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Apparently I *STILL* don't get it!

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EnglishLulu
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30 Mar 2009, 10:00 pm

Are you actually Irish (from Dublin by any chance?) and living in NY Roisin? I ask that, because maybe it's a cultural thing. In my experience, Americans are often really good at that superficial friendliness, telling everyone to 'have a nice day', smiling at people, gushing with compliments, coming on really strong as though you're their 'new best friend'.

I think Europeans, well, Brits certainly, are much more reserved. If a British person behaved in such a friendly fashion, you'd know that you really had made a new best friend, and that you'd met someone that you genuinely clicked with, because if a Brit did that it would likely be genuine and heartfelt. But Americans are more superficial in that respect, they're overly friendly and overly polite and just tooooooooo much sometimes.

That's what passes for social niceties over there, I guess, it's just a cultural difference, nothing personal against you, they treat everyone like their new best friend, even if they have no intention of keeping in touch, 'hey, it was *great* meeting you, we really *must* meet up for coffee' might be a polite goodbye to them. It's just the way they are. It's a social convention.

I guess it can be likened to the greeting 'Hi, how are you?' 'Fine thanks' and you know that the polite social convention is to say 'Fine thanks' whether or not that's true, or at least, hopefully, if you're Aspie you'll have figured it out or have it explained to you at some point that when someone asks 'How are you?' you're not supposed to say: 'I'm feeling awful, I've got a cold so I have a headache and a bad cough, my boss shouted at me this morning, because I was late for work because my train didn't show up, and last night my cat was run over and killed in the road outside our house.'

So I guess, the social conventions in the US are slightly different too. They are much more over the top compared with Europeans. Personally, I sometimes find it irritatingly insincere and just wish they'd cut out the BS too, and just be 'normal' instead of gushing and pretending to be like my new best friend when I only met them two minutes ago.

But then again, I must admit I do the hug and kiss thing, because I used to work as an arts administrator and now work in the media, and they're both very 'luvvy darling' sectors, and I've also lived in France and have European friends who are traditionally more into the kissy greetings than Brits.

Don't take it personally, is all I can advise. They're probably just gushing because it's the social convention to be over friendly, you're not necessarily meant to take it literally, so instead, wait for their cue, and if they take your number and don't call, they were just being courteous and polite in that moment, but don't want to develop a friendship or relationship. Don't take it too much to heart, it's not personal, it's just one of those unwritten rules, like saying 'fine thanks'.



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31 Mar 2009, 6:13 am

EnglishLulu wrote:
I guess it can be likened to the greeting 'Hi, how are you?' 'Fine thanks' and you know that the polite social convention is to say 'Fine thanks' whether or not that's true, or at least, hopefully, if you're Aspie you'll have figured it out or have it explained to you at some point that when someone asks 'How are you?' you're not supposed to say: 'I'm feeling awful, I've got a cold so I have a headache and a bad cough, my boss shouted at me this morning, because I was late for work because my train didn't show up, and last night my cat was run over and killed in the road outside our house.'


I think I am still hung up on this one. Aparently I have made it through 35 years of life without anyone trying to explain this one to me... This is the answer that "close friends" might want, but most "strangers" just want the "fine thanks". I get the "close friends" vs. "strangers" part really well...... it is all of the other subtle levels of interpersonal banter that fall in between these two that trip me up! :roll: :oops:



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31 Mar 2009, 6:42 am

EnglishLulu wrote:
Are you actually Irish (from Dublin by any chance?) and living in NY Roisin? I ask that, because maybe it's a cultural thing. In my experience, Americans are often really good at that superficial friendliness, telling everyone to 'have a nice day', smiling at people, gushing with compliments, coming on really strong as though you're their 'new best friend'.

I think Europeans, well, Brits certainly, are much more reserved. If a British person behaved in such a friendly fashion, you'd know that you really had made a new best friend, and that you'd met someone that you genuinely clicked with, because if a Brit did that it would likely be genuine and heartfelt. But Americans are more superficial in that respect, they're overly friendly and overly polite and just tooooooooo much sometimes.

That's what passes for social niceties over there, I guess, it's just a cultural difference, nothing personal against you, they treat everyone like their new best friend, even if they have no intention of keeping in touch, 'hey, it was *great* meeting you, we really *must* meet up for coffee' might be a polite goodbye to them. It's just the way they are. It's a social convention.

I agree. My sister is married to an American and he did seem to stand out over here (Australia). In Australia we are not as intense as Americans, more easy going down to earth.
I like this thread. It has really made me think.



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31 Mar 2009, 6:50 am

whipstitches wrote:
EnglishLulu wrote:
I guess it can be likened to the greeting 'Hi, how are you?' 'Fine thanks' and you know that the polite social convention is to say 'Fine thanks' whether or not that's true, or at least, hopefully, if you're Aspie you'll have figured it out or have it explained to you at some point that when someone asks 'How are you?' you're not supposed to say: 'I'm feeling awful, I've got a cold so I have a headache and a bad cough, my boss shouted at me this morning, because I was late for work because my train didn't show up, and last night my cat was run over and killed in the road outside our house.'


I think I am still hung up on this one. Aparently I have made it through 35 years of life without anyone trying to explain this one to me... This is the answer that "close friends" might want, but most "strangers" just want the "fine thanks". I get the "close friends" vs. "strangers" part really well...... it is all of the other subtle levels of interpersonal banter that fall in between these two that trip me up! :roll: :oops:

I can't help hearing my coworkers talking about all sorts of personal things in response to the question "How are you?" There is definitely a difference between the expected response to that question when people pass in a hallway & when they visit at someone's desk. I think there are some non-verbal signals that people use to determine how to answer that question (when not just passing in a hallway.) I notice that people who regularly join each other for breaks - "let's go have a cigarette," or, "let's go get coffee" (at the coffee machine - not Starbucks) will chat at a more personal level than those who don't take breaks together. Then, there are people who share activities outside of work (hunting, poker, video games, etc.) who alternate talking about shared interests with talking about their personal lives.

But I'm with you, whipstitches - I have no idea how people get to these different stages of openness.

And, EnglishLulu - I think there might be something to what you say about SOME American social groups. I have met some very "over the top" people, who caused me to not believe a word they said (I used to be involved in community theater groups.) But I lived in Belgium for five years & had daily contact with people from throughout Europe - and aside from there being more formal rules of politeness (always shaking hands & having to give a kiss on the cheek to any woman I'd met more than once), I found most Europeans I met to be pretty much like most Americans.


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31 Mar 2009, 9:12 am

RoisinDubh wrote:
I get the feeling that people also love the idea of being seen as popular, they LOVE name-dropping, but for all the talk about US not being able to connect with others, I think NTs have a similar problem, but for different reasons.


I think you may have summed it up there - having friends is important to them to a degree, but what's even more important is being seen to have friends.

My thoughts:

There have been discussions on WP before about what the central thing is that defines an Aspie (is it problems with communication? is it our obsessions? etc.) If I were to pick the one central thing that defines an NT, it would be that they are constantly very, very aware of and concerned with how others around them see them and what they think of them. The idea that someone might suspect them of 'having no friends' is an absolutely horrifying thought to them, and so they try to make not only more genuine friends, but large amounts of faux-friendly connections so that practically wherever they go, they can be seen to be engaging in these social interactions with their 'friends' by others.



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31 Mar 2009, 9:29 am

Hovis wrote:
RoisinDubh wrote:
I get the feeling that people also love the idea of being seen as popular, they LOVE name-dropping, but for all the talk about US not being able to connect with others, I think NTs have a similar problem, but for different reasons.


I think you may have summed it up there - having friends is important to them to a degree, but what's even more important is being seen to have friends.

My thoughts:

There have been discussions on WP before about what the central thing is that defines an Aspie (is it problems with communication? is it our obsessions? etc.) If I were to pick the one central thing that defines an NT, it would be that they are constantly very, very aware of and concerned with how others around them see them and what they think of them. The idea that someone might suspect them of 'having no friends' is an absolutely horrifying thought to them, and so they try to make not only more genuine friends, but large amounts of faux-friendly connections so that practically wherever they go, they can be seen to be engaging in these social interactions with their 'friends' by others.

I think there is a lot of truth in this. I remember overhearing a co-worker once stating how sad it was that another of our co-workers (not me) had no friends in the company. Now that I think of it, he probably was saying the same thing about me, when I was out of earshot. These casual friendships definitely seem to be at the center of NT self-worth.


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31 Mar 2009, 9:37 am

Hmm. That's a bit of a revelation. Perhaps neurotypicals are as awkward in real relationships as we are, they're just better at hiding it.

It reminds me of a neurotypical that said she was jealous of all the friends I had. I don't hang out with all that many people and I didn't think she was that unpopular, but come to think of it all my friends are true friends. I never really thought that maybe my obsession with what constitutes a true friend has earned me more real friends than your average neurotypical.



EnglishLulu
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31 Mar 2009, 11:46 pm

whipstitches wrote:
EnglishLulu wrote:
I guess it can be likened to the greeting 'Hi, how are you?' 'Fine thanks' and you know that the polite social convention is to say 'Fine thanks' whether or not that's true, or at least, hopefully, if you're Aspie you'll have figured it out or have it explained to you at some point that when someone asks 'How are you?' you're not supposed to say: 'I'm feeling awful, I've got a cold so I have a headache and a bad cough, my boss shouted at me this morning, because I was late for work because my train didn't show up, and last night my cat was run over and killed in the road outside our house.'


I think I am still hung up on this one. Aparently I have made it through 35 years of life without anyone trying to explain this one to me... This is the answer that "close friends" might want, but most "strangers" just want the "fine thanks". I get the "close friends" vs. "strangers" part really well...... it is all of the other subtle levels of interpersonal banter that fall in between these two that trip me up! :roll: :oops:
Don't worry, I still haven't totally mastered it at 39 either! :lol:

I don't know when I cottoned on to it being a social convention, that no matter how you're feeling, you're supposed to say Fine thanks.

Like zeichner says, though, a lot of it is about context and if you're just passing someone on the street or passing someone in the corridor, or passing by someone's desk or workstation and they say Hi how are you, then you're supposed to answer I'm fine thanks, How are you? but sometimes if you stop to talk to a good friend, then maybe you can be more open and honest, so the rules of social engagement depend on where you're talking, whether you're just passing one another, whether you're stopping to chat, how well you know them. There are lots of subtleties.

But even when I know for sure that I'm just passing someone and we're supposed to be casually saying Hi how are you? I'm fine to one another, I still have to fight my Aspie urge to tell the truth, and not to be dishonest. Because to me, saying I'm fine if I'm feeling lousy, that's lying! 8O

Sometimes, I actually find that I've stopped myself, and corrected myself, like someone says: Hi, how are you? And I've said: I'm fine... oh, actually, y'know what? I'm lying, I'm not fine, I'm having one of those sh!tty days! :roll:

NTs react differently. Some of them might go: Oooooooooooookay, sorry to hear that, anyway, I'm on my way to a meeting, see you later! (And the NT to Aspie translation is that they're probably thinking, hey, that's a weird response, you're supposed to stick to the script! You're supposed to say you're fine! And of course, when they say 'see you later' they don't necessarily mean that they're going to see you later, they might just mean goodbye)

And another NT might appreciate my being open and honest, because that kind of gives them permission to go 'off script' too, and enables them to be more honest, and maybe they might say, yeah, I'm feeling lousy too, I think I'm coming down with a cold. (And the NT to Aspie translation of that scenario is that you've bonded a bit with a co-worker, you've deepened your relationship, because you've shared your commiserations about having a bad day and feeling lousy.)

Sometimes I get it right. Sometimes I get it wrong. :oops:

But in the scheme of things, who cares, it's just a momentary interaction with someone. *shrugs*



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01 Apr 2009, 1:53 am

DustinWX wrote:
I think a lot of time aspies, get the feeling that people hate them and a lot of time this is true, but a lot of time we are so jaded from past rejections that we assume that everyone is out to get us when in reality they are not. One thing though, is you never know who your friends are, with most people. I've seen people go from talking sh** one moment about someone to smiling and giving them a hug when they walk up. I assume they are doing the same for me.


It seems that people do this to others regardless of if they have AS or not.


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02 Apr 2009, 3:44 pm

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Selective memory, WTF!?!? And then, of course, there's the ones who claim that I'M remembering wrong....as if!

YES! I soooooo hate that!

I have a near perfect memory (not always that useful, especially when bad stuff happens to you ;) ) and then these people who forget their phone, wallet or coat every day yell stuff like "Yeah, I told you this!! !". But they where THINKING IT, at best! Appearantly they can claim to have said something when merely thinking it! Must be sooo easy to be an NT! :x



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03 Apr 2009, 1:27 am

Dentu wrote:
Neurotypicals are forgetful people that have wildly fluctuating whims. They'll just suddenly decide that they don't want to see someone one day, or aren't sure they want to have the potential to see a person every day. They don't like commitment as much as we do, and their memories are alarmingly patchy. We aspies might be flaky, but we ultimately do remember things. Listening to neurotypicals talk about past instances I remember very clearly has always shocked me with how little they actually remember correctly.

I've had my best friends sidestep me sometimes. It used to bother me, but I've come to terms with their neurotypical brains occasionally wanting space. It's nothing against me.

I definity agree with that statement



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03 Apr 2009, 1:27 am

Dentu wrote:
Neurotypicals are forgetful people that have wildly fluctuating whims. They'll just suddenly decide that they don't want to see someone one day, or aren't sure they want to have the potential to see a person every day. They don't like commitment as much as we do, and their memories are alarmingly patchy. We aspies might be flaky, but we ultimately do remember things. Listening to neurotypicals talk about past instances I remember very clearly has always shocked me with how little they actually remember correctly.

I've had my best friends sidestep me sometimes. It used to bother me, but I've come to terms with their neurotypical brains occasionally wanting space. It's nothing against me.

I definity agree with that statement



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03 Apr 2009, 1:28 am

Dentu wrote:
Neurotypicals are forgetful people that have wildly fluctuating whims. They'll just suddenly decide that they don't want to see someone one day, or aren't sure they want to have the potential to see a person every day. They don't like commitment as much as we do, and their memories are alarmingly patchy. We aspies might be flaky, but we ultimately do remember things. Listening to neurotypicals talk about past instances I remember very clearly has always shocked me with how little they actually remember correctly.

I've had my best friends sidestep me sometimes. It used to bother me, but I've come to terms with their neurotypical brains occasionally wanting space. It's nothing against me.

I definity agree with that statement



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04 Apr 2009, 11:37 am

EnglishLulu wrote:
Are you actually Irish (from Dublin by any chance?) and living in NY Roisin? I ask that, because maybe it's a cultural thing. In my experience, Americans are often really good at that superficial friendliness, telling everyone to 'have a nice day', smiling at people, gushing with compliments, coming on really strong as though you're their 'new best friend'.

I think Europeans, well, Brits certainly, are much more reserved. If a British person behaved in such a friendly fashion, you'd know that you really had made a new best friend, and that you'd met someone that you genuinely clicked with, because if a Brit did that it would likely be genuine and heartfelt. But Americans are more superficial in that respect, they're overly friendly and overly polite and just tooooooooo much sometimes.

That's what passes for social niceties over there, I guess, it's just a cultural difference, nothing personal against you, they treat everyone like their new best friend, even if they have no intention of keeping in touch, 'hey, it was *great* meeting you, we really *must* meet up for coffee' might be a polite goodbye to them. It's just the way they are. It's a social convention.

I guess it can be likened to the greeting 'Hi, how are you?' 'Fine thanks' and you know that the polite social convention is to say 'Fine thanks' whether or not that's true, or at least, hopefully, if you're Aspie you'll have figured it out or have it explained to you at some point that when someone asks 'How are you?' you're not supposed to say: 'I'm feeling awful, I've got a cold so I have a headache and a bad cough, my boss shouted at me this morning, because I was late for work because my train didn't show up, and last night my cat was run over and killed in the road outside our house.'

So I guess, the social conventions in the US are slightly different too. They are much more over the top compared with Europeans. Personally, I sometimes find it irritatingly insincere and just wish they'd cut out the BS too, and just be 'normal' instead of gushing and pretending to be like my new best friend when I only met them two minutes ago.

But then again, I must admit I do the hug and kiss thing, because I used to work as an arts administrator and now work in the media, and they're both very 'luvvy darling' sectors, and I've also lived in France and have European friends who are traditionally more into the kissy greetings than Brits.

Don't take it personally, is all I can advise. They're probably just gushing because it's the social convention to be over friendly, you're not necessarily meant to take it literally, so instead, wait for their cue, and if they take your number and don't call, they were just being courteous and polite in that moment, but don't want to develop a friendship or relationship. Don't take it too much to heart, it's not personal, it's just one of those unwritten rules, like saying 'fine thanks'.



I'm actually from Kerry, but I've often thought that this is in fact more specifically an American thing, and even more specifically a NY thing (god, people are so damn phony here!), than an NT thing. I've lived in several parts of Ireland and N. Ireland, and never had this problem to this extent till I moved here. I'm also all too well aware of the American tendency to be physically all over people they barely know, and having the issue that I already do with being touched by strangers, the whole hugging-and-kissing strangers thing is something I have never, and probably WILL never get used to. I even find it weird when actual FRIENDs of mine who are American feel it necessary to hug and kiss me every time they see me. I've gotten better with it, as in I don't pull away and cringe (too much) anymore when they do it, but god, it seems beyond strange to me.


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04 Apr 2009, 11:45 am

Hovis wrote:
RoisinDubh wrote:
I get the feeling that people also love the idea of being seen as popular, they LOVE name-dropping, but for all the talk about US not being able to connect with others, I think NTs have a similar problem, but for different reasons.


I think you may have summed it up there - having friends is important to them to a degree, but what's even more important is being seen to have friends.

My thoughts:

There have been discussions on WP before about what the central thing is that defines an Aspie (is it problems with communication? is it our obsessions? etc.) If I were to pick the one central thing that defines an NT, it would be that they are constantly very, very aware of and concerned with how others around them see them and what they think of them. The idea that someone might suspect them of 'having no friends' is an absolutely horrifying thought to them, and so they try to make not only more genuine friends, but large amounts of faux-friendly connections so that practically wherever they go, they can be seen to be engaging in these social interactions with their 'friends' by others.


I complain about this on a near-daily basis. What they do is like the real-life equivalent of MySpace friend collecting.

Someone mentioned earlier about some Aspies' inability to differentiate between acquaintances and friends....some may have this, but I definitely don't. I actually separate my friends into three tiers, the first-tier being what others might call 'best friends', and the other two tiers being people I'm comfortable with, just not as much so. The rest, are acquaintances. People I've met only once, unless I feel I've clicked VERY well with them (in which case, I'll try and pursue them further), barely make the acquaintance pool. But with NT's, whether they actually know the difference between friends, acquaintances, and people they've only met once or NOT, will routinely refer to someone as 'my FRIEND, x', and when I ask them how they know them, they'll respond, 'I met him once, at a party'.

WTF???! !! Am I the only one who finds that just SLIGHTLY odd?

And this goes back to the name-dropping topic. I have met SOOOO many people in NY who are 'friends' with famous people, because they met them once, someplace. I've met certain people on NUMEROUS occasions, and wouldn't even claim to KNOW them, let alone be buddies with them.


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