THIS ISN'T THE ELLIOT ROGERS FORUM!! !

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Toy_Soldier
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28 May 2014, 5:55 am

What made this more immediate was the possible connection of the killer having Aspergers, though I am not at this point sure that is true. I have heard it both stated he was diagnosed, and also stated it was just the parents suspicion.

People have to process this thing in different ways, and for some that means talking about it. I think for us here, that it is best they can do so, rather then have to keep it locked up inside.



Geekonychus
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28 May 2014, 9:30 am

SoftwareEngineer wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
People say that I just need to be confident, change clothes, take steroids, etc. Sometimes, I get the feeling I have to be an utterly psychopathic barbarian just to please someone of the opposite sex. Ruthless, callous, vicious. After all, they get ahead in society.


son, i'm sorry but i think your timing is really atrocious in creating this thread. perhaps now is not the time to be publicly lamenting your datelessness. find something else to think about for a while until this recent shooting is not so fresh in people's minds, maybe?

edit* to add: i'm not trying to be mean--i know loneliness is no fun for anyone, i have been there myself. it's just really bad timing.


The exchange above is from "How do I really get a girl?" in the Love and Dating sub-Forum. Clearly, this has become the Elliot Rodgers sub-forum. And, clearly, it is not a place where love and dating is considered an appropriate subject, by at least one user. How can a young man who wants a girlfriend be treated this way? Remember, these feelings are common among men and women on the spectrum. They come here to deal with those feelings. This is the place to help with advise and coping, not inflict shame. And certainly, not assign the shame of a mass murderer.

Post note: Many have speculated about the possibility that Elliot Rodgers may have been a member here. Well, consider this - What if Elliot Rodgers had come here seeking the help and support of other autistics? What if two years ago, he had posted to L&D a request for help and some assurances? Maybe, the outcome would have been different. Maybe, he would have spent the last two years with the feeling that some people understood and cared. Myself, I still wouldn't be surprised if many factors in the murders went far beyond anything we see in the video - we don't know for sure. But still, why discourage someone who wants a bit of help and encouragement getting a proper mindset and attitude?

Further note: You know, perhaps Elliot Rodgers really did come here asking for help. What if the investigation turns up a WP user name? What if his posts and the responses he received end up on TV news? What if the mother of one of the dead victims asks into the camera "Why didn't you help him? He asked for help. You could have helped him. Why did you treat him that way?"


So now it's our fault? Not enough to blame the victims (who did nothing wrong), the parents (who actually tried to get help for there son, unlike in most similair instances), now hypothetically we're the cause because we didn't simpathize with his women-hating attitude. At what point does this miserable, violent little narcasist become responsible for his own actions?



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28 May 2014, 10:41 am

Hopper wrote:
SoftwareEngineer wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
People say that I just need to be confident, change clothes, take steroids, etc. Sometimes, I get the feeling I have to be an utterly psychopathic barbarian just to please someone of the opposite sex. Ruthless, callous, vicious. After all, they get ahead in society.


son, i'm sorry but i think your timing is really atrocious in creating this thread. perhaps now is not the time to be publicly lamenting your datelessness. find something else to think about for a while until this recent shooting is not so fresh in people's minds, maybe?

edit* to add: i'm not trying to be mean--i know loneliness is no fun for anyone, i have been there myself. it's just really bad timing.


The exchange above is from "How do I really get a girl?" in the Love and Dating sub-Forum. Clearly, this has become the Elliot Rodgers sub-forum. And, clearly, it is not a place where love and dating is considered an appropriate subject, by at least one user. How can a young man who wants a girlfriend be treated this way? Remember, these feelings are common among men and women on the spectrum. They come here to deal with those feelings. This is the place to help with advise and coping, not inflict shame. And certainly, not assign the shame of a mass murderer.

Post note: Many have speculated about the possibility that Elliot Rodgers may have been a member here. Well, consider this - What if Elliot Rodgers had come here seeking the help and support of other autistics? What if two years ago, he had posted to L&D a request for help and some assurances? Maybe, the outcome would have been different. Maybe, he would have spent the last two years with the feeling that some people understood and cared. Myself, I still wouldn't be surprised if many factors in the murders went far beyond anything we see in the video - we don't know for sure. But still, why discourage someone who wants a bit of help and encouragement getting a proper mindset and attitude?

Further note: You know, perhaps Elliot Rodgers really did come here asking for help. What if the investigation turns up a WP user name? What if his posts and the responses he received end up on TV news? What if the mother of one of the dead victims asks into the camera "Why didn't you help him? He asked for help. You could have helped him. Why did you treat him that way?"



The only way to help a man who thinks he is entitled to the affections and bodies of women is to tell him that he isn't. To try and explain to him why he isn't. And aside from the ethics of the matter, it would genuinely help, be a soothing realisation for the man in question, would actually make them happier. Where one feels entitled to something, but doesn't have that something, the fault is with the world, or the something in question. There is a perplexed anger that one does not have what one surely should. This is the difference between wanting something and feeling entitled.

Now, I happen to not think I'm entitled to such. If I came asking for romantic advice, I would take it through the understanding that women are people, and individuals, and no individual is in any way obligated to have any kind of interest in me. Viewed like this, the world meets my expectations, and a good number of times exceeds them. If I were to think I am entitled to everyone's interest, the world would (of course) constantly disappoint. And as I am entitled, the fault lies with the world. I am being deliberately deprived. Etc.

What help do you think Rodger wanted? What help do you think he would have listened to? What help do you think actually would have helped him?


The video clearly shows an individual with cumulative anger, frustration, distorted thinking, and the resulting criminal state of mind which developed over a period of time. At the time the video was made, there wasn't much to be done, but earlier, maybe. Perhaps, at an earlier point, something seemingly small could have turned the tide. Of course, perhaps the tide was going in a different direction and something harsh turned a plea for help into cause for shame, redirecting that tide. Questioning what any individual person wants, what that individual would listen to, and how that individual would actually be helped by, is really a much broader question about why Wrong Planet exists, why this forum exists, and why people with the common challenges of autism congregate here - we all know the practical challenges of autism reach far beyond the disorder itself. You really missed the point of the scenario. I'm not asking you to consider the effects on the criminal as much as the victims and their families. You can't have victims of a crime, without a crime. And, you can't have a crime, without a criminal. When you help an individual to avoid developing into a criminal, you save the victims, plus you save their families from the affects. Sometimes, there is a seemingly small, but decisive moment when things could have been different. Remember, there is the real possibility a similar media event, as depicted in the scenario, will take place. At this point, we aren't deciding if that will happen - others are in control. The investigation and analysis will continue for a long time. The scenario below is valid, simply because it's truly plausible, if not inevitable.

Perhaps, Elliot Rodgers really did come to Wrong Planet asking for help. What if the investigation turns up a Wrong Planet user name? What if his posts and the responses he received from other Wrong Planet users end up on TV news, in book, or in a movie? What if the tearful mother of one of the dead victims asks "Why didn't you help him? He asked for help. You could have helped him. Why did you treat him that way?"



Last edited by SoftwareEngineer on 28 May 2014, 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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28 May 2014, 10:55 am

Geekonychus wrote:
SoftwareEngineer wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
People say that I just need to be confident, change clothes, take steroids, etc. Sometimes, I get the feeling I have to be an utterly psychopathic barbarian just to please someone of the opposite sex. Ruthless, callous, vicious. After all, they get ahead in society.


son, i'm sorry but i think your timing is really atrocious in creating this thread. perhaps now is not the time to be publicly lamenting your datelessness. find something else to think about for a while until this recent shooting is not so fresh in people's minds, maybe?

edit* to add: i'm not trying to be mean--i know loneliness is no fun for anyone, i have been there myself. it's just really bad timing.


The exchange above is from "How do I really get a girl?" in the Love and Dating sub-Forum. Clearly, this has become the Elliot Rodgers sub-forum. And, clearly, it is not a place where love and dating is considered an appropriate subject, by at least one user. How can a young man who wants a girlfriend be treated this way? Remember, these feelings are common among men and women on the spectrum. They come here to deal with those feelings. This is the place to help with advise and coping, not inflict shame. And certainly, not assign the shame of a mass murderer.

Post note: Many have speculated about the possibility that Elliot Rodgers may have been a member here. Well, consider this - What if Elliot Rodgers had come here seeking the help and support of other autistics? What if two years ago, he had posted to L&D a request for help and some assurances? Maybe, the outcome would have been different. Maybe, he would have spent the last two years with the feeling that some people understood and cared. Myself, I still wouldn't be surprised if many factors in the murders went far beyond anything we see in the video - we don't know for sure. But still, why discourage someone who wants a bit of help and encouragement getting a proper mindset and attitude?

Further note: You know, perhaps Elliot Rodgers really did come here asking for help. What if the investigation turns up a WP user name? What if his posts and the responses he received end up on TV news? What if the mother of one of the dead victims asks into the camera "Why didn't you help him? He asked for help. You could have helped him. Why did you treat him that way?"


So now it's our fault? Not enough to blame the victims (who did nothing wrong), the parents (who actually tried to get help for there son, unlike in most similair instances), now hypothetically we're the cause because we didn't simpathize with his women-hating attitude. At what point does this miserable, violent little narcasist become responsible for his own actions?


A miserable, violent little narcissist is always responsible for their own actions. I'm not trying to shift blame.



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28 May 2014, 11:04 am

Toy_Soldier wrote:
What made this more immediate was the possible connection of the killer having Aspergers, though I am not at this point sure that is true. I have heard it both stated he was diagnosed, and also stated it was just the parents suspicion.



Here's an article in which someone that knew him states that he was never diagnosed with AS. :shrug:

http://laist.com/2014/05/26/alarming_em ... hp#photo-1



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28 May 2014, 11:17 am

Venger wrote:
Toy_Soldier wrote:
What made this more immediate was the possible connection of the killer having Aspergers, though I am not at this point sure that is true. I have heard it both stated he was diagnosed, and also stated it was just the parents suspicion.



Here's an article in which someone that knew him states that he was never diagnosed with AS. :shrug:

http://laist.com/2014/05/26/alarming_em ... hp#photo-1


I've seen several reports of that. However, the popular media has taken license from the huge number of undiagnosed, wrongly diagnosed, under diagnosed, and self-diagnosed autistics - to the media, plausibility is enough. In any case, the general impression is that he had Asperger's Syndrome. I'm sure plenty of experts are investigating and arguing the realities of any conditions and disorders he may have had.



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28 May 2014, 11:18 am

SoftwareEngineer wrote:
Perhaps, Elliot Rodgers really did come to Wrong Planet asking for help. What if the investigation turns up a Wrong Planet user name? What if his posts and the responses he received from other Wrong Planet users end up on TV news, in book, or in a movie? What if the tearful mother of one of the dead victims asks "Why didn't you help him? He asked for help. You could have helped him. Why did you treat him that way?"


I couldn't care less.

When certain male posters spew bile at Womankind, I stand up for myself. It's not my responsibility to coddle entitled brats who are out-of-touch with reality.

There's absolutely nothing a bunch of internet posts can do to correct the damaged though processes of a kid whose thinking was clearly off the deep end. If someone wants to blame me for the shootings because of not coddling entitled brats, they're only going to make themselves look foolish.


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28 May 2014, 11:30 am

SoftwareEngineer wrote:
Venger wrote:
Toy_Soldier wrote:
What made this more immediate was the possible connection of the killer having Aspergers, though I am not at this point sure that is true. I have heard it both stated he was diagnosed, and also stated it was just the parents suspicion.



Here's an article in which someone that knew him states that he was never diagnosed with AS. :shrug:

http://laist.com/2014/05/26/alarming_em ... hp#photo-1


I've seen several reports of that. However, the popular media has taken license from the huge number of undiagnosed, wrongly diagnosed, under diagnosed, and self-diagnosed autistics - to the media, plausibility is enough. In any case, the general impression is that he had Asperger's Syndrome. I'm sure plenty of experts are investigating and arguing the realities of any conditions and disorders he may have had.


People with AS almost never think that others are supposed to "worship" them like he obviously did. Often it's the other way around where the AS person feels slightly-inferior and thinks they have to prove themselves to others.

I guess calling him a psychopath with NPD or whatever isn't "trendy" like AS though.



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28 May 2014, 11:49 am

Venger wrote:
SoftwareEngineer wrote:
Venger wrote:
Toy_Soldier wrote:
What made this more immediate was the possible connection of the killer having Aspergers, though I am not at this point sure that is true. I have heard it both stated he was diagnosed, and also stated it was just the parents suspicion.



Here's an article in which someone that knew him states that he was never diagnosed with AS. :shrug:

http://laist.com/2014/05/26/alarming_em ... hp#photo-1


I've seen several reports of that. However, the popular media has taken license from the huge number of undiagnosed, wrongly diagnosed, under diagnosed, and self-diagnosed autistics - to the media, plausibility is enough. In any case, the general impression is that he had Asperger's Syndrome. I'm sure plenty of experts are investigating and arguing the realities of any conditions and disorders he may have had.


People with AS almost never think that others are supposed to "worship" them like he obviously did. Often it's the other way around where the AS person feels slightly-inferior and thinks they have to prove themselves to others.

I guess calling him a psychopath with NPD or whatever isn't "trendy" like AS though.


I agree with you on what the video seems to represent. But, I really think the video was some of his real feelings combined with an attempt to inflict lasting shame and notoriety on someone. And, there may have been an element of grandiose theatrics with embellishments - there may have been even morel factors. If he was autistic, that may have been just a grain of sand in a huge mountain of characteristics.



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28 May 2014, 12:00 pm

SoftwareEngineer wrote:
The video clearly shows an individual with cumulative anger, frustration, distorted thinking, and the resulting criminal state of mind which developed over a period of time. At the time the video was made, there wasn't much to be done, but earlier, maybe. Perhaps, at an earlier point, something seemingly small could have turned the tide. Of course, perhaps the tide was going in a different direction and something harsh turned a plea for help into cause for shame, redirecting that tide. Questioning what any individual person wants, what that individual would listen to, and how that individual would actually be helped by, is really a much broader question about why Wrong Planet exists, why this forum exists, and why people with the common challenges of autism congregate here - we all know the practical challenges of autism reach far beyond the disorder itself. You really missed the point of the scenario. I'm not asking you to consider the effects on the criminal as much as the victims and their families. You can't have victims of a crime, without a crime. And, you can't have a crime, without a criminal. When you help an individual to avoid developing into a criminal, you save the victims, plus you save their families from the affects. Sometimes, there is a seemingly small, but decisive moment when things could have been different. Remember, there is the real possibility a similar media event, as depicted in the scenario, will take place. At this point, we aren't deciding if that will happen - others are in control. The investigation and analysis will continue for a long time. The scenario below is valid, simply because it's truly plausible, if not inevitable.

Perhaps, Elliot Rodgers really did come to Wrong Planet asking for help. What if the investigation turns up a Wrong Planet user name? What if his posts and the responses he received from other Wrong Planet users end up on TV news, in book, or in a movie? What if the tearful mother of one of the dead victims asks "Why didn't you help him? He asked for help. You could have helped him. Why did you treat him that way?"


A mentality of entitlement is not helped by fawning to it.

I still don't get your point. And I promise I'm not being deliberately obtuse. Maybe I'm being too literal. I would need to have a clear idea of what he might have said so I could honestly answer this tearful mother.

And: treat him what way?

I cannot speak for others. If someone is lonely, and miserable, I will be supportive as I can. The minute those feelings bleed into misogyny or racism or such, that is the limit of my sympathy. I will not indulge such sentiments. I will not advise so as to implicitly endorse them. If someone ties up their perceived ill-fortune with such narratives, I will move to stop that. I will also do my best to explain what and why this is necessary.

That Rodger blamed women for his romantic failure obviously makes some sort of sense to some people in a way that, say, if he'd blamed people of colour, or Jews, or gay men, or shapeshifting aliens, they would obviously see more clearly what rubbish he was saying, even though all these groups had nothing to do with his romantic failure.


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28 May 2014, 12:28 pm

Hopper wrote:
SoftwareEngineer wrote:
The video clearly shows an individual with cumulative anger, frustration, distorted thinking, and the resulting criminal state of mind which developed over a period of time. At the time the video was made, there wasn't much to be done, but earlier, maybe. Perhaps, at an earlier point, something seemingly small could have turned the tide. Of course, perhaps the tide was going in a different direction and something harsh turned a plea for help into cause for shame, redirecting that tide. Questioning what any individual person wants, what that individual would listen to, and how that individual would actually be helped by, is really a much broader question about why Wrong Planet exists, why this forum exists, and why people with the common challenges of autism congregate here - we all know the practical challenges of autism reach far beyond the disorder itself. You really missed the point of the scenario. I'm not asking you to consider the effects on the criminal as much as the victims and their families. You can't have victims of a crime, without a crime. And, you can't have a crime, without a criminal. When you help an individual to avoid developing into a criminal, you save the victims, plus you save their families from the affects. Sometimes, there is a seemingly small, but decisive moment when things could have been different. Remember, there is the real possibility a similar media event, as depicted in the scenario, will take place. At this point, we aren't deciding if that will happen - others are in control. The investigation and analysis will continue for a long time. The scenario below is valid, simply because it's truly plausible, if not inevitable.

Perhaps, Elliot Rodgers really did come to Wrong Planet asking for help. What if the investigation turns up a Wrong Planet user name? What if his posts and the responses he received from other Wrong Planet users end up on TV news, in book, or in a movie? What if the tearful mother of one of the dead victims asks "Why didn't you help him? He asked for help. You could have helped him. Why did you treat him that way?"


A mentality of entitlement is not helped by fawning to it.

I still don't get your point. And I promise I'm not being deliberately obtuse. Maybe I'm being too literal. I would need to have a clear idea of what he might have said so I could honestly answer this tearful mother.

And: treat him what way?

I cannot speak for others. If someone is lonely, and miserable, I will be supportive as I can. The minute those feelings bleed into misogyny or racism or such, that is the limit of my sympathy. I will not indulge such sentiments. I will not advise so as to implicitly endorse them. If someone ties up their perceived ill-fortune with such narratives, I will move to stop that. I will also do my best to explain what and why this is necessary.

That Rodger blamed women for his romantic failure obviously makes some sort of sense to some people in a way that, say, if he'd blamed people of colour, or Jews, or gay men, or shapeshifting aliens, they would obviously see more clearly what rubbish he was saying, even though all these groups had nothing to do with his romantic failure.


What you quoted from me pretty much covers it. However, I do have an additional point - A huge sense of entitlement combined with a low feeling of self worth is an extremely volatile mix. If a person has everything and still feels failed, then, in that person's mind, the focus of failure is intensely and entirely on them. It's part of the "rich kid" syndrome. If they have the huge sense of entitlement and lots of goodies, then they have no excuse for failure and rejection, except the core of what they are. This matter is possibly very complex and the video may, or may not, be an accurate and complete description of what he was thinking or his ultimate motives.

Again, I'm most interested in the far reaching effects of what he did. I'm not suggesting we should excuse or mitigate anything he did.



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28 May 2014, 7:22 pm

MindBlind wrote:
What the hell?

I understand that some people want to discuss how perhaps, they see parallels with his sentiments and their own experiences, but this is hardly a dating forum anymore. Its getting completely derailed by a political campaign rather than people just sharing their dating experiences.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be feminist discussion on this forum. I'm saying that there shouldn't only be feminist discussion. Plus, some of these threads really belong in he politics forum instead or perhaps the women's forum.


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28 May 2014, 9:12 pm

SoftwareEngineer wrote:
starvingartist wrote:
Giftorcurse wrote:
People say that I just need to be confident, change clothes, take steroids, etc. Sometimes, I get the feeling I have to be an utterly psychopathic barbarian just to please someone of the opposite sex. Ruthless, callous, vicious. After all, they get ahead in society.


son, i'm sorry but i think your timing is really atrocious in creating this thread. perhaps now is not the time to be publicly lamenting your datelessness. find something else to think about for a while until this recent shooting is not so fresh in people's minds, maybe?

edit* to add: i'm not trying to be mean--i know loneliness is no fun for anyone, i have been there myself. it's just really bad timing.


The exchange above is from "How do I really get a girl?" in the Love and Dating sub-Forum. Clearly, this has become the Elliot Rodgers sub-forum. And, clearly, it is not a place where love and dating is considered an appropriate subject, by at least one user. How can a young man who wants a girlfriend be treated this way? Remember, these feelings are common among men and women on the spectrum. They come here to deal with those feelings. This is the place to help with advise and coping, not inflict shame. And certainly, not assign the shame of a mass murderer.

Post note: Many have speculated about the possibility that Elliot Rodgers may have been a member here. Well, consider this - What if Elliot Rodgers had come here seeking the help and support of other autistics? What if two years ago, he had posted to L&D a request for help and some assurances? Maybe, the outcome would have been different. Maybe, he would have spent the last two years with the feeling that some people understood and cared. Myself, I still wouldn't be surprised if many factors in the murders went far beyond anything we see in the video - we don't know for sure. But still, why discourage someone who wants a bit of help and encouragement getting a proper mindset and attitude?

Further note: You know, perhaps Elliot Rodgers really did come here asking for help. What if the investigation turns up a WP user name? What if his posts and the responses he received end up on TV news? What if the mother of one of the dead victims asks into the camera "Why didn't you help him? He asked for help. You could have helped him. Why did you treat him that way?"


That is what I wonder.



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29 May 2014, 6:18 am

Hopper wrote:
Oh, dear Lord.


See, noiseist. Glossing over the fact that 3 people were murdered for a specific reason, compared to 3 others murdered for a specific reason too. How much was written for one or the other holds no bearing other than what the murderer thought was more important to write about. 3 people are 3 people.

In fact, I see noiseism all over this place.

People expecting to walk around without people and objects controlled by people making noise, thinking they're entitled to such. Kids having to be quiet because the noise bothers others. People can't make certain noises because of this or that. Who cares if it's due to a medical reason that the noise bothers them, right?

It's just downright offensive, hypocritical and triple standards.



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29 May 2014, 6:53 am

Dillogic wrote:
Hopper wrote:
Oh, dear Lord.


See, noiseist. Glossing over the fact that 3 people were murdered for a specific reason, compared to 3 others murdered for a specific reason too. How much was written for one or the other holds no bearing other than what the murderer thought was more important to write about. 3 people are 3 people.

In fact, I see noiseism all over this place.

People expecting to walk around without people and objects controlled by people making noise, thinking they're entitled to such. Kids having to be quiet because the noise bothers others. People can't make certain noises because of this or that. Who cares if it's due to a medical reason that the noise bothers them, right?

It's just downright offensive, hypocritical and triple standards.


What do you hope to show or achieve with this analogy?

That people who are anti-noise can be just as dangerous as misogynists? That there is a long but disavowed history of anti-noise? That there's nothing to see here when a man says he's going to kill lots of people - mostly women - because he hates women, and finds support and sympathy for that hatred that reflects many women's experience of men, and starts on his spree, failing (thank God) to 'succeed' as well as he would have liked?

Or that the only thing worse than misogyny - indeed murderous misogny - is women/feminists pointing that misogyny out?

Or are you just really fond of that hole you're digging?


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29 May 2014, 7:02 am

Venger wrote:
SoftwareEngineer wrote:
Venger wrote:
Toy_Soldier wrote:
What made this more immediate was the possible connection of the killer having Aspergers, though I am not at this point sure that is true. I have heard it both stated he was diagnosed, and also stated it was just the parents suspicion.



Here's an article in which someone that knew him states that he was never diagnosed with AS. :shrug:

http://laist.com/2014/05/26/alarming_em ... hp#photo-1


I've seen several reports of that. However, the popular media has taken license from the huge number of undiagnosed, wrongly diagnosed, under diagnosed, and self-diagnosed autistics - to the media, plausibility is enough. In any case, the general impression is that he had Asperger's Syndrome. I'm sure plenty of experts are investigating and arguing the realities of any conditions and disorders he may have had.


People with AS almost never think that others are supposed to "worship" them like he obviously did. Often it's the other way around where the AS person feels slightly-inferior and thinks they have to prove themselves to others.

I guess calling him a psychopath with NPD or whatever isn't "trendy" like AS though.

A friend of mine who is a psychologist thinks that many of the symptoms he displayed - grandiosity, writing lengthy tracts about his idea, paranoia, delusional thinking - and his age are pretty much in-line with schizophrenia.