Why do other guys have the freedom of choice but I don't?

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Marknis
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15 Jan 2017, 11:27 am

I feel like other guys (Context: The ones in my area) have the freedom of choice when it comes to relationships but I am considered unworthy simply because I am different. They have the right to choose whether or not they want a relationship while I am told I can't have one at all because of this or that.

Some tell me I need to "work on yourself" but it feels like punishment in disguise. Sure, I could be less shy and anxious but I don't think that innately means I am unworthy of a partner. It's like I am being told I am "messed up" and need to shut myself off from society until I am "fixed". But how can one improve if they are told you are unfit to be around other people?



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15 Jan 2017, 12:30 pm

Marknis wrote:
I feel like other guys (Context: The ones in my area) have the freedom of choice when it comes to relationships but I am considered unworthy simply because I am different. They have the right to choose whether or not they want a relationship while I am told I can't have one at all because of this or that.

Some tell me I need to "work on yourself" but it feels like punishment in disguise. Sure, I could be less shy and anxious but I don't think that innately means I am unworthy of a partner. It's like I am being told I am "messed up" and need to shut myself off from society until I am "fixed". But how can one improve if they are told you are unfit to be around other people?

I think it's an illusion. Nobody has the freedom of choice. There are women who like you, there are ones who don't. It's the same with everyone. There isn't a single person who is liked by every member of the other sex.

I try to think about this like selling a product (that is you in this case). First, you need the product itself, meaning: you need to look healthy, clean, and you need to have hobbies you can talk about. They serve as connection points between you and others. The more multifunctional you are, the more things you can talk about, and the more you can connect with others. The second thing is, you need to sell the product, which means that you need to have people skills. Talk to people, be around ones you like, learn their behaviour patterns, and combine everything you like into a self-image you can live with. Don't focus on having a girlfriend, don't make it a first priority. Be someone you like, and be around people you like.

The thing isn't about finding a girlfriend, but about finding the right girlfriend, but that can only happen once you're sure about yourself. And even then, there's no such thing as freedom of choice. Women are people, not objects. ;)



AngelRho
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15 Jan 2017, 3:43 pm

AusWolf is right. The ability to choose is an illusion. Nobody gets to date whoever they want. The success of getting a date is contingent on acceptance. You CAN, however, ask anyone you want for a date. Just be careful with your expectations, because rejection is a part of life. Some guys are social chameleons who can sell any girl out there, or so it seems, anyway. I'm not that guy, but I somehow managed to start a family despite a long list of rejection and failures. You can't choose a girl who doesn't choose you back, and really the whole business of dating is somewhere between divine Providence and pure luck.

The good news is that if there's one person for everyone, there are several people out there who are compatible. Some will dump you, some will cheat on you, and some are lifers. And those are just the ones you'll be in a relationship with.

Let's assume you have 1:100 probability of getting a date with ANY girl. The more rejections you get, the more your odds of getting a date with any approaches a 100% certainty. The odds increase exponentially, and that's before you factor in the fluidity of a girl's willingness to date you combined with your own experience of presenting yourself as a datable person. Guys who appear to "have their pick" really just have more experience or a natural ability/instinct. They don't dwell on rejection, but if you knew the reality of their acceptance/rejection patterns, you might find these guys a lot more like mere mortals than you'd have ever imagined.

As to being "messed up"...

My personal philosophy is we are all broken, messed up, flawed, and corrupt. Not just aspies/neurodiverse, but NT's also. Everyone. Our worst flaw is also the quality that keeps us alive: Selfishness. We all want to feel important. Being told to "work on yourself" makes you insecure. Why SHOULD you have to change for anyone? You're just a little different, why should that even matter?

See, everyone thinks like this on a fundamental level. If I have to change for someone, it means how I feel and what I want or need don't matter. Like I'm not important. And we'll wallow in miserable self-importance our whole lives before we admit someone else might be right.

Therefore...

If EVERYONE resists change for the sake of their own self-importance, why bother asking someone to change? Here's the answer: Because you care about someone enough to change something to make them feel good about themselves. And you wouldn't dare ask them to change for you.

That's when something funny happens. They see the change you are making FOR THEM, they like your affirming comments ("you are perfect the way you are"), and they want to hang out with you because of the way you make them feel about themselves. They will go on dates with you. They'll even fall in love with you. They will tell you whatever you want to hear, do whatever you want them to do, because you make them feel AWESOME, and they want to keep feeling AWESOME. They are into you not because they love you, but rather because they love themselves.

THIS, my friend, is the full realization of the Golden Rule: "Therefore, whatever you want others to do for you, do also the same for them—this is the Law and the Prophets."

What you really want is for people to change for you, moving from rejection to acceptance, from unfit for dating to datable in their perception. If you don't care to change for them, they won't change for you.

And, honestly, it's not so much that you really have to change or be a completely different person. Mainly you just have to invest heavily in other people. Remember, the goal is to get people to notice you in a positive way. The more good you do for others, the more this will happen. It's what you do to meet the needs of others that counts, more so than changing yourself. All the change you really need is to make sure your message of concern for others doesn't get lost in your appearance or the way you talk. But we're not talking about a total personality/wardrobe makeover or anything. Just minor 5-minutes-a-day kinds of things.

Girls are always attracted to guys who show the appearance of genuine interest in them. To feel important. Once you figure that part out, they'll flock to you. Don't doubt me! See for yourself.



supguysfriedchicken
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16 Jan 2017, 5:40 am

AngelRho wrote:
Let's assume you have 1:100 probability of getting a date with ANY girl. The more rejections you get, the more your odds of getting a date with any approaches a 100% certainty. The odds increase exponentially, and that's before you factor in the fluidity of a girl's willingness to date you combined with your own experience of presenting yourself as a datable person. Guys who appear to "have their pick" really just have more experience or a natural ability/instinct. They don't dwell on rejection, but if you knew the reality of their acceptance/rejection patterns, you might find these guys a lot more like mere mortals than you'd have ever imagined.


That's not how probability works. If each girl was of a hive mind, then yes, the chances would go up towards that 100% certainty; however, each girl is of their own mind. Each girl you ask out in this scenario would still have a 1% chance of saying yes to you. This could explain why people like me are, and will be in the future, forever single.


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Alliekit
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16 Jan 2017, 6:58 am

Just a random thought but when they say 'improve your self' maybe they mean rather than become like them become the best you. While shyness and anxiety doesn't make you unworthy of a relationship it does stop people from seeing the real you because all they see is the shyness and anxiety.



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16 Jan 2017, 10:23 am

Probability doesn't work here. If you approach the prettiest girl in a bar she will turn you down. Not only that, nobody else is going to say yes.



AngelRho
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16 Jan 2017, 11:47 am

BTDT wrote:
Probability doesn't work here. If you approach the prettiest girl in a bar she will turn you down. Not only that, nobody else is going to say yes.

Probability always works. ;-)

There are ways of skewing odds in your favor. I don't propose anyone just "approach the prettiest girl in the bar," anyway. Most of the time girls will go out with guys they are comfortable with, even if they're no more than just friends. What I'm saying is if you are well enough acquainted with 100 girls, I believe AT LEAST ONE will go out with you. You don't know the actual odds of any girl saying yes, but with each rejection it becomes exponentially more likely that a girl will say yes until it's a near-certainty. What you'll find is your actual results are better than the odds, and most people learn from experience how to improve on that.



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16 Jan 2017, 11:55 am

AngelRho wrote:
BTDT wrote:
Probability doesn't work here. If you approach the prettiest girl in a bar she will turn you down. Not only that, nobody else is going to say yes.

Probability always works. ;-)

There are ways of skewing odds in your favor. I don't propose anyone just "approach the prettiest girl in the bar," anyway. Most of the time girls will go out with guys they are comfortable with, even if they're no more than just friends. What I'm saying is if you are well enough acquainted with 100 girls, I believe AT LEAST ONE will go out with you. You don't know the actual odds of any girl saying yes, but with each rejection it becomes exponentially more likely that a girl will say yes until it's a near-certainty. What you'll find is your actual results are better than the odds, and most people learn from experience how to improve on that.


Assuming you're not some kind of hideous freak that nobody could ever be attracted to, that's not bad advice.



BTDT
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16 Jan 2017, 12:01 pm

Probabilty doesn't work because the act of asking skews the response you get from other women who see you asking. There is in fact a hive mentality in that someone who gets turned down by everyone gets to be known as the creep who asks everyone.



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16 Jan 2017, 12:31 pm

Alliekit wrote:
Just a random thought but when they say 'improve your self' maybe they mean rather than become like them become the best you. While shyness and anxiety doesn't make you unworthy of a relationship it does stop people from seeing the real you because all they see is the shyness and anxiety.


I think what matters alot also, is how you handle your anxiety and shyness. Being shy is not a death sentence, but sometimes people overcompensate for their shyness, and it will seem weird/desperate. I don't have social anxiety, I'm not that shy either, but I'm definitely not a big talker. Many times people fall into the trap of overcompensating, because they think they need to be someone else, but they don't. Try to make the things you say connect better with people, or more interesting, and carry yourself in a relaxed manner. Don't talk alot just for the sake of talking, or to avoid being perceived as shy. Quality trumps quantity.

The reason I say this, is because it's a very common instinct for people(especially aspies) to think:"for people to like me I just need to talk more!", which I don't find true at all. While it may make some people like others, it will not necessarily make people like you, if it doesn't align with the person you are. Believe or not, but alot of people are actually attracted to someone who doesn't talk their damn ears off, this goes for both friends and partners.

To the OP, as cliché as it sounds, try to first and foremost find peace within yourself.



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16 Jan 2017, 2:40 pm

BTDT wrote:
Probabilty doesn't work because the act of asking skews the response you get from other women who see you asking. There is in fact a hive mentality in that someone who gets turned down by everyone gets to be known as the creep who asks everyone.


The last line is very true, I never heard women talk favorbly of the guy who asks everyone.

In fact, I have the impression that it is not even socially acceptable by them to ask out two girls of the same group/social circle; it is insane.

ps: for the picky feminists; the word girl for me is equivalent of guy, not of boy.



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16 Jan 2017, 4:38 pm

Sabreclaw wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
BTDT wrote:
Probability doesn't work here. If you approach the prettiest girl in a bar she will turn you down. Not only that, nobody else is going to say yes.

Probability always works. ;-)

There are ways of skewing odds in your favor. I don't propose anyone just "approach the prettiest girl in the bar," anyway. Most of the time girls will go out with guys they are comfortable with, even if they're no more than just friends. What I'm saying is if you are well enough acquainted with 100 girls, I believe AT LEAST ONE will go out with you. You don't know the actual odds of any girl saying yes, but with each rejection it becomes exponentially more likely that a girl will say yes until it's a near-certainty. What you'll find is your actual results are better than the odds, and most people learn from experience how to improve on that.


Assuming you're not some kind of hideous freak that nobody could ever be attracted to, that's not bad advice.

Thanks. I AM a hideous freak, tyvm. If you allow girls to get to know you, much of that can be overcome.



AngelRho
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16 Jan 2017, 5:08 pm

BTDT wrote:
Probabilty doesn't work because the act of asking skews the response you get from other women who see you asking. There is in fact a hive mentality in that someone who gets turned down by everyone gets to be known as the creep who asks everyone.

Maybe, but I'm unconvinced. Depends on how you ask. I prefer a looser definition of "date" to include any casual gtg you wouldn't ordinarily consider a "date-date" in any conventional sense. If anyone gives me a hard time about it, I'd just say "oh, she was telling me about this project at work and I bought her lunch so she could tell me more about what she was doing. It's nothing serious, we're just two friends hanging out."

And, I mean, what's the big deal, anyway? Why does the entire population of women have to "see" you ask one of their own to coffee or lunch? Why is that anybody's business? If it's a problem, then just get creative and subtle about how you do the asking. "Oh, you do a poetry reading at ___ every Saturday night? Cool! I'd love to check that out sometime, except I don't know anyone there. Would it offend you if I meet you there first, maybe I could meet your friends? I want to go, just don't want it to be weird." Next thing you know, she's asking YOU out.

What, a "date"? I was just there for a poetry reading!

See what I mean? Maybe YOU intended for it to be a date, or something like it. Nobody else ever need know that. And it gets the job done, same as a "date-date." You get to know her, she gets to know you, you have a good time, you leave it open for something else in the future. And nobody can call you out for being a creep. If you ask out another girl next week, you have nothing to be guilty about.

Like I said, the odds improve exponentially in your favor as you go. Actual results should be better than the odds if you do it right, and that may mean rethinking what a date is and how you go about asking for a date. Yeah, I'd ask a girl out even if she told me straight up we're just friends. Because if she says yes, I'm still not going out alone. Since we're just friends, she won't get upset if I ask her cousin out next weekend.



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16 Jan 2017, 10:23 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Sabreclaw wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
BTDT wrote:
Probability doesn't work here. If you approach the prettiest girl in a bar she will turn you down. Not only that, nobody else is going to say yes.

Probability always works. ;-)

There are ways of skewing odds in your favor. I don't propose anyone just "approach the prettiest girl in the bar," anyway. Most of the time girls will go out with guys they are comfortable with, even if they're no more than just friends. What I'm saying is if you are well enough acquainted with 100 girls, I believe AT LEAST ONE will go out with you. You don't know the actual odds of any girl saying yes, but with each rejection it becomes exponentially more likely that a girl will say yes until it's a near-certainty. What you'll find is your actual results are better than the odds, and most people learn from experience how to improve on that.


Assuming you're not some kind of hideous freak that nobody could ever be attracted to, that's not bad advice.

Thanks. I AM a hideous freak, tyvm. If you allow girls to get to know you, much of that can be overcome.


That was a royal "you", just for the reference. Not actually suggesting you personally are ugly.



AngelRho
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16 Jan 2017, 10:55 pm

Sabreclaw wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Sabreclaw wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
BTDT wrote:
Probability doesn't work here. If you approach the prettiest girl in a bar she will turn you down. Not only that, nobody else is going to say yes.

Probability always works. ;-)

There are ways of skewing odds in your favor. I don't propose anyone just "approach the prettiest girl in the bar," anyway. Most of the time girls will go out with guys they are comfortable with, even if they're no more than just friends. What I'm saying is if you are well enough acquainted with 100 girls, I believe AT LEAST ONE will go out with you. You don't know the actual odds of any girl saying yes, but with each rejection it becomes exponentially more likely that a girl will say yes until it's a near-certainty. What you'll find is your actual results are better than the odds, and most people learn from experience how to improve on that.


Assuming you're not some kind of hideous freak that nobody could ever be attracted to, that's not bad advice.

Thanks. I AM a hideous freak, tyvm. If you allow girls to get to know you, much of that can be overcome.


That was a royal "you", just for the reference. Not actually suggesting you personally are ugly.

No, I caught your meaning and didn't take offense.

I just meant that description fits me, and I think maybe I've gotten this far in life because people feel sorry for me. I learned to just accept it because, after all, I'm getting what I want. I just try to make sure that I don't let people down who are nice to me.

You can still be physically grotesque and have heavily impaired speech and still get the girl as long as you have something to offer--as long as you DO something. Sylvester Stalone immediately comes to mind in the "slow of speech" department.