Growing up and done with bad boys

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It's human nature. If you give and give and don't get a damn in return, you get frustrated.

Definitely. That's why I don't want to be friends with women I might find attractive, and that's why I'll always refuse to provide emotional support to women who aren't members of my family. If it's men looking for emotional support, I'm there - they usually have actual problems. Usually, when they have trouble, it's not about them picking the wrong person to have sex with, then ending up not being cared about.

That's the difference between the guy who talked to me when his father had been found unconscious after an overdose, and the girl who tried to talk people into feeling sorry for her because she had second thoughts about her boyfriend.

I just give them a stern "I'm not one of your girlfriends" talk, and leave if they insist on trying to cry on my shoulder.

What about a girl who wants to talk about her troubled father? What's the difference then?

Never happened to me before. I'd be a bit more lenient than I would if it was about her troubled boyfriend.

I may be completely wrong about this, but it seems to me that there could be some misconceptions and stereotyping of bad boys and nice guys. I don't think everybody is seeing only stereotypes, but I do want to point this out.

Not all bad boys are good looking and not all nice guys are below average. I've met many nice guys who work out and have a good body and who aren't glow in the dark pale or have bad skin. All nice guys are not socially inept. All nice guys aren't boring, and life with a nice guy can be fun and exciting. Just because you aren't always worried about cops showing up or whether or not he can pass a drug test for his probation officer doesn't mean it's boring. Nice guys aren't only interested in video games or computers or sitting in their parents basement talking to you about comic books.

I am saying this because I do think that people tend to stereotype in extremes. People may think that bad boys all have good/fast/loud/etc cars or that all have lots of sexual experience and are very good in bed (no, they are NOT all very good in bed - I've heard some stories that would make you weep) or that they are all good looking. Not all nice guys are just "losers" whose dream date is taking a girl to Comicon or something and who girls wouldn't go out with unless they either "settled" or had a specific shared interest that most people do not share.

There are nice guys in bands, there are nice guys that participate in sports, there are nice guys in great shape who are awesome looking, there are nice guys with a wide variety of interests, there are nice guys with lots of dating experience and nice guys with lots of sexual experience, and nice guys who don't just wait around for a girl to agree to date them and who aren't bitter towards women. There are nice guys who are so hot they will make your hair curl just looking at them.

There are bad boys who girls with an ounce of sense wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole, and bad boys who couldn't get a date to save their lives.

There are frat boys who aren't jackasses and rich guys who don't only care about money and aren't stuckup and artistic guys who aren't artsy snobs and smart guys who aren't nerds who never leave the house in the daylight.

Again, I don't think that everybody here thinks in these stereotypes but I do think that some people do. When someone says that girls will settle for the nice guy after she's had her fun with the bad boys, it makes me think that they are assuming that the bad boys are all good looking, fun on dates, making it rain on her all the time, and just a whirlwind of fun and excitement until it all suddenly goes bad and that she then goes to the other type of guy out there, like the "losers" who haven't ever had a date and wouldn't know how to get one unless a desperate girl initiated conversation and then asked them out.

I also don't think that changing your mind about what you want is settling. There are girls who date nice guys exclusively at first and then switch to the bad boys because they have more in common with them. A lot of times, younger girls do have more in common with the bad boys than the nice guys. A lot of times the bad boys do turn into nice guys as they get older and it can go the opposite way too, with a nice guy turning into a bad boy.

Many times when a girl is in her early 20s, her focus is more on just going out and having fun but as she gets older and wants to settle down she finds that a lot of the guys she's been dating either don't want to settle down or don't have the ability to. Her interests change and so she wants to find a guy who shares her interests and goals. That is far from settling. It's like switching from a one room apartmant in the middle of a large and busy city to a house in the suburbs. Someone who has no kids and doesn't spend a lot of time at home would do fine with the small apartment in the city, but when they wanted to start having a family and spending more time at home and needing more space there for their interests and comfort they need the house in the suburbs. Neither is better than the other, it's just what the particular person wants or needs at a particular stage in life. Most people don't just turn 18 and have one set of wants and needs and personality traits and stay that way for life. People change throughout life. What makes them happy changes too. It's not settling if you are going for who and what you want. It's only settling if you can't get what you want anymore so you go with your second choice.

But they managed to get laid with desired women. Finding out what they have in common is one step towards getting laid with desired women.



I knew a 'nice guy' who liked drinking, sports, was highly-educated, and relatively socially capable. But women didn't like him at all, because he was too easy-going. A pacifist. Women hate practical pacifists. He complained that 'women only like jerks'. Some women say they like pacifists - but only the type that's against theoretical, abstract wars. When it's about actual violent situations, he should take charge and use any type of violence necessary. That, like most things in nice guy lore, is evolutionary - he should be able to defend her and their offspring. You can be a pacifist, but you can't be a coward when things get beyond abstract.

In effect, women saying they like 'a pacifist' are simply saying "I want to hear my political opinion in a deeper voice, but don't you dare making that a three-dimensional thing."



Welcome to my world.



Personally, I don't - but these stereotypes make the discussion a lot easier. It means I don't have to spend three-quarters of a page fine-tuning and nuancing everything in every post I make.



It's not that black-and-white. However, a pattern I've noticed is that the moment women see their current path has a dead end isn't the moment they act upon that knowledge. They keep chasing men who are exciting, because they're not old enough to worry yet. The moment they start changing their actions is the moment they're really getting too old for it. The moment they'd be seen for someone's mother while smoking pot with him. At that moment, I think they're damaged goods and shouldn't have too many demands. "Settle for a poet"? At that moment in time, a lot of them would be lucky to find anyone literate willing to settle for them. The wealthy, tall and handsome poets, by the time a woman reaches 30, will lose interest and prefer her younger sister. That's evolution - men look for the best mother for their children - one who has a long life ahead, and is physically attractive and capable of giving birth.



Translation into stereotype: whore it out, then find someone desperate enough with more than a semi-decent living standard. I'm disinterested in women who have had too many sexual partners, and there's no chance in hell I'd consider dating a woman if it meant taking care of, or providing for, another man's children. That's evolutionary defeat. I'd prefer staying alone until I'm 40 and wealthy, then getting into the market for women in their 20s.

To me, it seems like the difference is that she's a girl. Therefore, she must have some ulterior motive to try to grind puny male egos into the dirt or deny sex. And wasn't it already stated above that there is no point in treating a girl with kindness or respect (ae giving her something) unless you think she will give you sex?

I agree with the above post (by oliveoil mom) about the ambiguity of the "bad boy" image. In my opinion, bad boys are men or boys who view women as objects, exploit or manipulate them, and who may hold misogynistic beliefs.

So by my definition, a lot of the posts on this thread actually sound "bad boyish."

I don't even think being a "bad boy" has to do with dominance or alpha maleness--I know very dominant males who are also super nice and not at all bad to women. And obviously, there are much less dominant males with a lot less luck with women who have qualities that I identify as "bad."

Maybe we all don't agree with the "bad boy" image--the OP had them cheating on her--I think that's what made them bad, not the fact that they smoked pot ect. (if they did).

Think of a "bad boy" as someone who always considers his value as higher than the woman's.

There are plenty of bad boys that can find partners and there are plenty of nice guys/geeks/whatever that can find partners.
Why? they tried to work on themselves and they didnt blame the rest of the world for their own problems.

Im going to provide an example out of this very board.

When I joined there was a user that created quite a prolific thread about why guys hated overweight girls.
Said user admitted to have: self stem issues/ problems when interacting with family members and a bunch of other things Im probably missing.

Said user spent quite a while moping around this boards with people trying to give her advice that was usually addressed as undoable due to location.
After a while quite a lot of people stopped giving her advice because she just wanted to be told that the world sucks.

At some point she started trying to work on the issues I mentioned above.
She tried to find some reason to be proud of herself, tried to work her differences with her family...
Guess what said user is now in a happy relationship with someone.
She is still not happy with her self image but she is working on it and thats what really matters.

So my question to anyone on this thread that feels unwanted is: what are you doing to work on yourself?.


Last year I was unable to approach most girls I found remotely attractive and none of them approached me(lets just say that I actively made that happen with some of my choices but that belongs to another topic).
This week Im forcing myself to meet new people. Why? I was told that a group of us citizens have just arrived and they are leaving in a week so its a great chance to work on myself. How is it going? Not going to lie to anyone Im trying to stick around the few people I already knew in the place but yesterday I managed to have an interesting convo/fb exchange with a female.
Is it going to go anywhere? No. She is leaving this saturday and there are strong religious differences. Why did I bother exchanging fb and whatnot then? to prove myself that I could do it.
She asked me to come back today so I probably will and I´ll make a point to approach some new people as well to show myself that I can do this(making one acquaintance in 4 hours at a place where they encourage you to meet people is hardly a success)

Last year I was talking with an acquaintance and he said do I have you on fb? to which I replied that he had his laptop open at one class and asked for my fb so I gave it to him.
We began talking about how easily people give away their details and I realized that I made a great deal out of something that was quite simple.
Since then I make a point of asking people I care about for some contact info asap regardless of their gender. Just to show myself that if they say no(which has happened a few times) its not the end of the world.

How is this relevant to this thread in any way?
I used to be avoided by people now girls are approaching me at the subway/other places(now I just need to work on being approached by those that are about my age instead of 16). Last week I was half sleep at the city centre and I was approached by someone who spoke a language I didnt understand, eventually I figured out what they were asking and I replied accordingly. They could have asked anyone else but they saw that I was going to be willing to help even though I didnt understand them at the time and I was half sleep ...

Attitude goes a long way and your attitude is showing through your posts.

And to recap my arguement:

Women aren't attracted to bad boys. It's more complicated.

Men who have qualities of being exploitative and abusive have likely had these personality traits ingrained in them---so in order for these men to function in society they have to develop numerous manipulation skills and the ability to hide their "badness." Otherwise people would kick them to the curb immediately and they wouldn't be able to exploit anyone.

Many of them might be on the spectrum of psychopathy or sociopathy. Faulting a woman who gets taken by a skilled psychopath is like faulting Jeffery Dahmer's neighbors for thinking he was a nice guy, or his murder victims for being "attracted" to serial killers.

It's just not about that. It's that he was an excellent manipulator and was able to manipulate everyone.

It's possible that the women who stay with bad boys or repeat relationships with them have been abused or exploited in their childhoods, so they normalize that behavior. But that's far from "being attracted to" bad boys. What's attractive about misogyny and exploitation?

Why do you feel the need to assume that bad boys are all manipulators, or good manipulators. Let alone on the spectrum of psychopathy? I've seen no evidence to back this conclusion unless you take the word of the people on lovefraud. Also the leap from "might be on the spectrum" to "skilled sociopath" is something you neglected to lay the groundwork for.

I think its more likely, that "bad boys" have a collection of traits that certain women like, assertive, confident, self-assured, alpha qualities etc, than they are all sociopaths or manipulators. Secondly, it's not about misogyny and exploitation, its about as I said, confidence, the fact that the man expects the woman to qualify herself to him (opposite of normal social protocol), isn't needy and so on.

i swear theres got to be a f*****g echo around here

If people stopped coming up with rationalizations to avoid the truth, I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

http://suite101.com/article/why-are-bad ... er-a372935 is interesting.

As is http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles ... he-bad-boy

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/val ... e-assholes is very interesting.

This is not meant as an insult or as a personal attack. I'm truly wondering how, with the attitude that you just throw out about women, you think you would actually get the really hot, sexually unexperienced woman in her 20s even if you were rich? The attitude will show itself even if you don't say those offensive things to or around the woman you are wanting to go out with. Bitterness shows and it's one of the most unnattractive qualities in a man. The type of woman that you (or anybody) would want to settle down with wouldn't think so little of herself that she would date a man who looks down his nose at women for ridiculous and shallow reasons. Do you plan on changing or hiding your attitude and feelings about women when you do get in the market? You seem to have a lot against the "bad boys" because they get the desired women, who lots of times do have a lot of sexual experience. If you wouldn't want a woman with sexual experience then why do you even care that they go out with other guys?