will be constructed from my actual interactions with them. However if it makes a person feel whole to use these labels to describe themselves, then that's their prerogative.



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19 Apr 2017, 11:50 pm

I also find non-binary genders hard to grasp. I'm pretty sure I have gender dysphoria. My male body is almost a constant source of distress, and I think having a female body would make me happy and allow me to get on with my life. But it's hard to understand how someone can have such a precise understanding of where their gender lies on the spectrum. I can't really understand trying to fine tune it so that you're somewhere in the middle. I mean, if you're a natal male you have the choice of either taking estrogen/spiro, or leaving your natural hormones intact. That's a binary choice. It's not possible to partially transition, because you can only choose either male or female physiology.

To be honest, the skeptical part of me has trouble with the entire concept of binary transgenderism as well. I have huge doubts that maybe it's just extreme vanity or something that's causing me to feel this way.

But I think if someone wants to identify as non-binary and requests they/them pronouns, people should respect that. It doesn't hurt anyone, so there's really no problem.



alisoncc
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20 Apr 2017, 10:55 pm

Chronos wrote:
Gender is much more like a double bell curve with overlapping areas.

BS. One's gender isn't some kind of academic exercise. Those who choose to state that they do not know what they are need to be locked up in a loony bin. They spend too much time thinking about it and not enough time actually being. Suspect many here on WP are trolls just posting to elicit a response.

I am now 73, and from the age of 6 I knew I was really a girl, not a boy. At the age of 6 I remember being given a good hiding by my father for putting on my older sisters coat to go to Sunday school. At no point have I ever thought "I don't know what gender I am", and I don't believe anyone else does either.


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21 Apr 2017, 5:44 am

Heh, I had to google what "sjw" meant. Why is that insulting? I would have thought social justice was a good thing...

Quote:
But it's hard to understand how someone can have such a precise understanding of where their gender lies on the spectrum. I can't really understand trying to fine tune it so that you're somewhere in the middle. I mean, if you're a natal male you have the choice of either taking estrogen/spiro, or leaving your natural hormones intact. That's a binary choice. It's not possible to partially transition, because you can only choose either male or female physiology.

Perhaps some don't have such a precise understanding of where their gender is, but more of an understanding of what it's not - not male or female. Fine tuning is a nuisance, but it's also quite liberating.
It's also incorrect that you cannot partially transition. It's very much possible to have aspects of both genders about you. Physiology can be quite fluid too.
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At no point have I ever thought "I don't know what gender I am", and I don't believe anyone else does either.

Yes but you're a woman, you have a very strong gender identity. Others do question this, they have a different experience of this aspect of being human. It doesn't make them crazy or dangerous in my opinion. Just different. I notice a lot of binary transfolk seem to respond defensively towards gender questioning people, as if they view genderqueer identity as invalidating their own. I don't believe anyone who identifies differently is doing so in order to invalidate binary identity, trans or otherwise.
To the OP - I notice your info there says you're 15. I don't intend to patronize, but your ideas around gender may change from how you feel as a teenager. Why exactly does it annoy you? Examining that may be insightful in figuring out your own questioning. But then again, that may be just me la-dee-da-ing about it / myself. :wink:


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NeilM
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21 Apr 2017, 8:48 am

So obviously you consider the only difference between men and women is their genitalia? Their plumbing if you will?

If you read the book Brain Sex by Anne Moir and David Jessel (available at Amazon), they explain how ones brain is influenced by the levels of hormones available during fetal development such that most people mature with brains that agree with their genitalia. However, a small percentage but still a significant number of individuals find themselves with brains (mental outlook, personalities, gender identification, or whatever) that do not agree with their genitals. I use the phrase "do not agree" because their brain may be fairly close to what the genitalia indicate, it may be farther away, or it may be totally to the other end of the continuum, depending on the level of hormones (mostly testosterone) present during their fetal development. And btw, brain development and genital development happen at different times while the fetus is in the womb so varying levels of hormones is to be expected.

Hopefully this sheds some new light on this lack of understanding.


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einsteinmyhero
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21 Apr 2017, 9:23 am

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Heh, I had to google what "sjw" meant. Why is that insulting? I would have thought social justice was a good thing...

It is. just bad when people act like sjws about it because then it leads to limitations on free speech, safe spaces, etc. etc.


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21 Apr 2017, 7:30 pm

alisoncc wrote:
Chronos wrote:
Gender is much more like a double bell curve with overlapping areas.

BS. One's gender isn't some kind of academic exercise. Those who choose to state that they do not know what they are need to be locked up in a loony bin. They spend too much time thinking about it and not enough time actually being. Suspect many here on WP are trolls just posting to elicit a response.

I am now 73, and from the age of 6 I knew I was really a girl, not a boy. At the age of 6 I remember being given a good hiding by my father for putting on my older sisters coat to go to Sunday school. At no point have I ever thought "I don't know what gender I am", and I don't believe anyone else does either.


I did not say anything about confusion. What I meant by a multidimensional double overlapping bell curve is that there are people of one gender who possess many traits typically thought to be characteristic of the opposite gender. A tomboy is a good example of this.



alisoncc
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21 Apr 2017, 8:28 pm

Chronos wrote:
I did not say anything about confusion. What I meant by a multidimensional double overlapping bell curve is that there are people of one gender who possess many traits typically thought to be characteristic of the opposite gender.

Gender isn't about whether you played with dolls or trains as a child. It's about what your brain tells you you are. Sex relates to what is between your legs, your genitalia, whereas gender relates to what happens between your ears.

For instance before being diagnosed with GID, I would often fill out forms incorrectly. Typically many forms ask for first name, surname, DoB, gender, location, etc. etc.. If I wasn't thinking I would often tick female, and then have to go back and correct it, as legally I was male. You would have to be pretty screwed up if when you came to the "gender" box, you ticked both boxes or neither.

Alison


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21 Apr 2017, 10:01 pm

alisoncc wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I did not say anything about confusion. What I meant by a multidimensional double overlapping bell curve is that there are people of one gender who possess many traits typically thought to be characteristic of the opposite gender.

Gender isn't about whether you played with dolls or trains as a child. It's about what your brain tells you you are. Sex relates to what is between your legs, your genitalia, whereas gender relates to what happens between your ears.

For instance before being diagnosed with GID, I would often fill out forms incorrectly. Typically many forms ask for first name, surname, DoB, gender, location, etc. etc.. If I wasn't thinking I would often tick female, and then have to go back and correct it, as legally I was male. You would have to be pretty screwed up if when you came to the "gender" box, you ticked both boxes or neither.

Alison


I didn't say it was whether or not you played with dolls as a child. However gender involves a complex play between psyche and social constructs, and likely biology, and a male child who plays with dolls in this society would transcend social gender boundaries of society with regards to that one thing.



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22 Apr 2017, 6:52 am

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You would have to be pretty screwed up if when you came to the "gender" box, you ticked both boxes or neither.

That's akin to a cis person saying of a transwoman who responded to the gender question the way you did - "You'd have to be pretty screwed up if when you came to the "gender" box, you ticked female when obviously, you're a man."
People can disagree, but I have to wonder if this is a form of transphobia.


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BaronHarkonnen85
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22 Apr 2017, 8:23 pm

Gender has to be rooted in biology, even if not the same as biological sex. It's really more of an expression of sex. So one can Trans and identify as the opposite sex. But there are only two sexes, and thus, only two genders.

Saying gender isn't rooted in biology makes the term ultimately meaningless. That's why tumblites come up with all sorts of made up genders: non-binary, agender, trigender, etc.

In fact, prior to the work of John Money, gender was largely a linguistic term. Many languages have gendered nouns and the like. John Money became famous (or infamous) with the David Reimer case. Reimer lost his penis in a botched circumcision as a baby, so Money was brought in. Money decided that David would be raised as a girl.

The case ended in disaster, and Money's idea of a blank slate gender was seemingly discredited. Reimer grew up to live as a man before committing suicide.

Gender, though not the same as biological sex, is rooted in biology. Gender is determined by biology, not social constructions. It's important not the confuse gender itself with gender roles. Some gender roles are socially constructed (methods of dress, makeup, etc), but many of them (like child-rearing) are largely determined by biology.

Completely divorcing gender from sex is pointless at best and harmful at worst. I lean towards the latter. That is why we see all these non-binary transtrenders out there who probably don't even have real dysphoria.


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23 Apr 2017, 10:19 pm

A few of my good friends are enbies, as well as one of my favorite musicians (Genesis P-Orridge of Throbbing Gristle). I don't really get it, but I treat them with the same respect that I expect from others.



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07 May 2017, 9:58 am

I identify as "agendered."

I am not "screwed-up." :roll:


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