Identifying toxic/abusive people who are stealthy & complex

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It’s pretty easy to tell whether someone is sincere or not. I haven’t encountered a lot of real sociopaths, just a lot of wankers with ego problems. I still think the term is thrown around lightly. A bossy manipulative wanker with an ego problem who doesn’t like you is not automatically a sociopath.

I don’t think it’s the opposite of aspergers. I know how to play their game, if I want to. I don’t want to. Aspergers doesn’t automatically mean someone has low social intelligence.

Maybe they stay away from me because they know they won’t and can’t get to me. One guy who I used to talk to would say “how come it doesn’t work on you?” Well, the answer is, I know what you are and I will not let you manipulate me.

Looking at some of the examples in this thread some of you really need to stand up to these people. If someone lied to people about inviting yourself to a wedding, that’s when you go up to the group, turn to the sociopath and say “What’s all this about? You know that it’s not the case I invited myself, what’s the problem here??”.

I highly recommend http://www.gettinbetter.com and this woman's YouTube page:

https://www.youtube.com/user/PsychSavant

I found her stuff while looking into borderline personality disorder, but she covers other topics. Largely, her writing/videos are about self-healing, but you may find them helpful even if you're not quite looking for that. She gets to the core of personality disorders and helps you understand why you may constantly find yourself dealing with, or subconsciously being drawn to, these individuals in your personal life.

I know they aren't all sociopaths. One person though that I worked could easily be one. Remember a sociopath is exceptionally charming which enables them to manipulate.

What is the root of their ability to be exceptionally charming? Might be useful to study as someone with Aspergers. Even if we're not wanting to manipulate people, well can still use techniques to better connect with people.


Great post! Exactly what I am looking for, I feel burning curiosity so am wanting to study!

My Father falls very neatly into that group.

I disagree that giving a name to something excuses the behavior. The word sociopath is by no means an excuse, just an identifier, like Carnivore, Murderer, Rapist.

I think it's potentially some form of Narcissistic Borderline Personality Disorder that layers on top of an inferiority complex. Those issues put together make the most sense for the outcome, to me.

Narcissistic Borderline Personality Disorder roughly describes them from what is fairly readily observable though I wonder if there are more hidden elements to it, specifically a heightened awareness of psychology as it pertains to self and to others.

The notion of "excusing" it is an interesting idea, from what I can tell it is irrelevant. They either believe that the means justify the ends or that their views represent a sort of divine justice. These people fully understand the concepts of morality and ethics but simply believe that either it does not apply to them at all or that their goals override them. It is either that they are above morality or that their targets are below morality(Like how when we kill a fly we do not feel remorse).

My idea on that is that it's likely mostly "accidental" and less innate awareness. I believe they assume, which with such a disorder would be a logical assumption, that everyone is like them, thinks and feels as they do deep down and just doesn't want to admit it. I have in fact found that to be the case with a couple of people in particular who fit the NBPD profile to a T. I can't say that's all of them based off of the two cases alone, but the intensity and coincidence alone gives insistence to the extreme possibility. Luckily for them, and unfortunately for us, they're correct but only to a very minor degree which can span the basics of human behaviors. (e.g. motivators, de-motivators, disruptors, etc) That's where the lack of compassion and empathy come into play. Because they've found similarities in behaviors based upon the essential core human experience, they mistakenly (as a narcissistic person will oft do) believe that they've stumbled unto some great truth about the human condition and therefore the details are either identical to their own experience or utterly irrelevant, depending on the particular behavior or pattern. So say they're on a tirade about an injustice committed against them out of "clearly malicious intent", when in reality you were just very tired and didn't hear all of what they said. They will then assume that because they themselves have utilized selective hearing and intentionally ignored a portion of someone's sentence, then the other person must obviously be doing the same for the exact same motivations that the NBPD person utilized it for.
A big ball of insecurity tightly packed in a supernova of overconfident and deluded worldview and self perception.



I agree 100% on that. (though I have to admit I always feel bad any time I kill anything)

Sociopath and Sociopath-like people are everywhere. They're numerous and incredibly powerful. They are ALMOST the main reason why this society keeps undoing itself. There are those who have things like panic and anxiety who may commit crimes or cause civil disruptions but they can be helped. Sociopaths can't. It's like a child who refuses to get help because they are just naturally evil. They're in schools, in workplaces, just on the street sometimes, in prisons, in government, they literally TRY to cause a society's collapse. They WANT to see people in pain. It's truly disgusting. They know they can get away with all that they do because they know they can just use our empathy and our lack of knowledge against us. Well I've learned one thing from these people. If you ever end up in a position of power over them, do NOT hesitate to ruin them completely. They might get it then. They won't change in the long term but at least they've been force-fed a little justice.

I generally agree with you. I have a really hard time spotting these Sociopaths and they somehow come straight to me in a crowd and begin their manipulation immediately. It's created paranoia and fear in me whenever I'm in a large group of people. One wrong look and they'll be on top of me. Extremely dangerous and the only way to avoid them is hiding in my house. But I can't really do that.

I've noticed a few traits that might be helpful however. Staring, long and disturbing stares from mysterious people. Avoid those people once they've demonstrated that. But be careful it's the right kind of stare. Some people just do it by accident and others think they may know you. If they have the muscles at the corners of their mouths moving upwards, like a really really small, barely noticeable smile, then you avoid them. Watch their movements and look at their behavior towards others. If they're highly charismatic, uneasily charismatic, then you probably want to avoid them. If they're really loud or extremely pushy, demanding, then be careful. I also find that when in conversation they don't really hold up on anything. They're aggressive and they'll push straight into you without a second thought. We lack the cues but we usually don't really abuse people verbally just for the joy of it. They'll also do that. If someone's giving you constant insults and belittlement, then be careful who you're with. Hopefully these help somewhat.

That REALLY pisses them off. I'm either too clueless to realize or I realize and refuse to give in. They then resort to insults and personal attacks cause they realize I'm not like your average neurotypical. I don't really notice the cues to get manipulated by half of their techniques anyways. It's a NT world for them, and we're the confusing ones who they are attracted to because they like a challenge.

Hi, first post, i just wanted to say thanks very much for this thread, and for the stories, and the gettinbetter.com link as well.
I had a best friend of 8 years do the 'catfish' thing online where they sent 25 pictures of their cousin slowly over all those years, then when finally decide to meet in person they say 'well that's not actually me...' and i somehow let myself be manipulated into being 'ok' with it. Because there is extreme empathy and you always want to be doing the right thing, you know? Especially if life is hard and you want to be helpful to anyone else with mental issues.

Also many other smaller situations like that, they lied about dad leaving as kid when really they lived with him whole time (but just hated due to horrible experiences)- they also said once casually after 8 years of being best friends, 'oh btw my birthday is in this month, not this other month/day i've been saying through our whole friendship'... i must have not understood, or was out of it when i was told, and the first time i brought up the other birthday, i got yelled at hard for not remembering their birthday was actually in ___ month that i was just told. this coming from the same person who didn't remember my birthday at all). I tried to do everything right, and if i didn't immediately forgive every new thing i was lied to about (family/history/bday/photoshopped achievements) i'd get accused by them and nice friends of being an as*hole or transphobic and a whole bunch of stuff i don't really want to get into

The posts about borderline personality seem very true to me, they can be distant from themselves, seemingly both hating themself but also having the biggest ego. at times it very much seems to be about power and control in general. the posts implying people like me are more easily manipulated are definitely true as well - somebody socially awkward will probably have less experience in being manipulated and learning from that please be careful everyone, this was very hard and coming from not just a coworker or anything, but from someone i thought was my best friend for several years. We got along great and made each other laugh a whole lot - but when i found out this created identity involving so many lies i could go on about that would seem silly (they lied to thousands of people about 2 different hobbies), everything fell apart. When i found out basically everything about them was a lie in order to get close to me, they attacked me and manipulated their friend circle into thinking i was the one in the wrong by no longer putting up with all the manipulation - it was shared friend circle so i lost all the people i used to talk to.

The comments about "Also, our talents tend to be real, theirs are generally based on hot air. They don't like that, either." - in retrospect, yes exactly
"chess genius, like they can play god" -yes exactly

I don't even know if it's about them being exceptionally cruel, or if it's about them wanting to see if they can be loved even if they do ___ thing, possibly as some kind of "will i be loved and accepted even if i lie about my entire history? even if i fake pictures and family history and mutual hobby information? let's see." Most of the time they built me up as a person to be honest, it was more that they had secrets that they would never ever admit to even when questioned about it - always trying to cover up the next big secret at any cost.

It's the kind of thing that really makes me want to say, 'even if a person has an amazing sense of morality, make sure their actions are honest and back that up. even then, be careful, because actions can be deceiving and faked'

Still going on, sorry (website wouldn't let me post it as one post) - "only nice when their friends aren't around. Usually, the ones that get close will talk about other people by
Making fun of them
Makeup stories about them" - yes exactly - always trashing people in private because of some thing they said online 3-5 years ago, never giving that up, as some kind of insecurity i guess. I mean, i guess that's part of why i wanted to help so much?

"Their emotions are shallow but believable
In fact, they are actors where the world is a stage and others are players." -yes! this desire is even admitted to by them having it from childhood.

i also agree with the 'easy bait' comments, too - unfortunately it seems like it would be true for anyone without the experience. so sorry to OP and anyone else who get manipulated like that.
See wikipedia article on victim blaming which is also very relevant. I guess this really is the kind of stuff that makes you realize as much as we want to make the world a better place, we do have to stand up for ourselves and not let ourselves be such victims of that kind of contagious abuse - it took me 33 years to learn that unfortunately (but i'm alive and i learned!)

"If they're highly charismatic, uneasily charismatic, then you probably want to avoid them. If they're really loud or extremely pushy, demanding, then be careful. I also find that when in conversation they don't really hold up on anything. They're aggressive and they'll push straight into you without a second thought." - another big one, all these types of replies are true. i don't mean to talk about religion publicly but in my history, the uneasily charismatic/most outspoken people were the same ones who would do something unspeakable, then have it swept under the rug, hidden to the public, and they'd silently leave for another town. but with friends, being socially awkward, it might feel good that you have someone talking to you a lot, even if it is almost always about morality or extreme justice situations

"It's a NT world for them, and we're the confusing ones who they are attracted to because they like a challenge."- yes you guys nailed it again haha. another admitted to thing. although i do think that people can be aware of these types of people and protect themselves from being controlled/manipulated whether they are NT or not.

Sorry for the long first post but i hope it was informative - it seems at the end of the day it comes down to some kind of power/control situation and everyone does have to be careful (doesn't mean that life can't still be great!). I'll admit i'm not sure whether or not attacking them intensely in return is a good idea or the best way to handle a situation (maybe a little bit? but that's also going to seem like an inevitable consequence), but at the very least is always important to educate ourselves and be safe around people.

Hey jadinfinity, you're welcome for the link. Here's another which may be helpful:

https://www.alice-miller.com/en/

I've only started exploring the links I posted, but they've been tremendously helpful in understanding how my own past has led me to put up with a lot of abuse and manipulation. Hopefully they do the same for you.

So we are talking about people who are ashamed to be with us but lead us around, I had mentioned that I was close to someone for 8 years who did exactly just that. She, her friends, family and spouse disapproved of me because I have a strong personality because I am outspoken and self-determined and they hated me for it because it made them feel insecure.

About a year and a half after our friendship had ended she and I sat down only to have her drop all kinds of reasons why we couldn't be friends such as
1. Her husband was against us meeting because he didn't like me "Of course my husband was against us meeting."
2. We had nothing in common
3. There is a huge age difference between us
4. Every time she turned around I would get mad at her for things that were not true
5. How these other people in their lives were more preferable than I was in the eyes of she and her husand
"My new friend and I share the same values and have this and that in common." "My husband doesn't like you but likes one of your close friends better. He also likes one of my other close friends. In fact we went to the mall a few weeks ago and they had a good time."
6. She only had me in her life because she latched onto anyone because she was lonely
7. She admitted to being a "People pleaser" and that she had always been something that she wasn't. This included lying to me about all of her interests.
8. She went on to blame me for talking about she and her husband on Facebook after they came to a party that I had only to show no interest in the party because "They felt out of place" while have arrogant attitudes and have no consideration that they were in someone else's house. "That's the straw that broke the camel's back."

(That meeting made me cry)

Then when we were leaving, she gave me a hug and said that I could "Email her every now and then" after she said all those other nasty things during the meeting that made me feel bad.

sorry twilight... :<
it does seem like loneliness will drive us to do things we wouldn't in order to have a friend. i ended up playing a game that person liked for years in order to be closer to them as a friend, when really i was being lied to all along.

Time is a precious/limited resource when it comes to our social lives and needs, so people use power/control to get it... You say this person was a people pleaser, but to me that doesn't seem as much of manipulation as what her husband is doing? (possibly picking her friends for his own desires or the sake of their relationship) she might be ending up the one being manipulated?
sorry if that's overspeculation or anything. i'm sure you guys have something in common, otherwise couldn't have been friends for 8 years right?

i think i'm learning for myself at least, not to push anyone entirely out of my life, because now i know that people can let themselves be manipulated the same way i did. but if they go to a new life then at least they're happier, and the best solution to all these kinds of things is to always love/respect yourself - since if you do that, you'll always be loved and nobody can take that away from you either. it's its own habit... then new friendships can begin from there.

thanks too for the other link llama! i'll be checking it out more with the other today

She had a very manipulative side to her too in which she did this by
1. Constantly telling me that her other friends and family members didn't like me just about everytime I caught her doing things that were questionable
2. She invited me to her father's home onetime and then decided to take the invite away because she and her father had a poor relationship while he and I got along so she was jealous. Anyway, she told me that she had asked her dad if she could invite me over to a cookout but he said no because he was having another guest over with seizures next to being under lots of stress. Because I would dominate the conversation, he was supposedly worried that my talking would set him off.

Twilight, you are better off without her.......