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WhiteRaven_214
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16 Aug 2009, 10:33 am

For the past few years, in my spare time, I have been scrawling out a series of themes, plots, setings and characters for a scienc fiction novel.

I have spent much, much time and heavy thought developing this novel, trying to create an "original" story, based on the experience of personal, local, international and historical events. What makes me really crazy is that, often, a large part part of (or whole of) the themes, plots, settings and characters that I've created independantly have already been done by another person or production, and is part of a well known, popular or cult book, comic , movie or TV serial, without my prior knowledge. That is, until I stumble upon it unwittingly upon the internet.

I curse myself for wasting time on this "thought process", knowing that I would have been better off jerking off. I then put aside the drawing or manuscript that I had been working on (in some box never to be seen again), and start afresh.

I make more "new" ideas on a story, and they're amazing. Good, great, woo hoo! And then I find out that these ideas have already been used by another popular sci-fi story. Again. And the cycle repeats itself.

Some of you must be thinking why I am worrying about independently making plots, characters and themes that are vaguely similar, more or less, to what is already out there in literature, comics and the small and big screen. There are three (3).

1) Ego.
I spend up to many months creating what seems to be amazing an new ideas to write. It totally screws me to find that someone else has already made up that idea, and has distributed it in commercial quantities. For me, this is the purpose of writing a story - to create original ideas, based on current, and possible future, dilemas that are to be placed upon human society, from science, technology and nature - for myself and others to think and poder upon.

2) Reader reaction.
If I create something that I find is "interesting", "original" and "new", and the readers are already aware of something that uses very similar - or the same - ideas, they probably won't appreciate the story, cover it with labels ( ie. "ehhww, this character's a John Crichton clone", "this setting's from such-and-such a Planetes episode"; "that plot's an Asimov rip-off!", etc), and in general will find it boring or a stink to read.

3) Copyright.
Nothing's new anymore, is it? So why not copy it as "inspiration"?

Not when big business and big money is involved! I have done some research on plagiarism in non-fiction. If you take a plot, character (or a near-exact profile of a character) or setting from another peice of work to add it to your own, you may find yourself being scheduled to an appointment with the big-wigs, to be sued for royalties and loss of income from jealous writers and money-hungry media corporations.

This is something with which I would never want to do. However I am paranoid of the following situation: it is extremely rare, but still possible, for a writer or producer to be charged with plagiarism from another writer or producer, for a work to which they are not aware of, if the two works are close enough to each other. The writer or producer may be accused of something known as "unintentional plagiarism", or plagiarism due to ignorance and sloppiness, and it can be very hard for the accused writer or producer to disprove it.

One of two things may have occured for this situation to occur, if the accused party is innocent: The writer/producer may have read or seen the other work in question a long while ago, and has forgotten it, but at the same time has unconsciously recalled much of the story and has subsequently 'imprinted' it into his/her own story. Scary stuff. I think there is even a medical term for this phenomonon - but it makes you wonder whether your thoughts are really your own! 8O

The alternative is, that both writers/producers, in a twist of fate, have had a similar streams of thought or experience, in order to create plots, themes and characters thatt are nearly the same, at similar points in time, independently. This is similar to the phenomenom encountered in science or medicine where two scientists (ie Newton/Leibniz) or doctors (ie Kanner/Asperger) discover the same thing at similar points in time, independently.

Yeah, things can get REAL complicated when money and ownership of ideas are involved.



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16 Aug 2009, 12:14 pm

Supposedly, there are only 8 'stories' out there. Even the Bible says 'there's nothing new under the sun.' Coming up with something so fresh and original that no one's ever done it before is very unlikely.

I think you might take into consideration the intent, in plagarism. If you knowingly copy something, you can get in trouble. This is why bands, writers, etc., are not allowed to see story ideas, no matter how good. It's a strange situation.

Some things are done over and over again. James Bond movies are like haiku, they're so rigid; daring escape before the credits, spy meets girl, bad guy, bad guy kills first girl, Bond gets mad, meets 2nd girl who turns traitor after a romp in the sheets with Bond, Bond gets trapped, escapes, gets girl, thunderous explosions, gets caught with pants down by the boss...;)

Or Romance; boy meets girl, they like each other, almost get together, some misunderstanding, boy and girl 'hate' each other, realize they can't do without each other, get together shortly before the closing credits.

You can do this for any genre. The trick is to make the story yours; play against 'stereotype', mix two plot elements together that seem unlikely, use some of your life experiences, etc. Write what you know.

Use original names, places, etc. Read with an editorial eye; see if you can spot familiar themes in books you read, etc. Heck, if they got away with it, there's nothing that says you can't use what you have.



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16 Aug 2009, 12:28 pm

i doubt youll get into copyright trouble for writing a story similar to others.

its impossible not to.

lets take ANY new movie:
like the new batman movie, stolen ideas

1. lone hero
2. insane bad boss
3. romance
4. high-tech vehicles
5. dark gothic environment

etc etc etc

what im more worried about, myself is:

1. that people will find my stories confusing and difficult to follow
2. theyll simply be disgusted by it

yesterday i read about a slightly provocational book i once read, a norwegian book.
its apparently one of the most controversial and debated book in modern norwegian history, and its "graphic scenarios" are, seriously, NOTHING, compared to what i just wrote, and hope to publish :D
i know this should be good, but i actually worry. peoples sensitivity and stupid emotions may ultimately ruin my dream of publishing my books.


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16 Aug 2009, 12:48 pm

ZEGH8578 wrote:
yesterday i read about a slightly provocational book i once read, a norwegian book.
its apparently one of the most controversial and debated book in modern norwegian history, and its "graphic scenarios" are, seriously, NOTHING, compared to what i just wrote, and hope to publish :D
i know this should be good, but i actually worry. peoples sensitivity and stupid emotions may ultimately ruin my dream of publishing my books.


That's why I enjoy working in the horror genre - the nature of the beast actually encourages you to push the 'shock' envelope. King 'goes for the gross-out' occasionally; Clive Barker likes to pummel the reader with it mercilessly. Creepy chills and heart-racing anticipation are what you shoot for, but if the reader doesn't have at least a few moments when they want to throw the book across the room and exclaim "Eeeww - that's disgusting!", then I haven't done my job right. :twisted:

In any case, I agree, there are no new stories - only novel recombinations of character and situation. Just look at George Lucas - Every single element of all the Star Wars films is cobbled together from classic Greek, Roman, Egyptian and Hindu mythology - you could time-travel to any point in human history and find audiences would respond the same way to that story. Man ran out of truly new plots while we were still telling tall tales huddled in bearskins around the campfire. You can still make it your own. The devils are in the details. :wink:



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16 Aug 2009, 1:13 pm

Willard wrote:
ZEGH8578 wrote:
yesterday i read about a slightly provocational book i once read, a norwegian book.
its apparently one of the most controversial and debated book in modern norwegian history, and its "graphic scenarios" are, seriously, NOTHING, compared to what i just wrote, and hope to publish :D
i know this should be good, but i actually worry. peoples sensitivity and stupid emotions may ultimately ruin my dream of publishing my books.


That's why I enjoy working in the horror genre - the nature of the beast actually encourages you to push the 'shock' envelope. King 'goes for the gross-out' occasionally; Clive Barker likes to pummel the reader with it mercilessly. Creepy chills and heart-racing anticipation are what you shoot for, but if the reader doesn't have at least a few moments when they want to throw the book across the room and exclaim "Eeeww - that's disgusting!", then I haven't done my job right. :twisted:

In any case, I agree, there are no new stories - only novel recombinations of character and situation. Just look at George Lucas - Every single element of all the Star Wars films is cobbled together from classic Greek, Roman, Egyptian and Hindu mythology - you could time-travel to any point in human history and find audiences would respond the same way to that story. Man ran out of truly new plots while we were still telling tall tales huddled in bearskins around the campfire. You can still make it your own. The devils are in the details. :wink:


it just amazes me tho, how sensitive people are. the book in question had a scene where the protagonist pushed a cucumber up his ass, for curiousity, and one mentioning of relationships w minors.

THAT, allone, created a huge fuss.
now i didnt write anything sexually shocking like that, but ive done a big effort pushing the offensive-factor. i only found out about that controversy some days ago, how people went into an uproar over so little :D

but it did get published, without problems, and sells well.
so.
hopefully ill simply end up offending tons of people, while still selling the book. victory! :D

and your right about the details, the details and the angle you take and the general "take on the situation" that you go for.
what have i just written? a space story involving wars w aliens, anti-heroes etc etc, ALL the old concepts, but with all my own detailwork.
my "slogan", since i begun writing has been "i wanna make george lucas cry" :D
(as in, i wanna hurt his feelings)


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16 Aug 2009, 1:32 pm

ZEGH8578 wrote:
it just amazes me tho, how sensitive people are. the book in question had a scene where the protagonist pushed a cucumber up his ass, for curiousity, and one mentioning of relationships w minors.


:lmao: :lol: :lmao: That is some damned entertaining curiosity! :lmao: :lol: :lmao:


Humans are so touchy.


! !!DON'T EAT the SALAD!! ! :eew:



:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:



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16 Aug 2009, 1:50 pm

Willard wrote:
ZEGH8578 wrote:
it just amazes me tho, how sensitive people are. the book in question had a scene where the protagonist pushed a cucumber up his ass, for curiousity, and one mentioning of relationships w minors.


:lmao: :lol: :lmao: That is some damned entertaining curiosity! :lmao: :lol: :lmao:


Humans are so touchy.


! !!DON'T EAT the SALAD!! ! :eew:



:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


indeed it is :D i was laughing to TEARS during that scene :D
especially his musings about it, like "i wonder how the store clerc would react if she knew what i was gonna use the cucumber for" and him feeling slightly sorry for the discarded cucumber in the garbage afterwards :D "what a waste" sortof

it was HILARIOUS!! !!
but people got frustrated and angry, stomped their feet in anger, got red pulsating anger-faces, and started yelling and crying, wtf is wrong w people!? :(


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16 Aug 2009, 2:49 pm

I write ideas that fall out of my head for films, and I don't care if I've subconsciously copied, or if I offend or shock anyone with it. If anything controversy would draw my films in, but like I said, it would all be accidental. I don't deliberately write to shock. I just write to see how my world of my own comes out on the big screen. :wink:



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16 Aug 2009, 3:39 pm

Alternative wrote:
I write ideas that fall out of my head for films, and I don't care if I've subconsciously copied, or if I offend or shock anyone with it. If anything controversy would draw my films in, but like I said, it would all be accidental. I don't deliberately write to shock. I just write to see how my world of my own comes out on the big screen. :wink:


i write to shock, cus its my "take" on the sci-fi genre. im dealing w war, and i dont believe for a SECOND those lame-ass star wars "piuu piuu" ray-gun wars.
i want torture, hardcore violence, in a way, i draw inspiration from star wars, liberian civil war, star trek, afghan war, red dwarf, and ww2. if you get my drift :D

i have a humorous and "jolly" style, that i insist "takes place" in a "realistic" environment.

in a movie like star wars, realism is played down in order to sell more.
"lets make the laser rays burn right through their heads, showing smooth rounded tunnels through their heads!"
"NO WAY!! ! My god, nobody would watch the movies!"

i exclude ray guns btw, but thats my "angle" anyway. and in war, well, you get the cruelest of the cruelest situations. i have a "super villain" type character as well, who also takes cruelty to a more "real" level, to the point where his "comedic value" sort of drops a good few steps. in fact, i make sure that all the characters show very cruel and unsympathetic traits, to keep realism up. even churchill was an as*hole towards german civilians during war, you know what i mean :D


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16 Aug 2009, 9:59 pm

Sometimes I think I have scrimfraphinia.


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17 Aug 2009, 12:02 pm

ZEGH8578 wrote:

i write to shock, cus its my "take" on the sci-fi genre. im dealing w war, and i dont believe for a SECOND those lame-ass star wars "piuu piuu" ray-gun wars.
i want torture, hardcore violence, in a way, i draw inspiration from star wars, liberian civil war, star trek, afghan war, red dwarf, and ww2. if you get my drift :D

i have a humorous and "jolly" style, that i insist "takes place" in a "realistic" environment.

in a movie like star wars, realism is played down in order to sell more.
"lets make the laser rays burn right through their heads, showing smooth rounded tunnels through their heads!"
"NO WAY!! ! My god, nobody would watch the movies!"

i exclude ray guns btw, but thats my "angle" anyway. and in war, well, you get the cruelest of the cruelest situations. i have a "super villain" type character as well, who also takes cruelty to a more "real" level, to the point where his "comedic value" sort of drops a good few steps. in fact, i make sure that all the characters show very cruel and unsympathetic traits, to keep realism up. even churchill was an as*hole towards german civilians during war, you know what i mean :D


You sir are a God. :D



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20 Aug 2009, 12:06 am

I totally reject the idea that there are 8 or any number of stories, that just get re-written.
It's bollocks, really...

Look at my favorite, HPL, did he ever do 'boy meets monster, monster destroys boy's mind?' Well, come to think of it, he did ...
But what about Poe, eh? The Pit and the Pendulum, pigeon-hole that one ....


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25 Aug 2009, 7:38 pm

WhiteRaven_214 wrote:
For the past few years, in my spare time, I have been scrawling out a series of themes, plots, setings and characters for a scienc fiction novel.

I have spent much, much time and heavy thought developing this novel, trying to create an "original" story, based on the experience of personal, local, international and historical events. What makes me really crazy is that, often, a large part part of (or whole of) the themes, plots, settings and characters that I've created independantly have already been done by another person or production, and is part of a well known, popular or cult book, comic , movie or TV serial, without my prior knowledge. That is, until I stumble upon it unwittingly upon the internet.

I curse myself for wasting time on this "thought process", knowing that I would have been better off jerking off. I then put aside the drawing or manuscript that I had been working on (in some box never to be seen again), and start afresh.

I make more "new" ideas on a story, and they're amazing. Good, great, woo hoo! And then I find out that these ideas have already been used by another popular sci-fi story. Again. And the cycle repeats itself.

Some of you must be thinking why I am worrying about independently making plots, characters and themes that are vaguely similar, more or less, to what is already out there in literature, comics and the small and big screen. There are three (3).

1) Ego.
I spend up to many months creating what seems to be amazing an new ideas to write. It totally screws me to find that someone else has already made up that idea, and has distributed it in commercial quantities. For me, this is the purpose of writing a story - to create original ideas, based on current, and possible future, dilemas that are to be placed upon human society, from science, technology and nature - for myself and others to think and poder upon.

2) Reader reaction.
If I create something that I find is "interesting", "original" and "new", and the readers are already aware of something that uses very similar - or the same - ideas, they probably won't appreciate the story, cover it with labels ( ie. "ehhww, this character's a John Crichton clone", "this setting's from such-and-such a Planetes episode"; "that plot's an Asimov rip-off!", etc), and in general will find it boring or a stink to read.

3) Copyright.
Nothing's new anymore, is it? So why not copy it as "inspiration"?

Not when big business and big money is involved! I have done some research on plagiarism in non-fiction. If you take a plot, character (or a near-exact profile of a character) or setting from another peice of work to add it to your own, you may find yourself being scheduled to an appointment with the big-wigs, to be sued for royalties and loss of income from jealous writers and money-hungry media corporations.

This is something with which I would never want to do. However I am paranoid of the following situation: it is extremely rare, but still possible, for a writer or producer to be charged with plagiarism from another writer or producer, for a work to which they are not aware of, if the two works are close enough to each other. The writer or producer may be accused of something known as "unintentional plagiarism", or plagiarism due to ignorance and sloppiness, and it can be very hard for the accused writer or producer to disprove it.

One of two things may have occured for this situation to occur, if the accused party is innocent: The writer/producer may have read or seen the other work in question a long while ago, and has forgotten it, but at the same time has unconsciously recalled much of the story and has subsequently 'imprinted' it into his/her own story. Scary stuff. I think there is even a medical term for this phenomonon - but it makes you wonder whether your thoughts are really your own! 8O

The alternative is, that both writers/producers, in a twist of fate, have had a similar streams of thought or experience, in order to create plots, themes and characters thatt are nearly the same, at similar points in time, independently. This is similar to the phenomenom encountered in science or medicine where two scientists (ie Newton/Leibniz) or doctors (ie Kanner/Asperger) discover the same thing at similar points in time, independently.

Yeah, things can get REAL complicated when money and ownership of ideas are involved.


Hmm.... Seems to me you are having writer's paranoia.

Here's a tip that helps me when someone already wrote something before me: Take a theme, concept, or story and use a variation of it.

Let's take Eragon for instance (even though I despise it for ripping off Star Wars and many other great works.) Maybe instead of having the Varden and Empire fight for Eragon, have a group of females and a group of males battle each other by doing a scavenger hunt in a city, equip them with water guns (or wooden swords if you like) and have them shoot each other or duel when one player meets another player. Make up the game rules (i.e. how many points the players gain if they find the each item, what item and how many points do they lose if the other player wins their item during a duel, what power-up does each item grant the user, etc.) Tell it in either one of the males or females perspective. Then let a ruby be Eragon. The player who obtains Eragon get's a huge number of points. In the end let the team who has the most points win. You don't use the same plot as Eragon or Star Wars. Don't use the same character's either, though you can use stock characters if you want too.

I can give you others:

The Great Gatsby: instead of having one guy trying to woo a woman, have it set in biblical times where a man tries to search for a treasure, finds it, but ultimately gets robbed by another man then later gets smote by God because his wife having an affair with another guy.

A Tale of Two Cities: instead of having the story taking place of the French Revolution and Sydney Carton sacrificing his life to save Lucy, have a woman from the future go to the the 22nd century during World War III and sacrifice her life to save her ancestor killed in the war to expand her family tree.

Macbeth: instead of having a Thane killing the Duncan and become king and later die because of his corruption, have a peasant girl steal the company from the CEO and scandalize people until finally one of the people blows the whistle (tell on the company) and gets her removed.

As you can see, all we did was took a story, twisted it into a variation of it, and there we go--an original story. Note we just used the theme or concept behind Eragon and the other stories. Noticing on the variation was the easy part, using your imagination to create a variation takes some more work, but it's worth it.

One thing to make sure of: although this method seems to be derivative and lack originality, it doesn't. Sometimes I use this method when I'm having trouble figuring out what story to write. Make the characters your own.

I guess the best place to make a variation of a concept or theme is to use Grimm's Fairy Tales or Hans Christian Andersen's Complete Fairy Tales and Stories. Since there's a lot of stories, concepts, and themes in both books, I think it can suit you. Or course, you can do a parody of theses stories, but it takes a lot of wit to do that. Or you can do what ifs. Like What if Little Red Riding hood, instead of bringing goodies, was bringing a pack of chemicals to her grandma's house to destroy the forest for the woodcutter to use for fire and the wolf was the only one who can stop her? Or what if the witch was a good witch after all and fattened Hansel just opened the oven just to cook her chicken when she actually wanted to take him to a magical place where aging stopped and fun lasted an eternity. Something like taht can work for your stories. No one would think of doing that.

So you see, taking a theme actually creates a highly original story. You just took the story's concept or theme and made it your own. TO me, it's easier to make stories by this method than making it form scratch because making it from scratch you have to create a concept, and how many concepts can you think at one time? Also when you read a story with a different concept you have a concept added to your inventory.

pakled wrote:

Quote:
The trick is to make the story yours; play against 'stereotype', mix two plot elements together that seem unlikely, use some of your life experiences, etc. Write what you know.


I think that makes a lot of sense, pakled. There's one more thin that can make your work your own--your voice. Only by being yourself will you have the courage to write a story like no one else.

Hope this helps!



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25 Aug 2009, 11:20 pm

Actually the cucumber bit was emotionally not too different from the incident in "Portnoy's Complaint" where he masturbates with a piece of liver before the family eats it for dinner.



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26 Aug 2009, 12:05 am

What if ....

What if the Wicked Witch of the West wasn't really so wicked, she was just trying to stay alive because Glinda was power mad and bent on being the ruler of Oz? So bent in fact that she actually opened a portal just to bring Dorothy in so as to kill the Wicked Witch Witch of the East with plausible deniabliity? What if Dorothy's 'friends' were actually wizards who had given up their human bodies in exchange for bodies which would never die? And that they were placed by Glinda so as to help Dorothy 'accidently' kill the Wicked Witch of the West and out the Wizard ???


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26 Aug 2009, 1:14 am

Although much pseudo scientific science fiction masquerades as real science fiction, much of Star Trek and certainly Star Wars are just fairy tales or morality plays infused with pseudo science to replace magic and make them seem more current. The old Astounding Science-Fiction back in the 1930's and 1940's were the real stuff and there are still areas today where it persists. Like Brave New World or 1984 or much of H.G.Welles great novels they were based on the "what if?" concept and great things can come of simple penetrating thoughts in the area. Ursula Le Guinne's great novel The Left Hand of Darkness was drawn from the simple idea that people could change sex from male to female like some fish. But an idea is not great writing. Just suppose that:

People could transform into intelligent trees and live for hundreds of years rooted and gaining energy from sunlight but retaining intelligence and the ability to communicate and forests become sort of minor gods.
Animals could meld together and become joint fish and people.

Dolphins have a true civilization somewhere and decide to fight humanity to save the Earth.

Aliens arrive that are very intelligent and advanced but are not interested in humanity at all and deal with plants or insects.

Robots develop super intelligence and treat humans as smart pets.

The Earth as Gaia revolts against humanity's destructions and develops earthquakes and hurricanes to fight humanity and a group of scientists take up the challenge and try to dominate the planet.

Ideas are endless but good writing is something else. That you have to develop from your own guts.