First time in history!! !! The NT/AS open hotline ! !! !! !

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nurseangela
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27 Jun 2016, 3:39 pm

Dreadful Dante wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
This is disturbing. I'm still trying to read through it and understand. I've read about this in Aspie books, but hearing someone speak about it bothers me. I've thought over my past Aspie friendships and there is that "connection" that is missing and now hearing all of this is just confirming that there will probably never be a "connection" or closeness with any Aspies and that is a very lonely and depressing feeling. That could be why Aspies have a hard time making and keeping friends.


Edit: I found some answers. This article:

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8130914.html

Edit2: I took the test she linked at the end. I scored high. Very high. This is one of those times when scoring high isn't exactly a positive thing.


Just talking about this is so upsetting to me. I don't think you get it. I'm actually crying right now because of how sad the situation is because people who are like this can't do anything about it - it's how they are. No NT female could last in a relationship with someone who has this alexithymia. That's why you get the reaction you do from NT's because they can't comprehend someone being like that. Maybe some Aspies don't have alexithymia or have it to a low degree, but the ones who do aren't able to sustain friendships or relationships very well just like the article says. I just keep remembering my one friend who had it and he had relationships, but HE was never happy in them - he said he stayed in them because he thought he was supposed to according to society's rules. He had no feelings for those women or his family. I felt really bad for him. If you tell people, they just aren't going to understand. And they will want to try and "fix" you.


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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


Dreadful Dante
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27 Jun 2016, 4:38 pm

nurseangela wrote:
Just talking about this is so upsetting to me. I don't think you get it. I'm actually crying right now because of how sad the situation is because people who are like this can't do anything about it - it's how they are. No NT female could last in a relationship with someone who has this alexithymia. That's why you get the reaction you do from NT's because they can't comprehend someone being like that. Maybe some Aspies don't have alexithymia or have it to a low degree, but the ones who do aren't able to sustain friendships or relationships very well just like the article says. I just keep remembering my one friend who had it and he had relationships, but HE was never happy in them - he said he stayed in them because he thought he was supposed to according to society's rules. He had no feelings for those women or his family. I felt really bad for him. If you tell people, they just aren't going to understand. And they will want to try and "fix" you.


It's okay, Angela. I'm happy like this. I do have empathy and can imagine how it is to see their pain. It is indeed startling for us and for you, too. And the incredible thing is that you recognize this and try to understand it when almost everyone else is pointing out quick fixes.

Your tears are worth it. You are memorable and everytime I hear the name Angela, I'll picture a wonderful, loving and caring woman. That's my bliss. Having in my mind a never changing perfect image of the special people I meet. And it is unchanging because I know the logics of what makes them perfect.

I will help people like this in the future when I have my financial freedom and I will teach them everything I know, so the lost ones will have a way. And for the ones who believe they're broken, I'll buy them a new mirror. 'Cause we're not broken. We're are artisticly put together. Like Mosaic.

We do love, we do care, we do see the pains of others. It's just that sometimes it takes a little more work for that to happen.

Peacefully,
Dante.

Thank you, Angela. You're very special.



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27 Jun 2016, 7:41 pm

Dreadful Dante wrote:
nurseangela wrote:
Just talking about this is so upsetting to me. I don't think you get it. I'm actually crying right now because of how sad the situation is because people who are like this can't do anything about it - it's how they are. No NT female could last in a relationship with someone who has this alexithymia. That's why you get the reaction you do from NT's because they can't comprehend someone being like that. Maybe some Aspies don't have alexithymia or have it to a low degree, but the ones who do aren't able to sustain friendships or relationships very well just like the article says. I just keep remembering my one friend who had it and he had relationships, but HE was never happy in them - he said he stayed in them because he thought he was supposed to according to society's rules. He had no feelings for those women or his family. I felt really bad for him. If you tell people, they just aren't going to understand. And they will want to try and "fix" you.


It's okay, Angela. I'm happy like this. I do have empathy and can imagine how it is to see their pain. It is indeed startling for us and for you, too. And the incredible thing is that you recognize this and try to understand it when almost everyone else is pointing out quick fixes.

Your tears are worth it. You are memorable and everytime I hear the name Angela, I'll picture a wonderful, loving and caring woman. That's my bliss. Having in my mind a never changing perfect image of the special people I meet. And it is unchanging because I know the logics of what makes them perfect.

I will help people like this in the future when I have my financial freedom and I will teach them everything I know, so the lost ones will have a way. And for the ones who believe they're broken, I'll buy them a new mirror. 'Cause we're not broken. We're are artisticly put together. Like Mosaic.

We do love, we do care, we do see the pains of others. It's just that sometimes it takes a little more work for that to happen.

Peacefully,
Dante.

Thank you, Angela. You're very special.


Now you're going to make me boo hoo all over again. :mrgreen:

Try to be understanding of the NT's in your life - they just like spending time with you. Hopefully they will come around and want to try to understand you better too. And I'm always here if you have any questions, ok? PM me anytime.

Ciao for now, Dante! :mrgreen:


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I'm happiness challenged.

Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 83 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 153 of 200 You are very likely neurotypical
Darn, I flunked.


GhostsInTheWallpaper
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09 Jul 2016, 6:58 pm

Wow, this alexithymia discussion is quite fascinating. I just took the test and scored intermediate, 101 points. And that sounds about right, because when I was younger I used to never miss people, or never be aware of missing people. I also didn't have my first crush until I was 13, and didn't recognize it as having been a crush until I was 15 and liked that same boy again after having liked someone else - my first recognized crush - the previous year. I think that's what allowed me to pull off 4 years dating an Aspie who was definitely more alexithymic than I. There were some rough spots, but it was probably more similar to the average stereotypical man/stereotypical woman relationship, but nerdier because it was between an Aspie and a BAP-ish NT. I thought of it as being like an emotional 16-year-old dating an emotional 13-year-old, although physically I was in my 20s and he was in his 30s.

The thing is, "not missing people" to me meant that I didn't feel sad or lonely when they were gone, but that wasn't the same as feeling nothing. I still don't feel lonely, even though I live alone and spend most of my time by myself, yet I consider myself an ambivert rather than an introvert because I do enjoy the company of others.

I did, however, look forward to spending time with people I liked or cared about when an immediate opportunity was coming, and when I thought of them I felt warm fuzzy feelings, like the kind I felt when I was actually with them but milder. That's what I would tell my mother, who was more like Angela and so had a lot of trouble raising a BAP kid (imagine if I'd been a full-blown Aspie!), when she missed me and asked if I'd missed her. When I thought about her, I thought about how nice it was to be with her, not how much it sucked not to be in contrast.

As I've gotten older, though, I've continued to improve in social, emotional, and practical matters, and I have caught myself being aware of feeling bad or disappointed when I don't get to see someone I'm close to and I wanted or expected to soon. So now I can say I miss people. It's still not a frequent occurrence though, and proper loneliness, if I've truly felt it, is rarer still. I'm usually content to get the time that chance allots me with those people in my life.

I've also learned not to say that I don't miss somebody regardless of whether I have actually felt bad for not getting to hang out with them since the last time I saw them. That's because I understand that "not missing someone" is a standard euphemism for "being glad they're out of your life/off the planet." I don't want anyone I care about to mistake my tendency toward...hypolexithymia, I guess you could call it, or being socially low-maintenance...for actually wanting them out of my life! I didn't understand that until probably sometime in my 20s. (And no, I still wasn't AS back then. I'd grown out of any trace of sensory issues by age 9 and had never lined up my toys, flapped my hands, or done any other classic non-social autistic things. But I might have had SCD until my 20s.) Anyone else who's alexithymic, hypolexithymic, or emotionally low-maintenance has to be careful with how most people are going to interpret "not missing" and therefore try to avoid that particular phrasing.



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09 Jul 2016, 7:44 pm

Thank you for your answer. This thread has clarified me a lot, too.

About the things you said on people mistaking "not missing" for "get out, I don't need you", I know those reactions quite well, including the ones that turn out to be agressive and/or violent.

About BAP and SCD. Can you please explain what those mean?

Ghost said:

"And no, I still wasn't AS back then. I'd grown out of any trace of sensory issues by age 9 and had never lined up my toys, flapped my hands, or done any other classic non-social autistic things."

About you setting a "specific" time period for ASD, there isn't actually such a thing. ASD is a definitive neurobiological alteration in the brain functioning that prevents the subject from naturally developing social skills.
It may impair the verbalization and expression of thoughts and feelings (alexithymia), as the subjects usually need logical and concrete explanation to understand things. As Autism is a spectrum, one might present its symptoms in various degrees compared to others.

The external stereotyped symptoms you described are not always present the same way. Supressing them because of adult reprehension is also common, so there are kids in the autism spectrum who won't do those things in the presence of others or will find other ways (more "socially appropriate", as they bring comfort and safety) to present those behaviours.

Maybe you just meant you didn't have an official diagnosis or still didn't know the name of the problem when you said "I still wasn't AS back then".

Peacefully,
Dante.



GhostsInTheWallpaper
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09 Jul 2016, 8:05 pm

BAP = broad autistic phenotype, which is when someone has ASD traits but not enough to qualify as a disorder.
SCD = social communication disorder, which is the social symptoms of ASD without the repetitive behaviors or sensory issues.

There are many legends of me as an oddball child, but none of them ever involved classic stereotypies like hand-flapping or lining up toys. What they involved were behaviors indicating sensory defensiveness (e.g. covering my ears during fireworks, retreating from hugs) or under-sensitivity to pain (being unfazed when I fell out of a bunk bed and when I got a huge cut from roller skating and had to get stitches), being precocious with ABCs (alphabet at 3 while appearing not to listen in on my sister's lessons, independent reading by 4), being literal and blunt, and lacking common sense.

Recent reading has convinced me that my developmental profile sounds a lot more like Darold Treffert's Type 3 Hyperlexia, where someone starts out appearing to have an ASD but has no problems with eye contact and body language and may seem fine in their inner circle, and then they start to outgrow the non-social ASD traits in mid-childhood and the social ones later. This profile as a separate condition from ASD is hypothesized as an explanation for kids who appear to outgrow autism. And I think if I had been born some 15 or 20 years later, I might well have been diagnosed with ASD and later lost said diagnosis. Instead, I was just a plain old neurotic misfit for a long time, and then diagnosed with ADHD which was later dropped.



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09 Jul 2016, 9:33 pm

GhostsInTheWallpaper wrote:
BAP = broad autistic phenotype, which is when someone has ASD traits but not enough to qualify as a disorder.
SCD = social communication disorder, which is the social symptoms of ASD without the repetitive behaviors or sensory issues.

There are many legends of me as an oddball child, but none of them ever involved classic stereotypies like hand-flapping or lining up toys. What they involved were behaviors indicating sensory defensiveness (e.g. covering my ears during fireworks, retreating from hugs) or under-sensitivity to pain (being unfazed when I fell out of a bunk bed and when I got a huge cut from roller skating and had to get stitches), being precocious with ABCs (alphabet at 3 while appearing not to listen in on my sister's lessons, independent reading by 4), being literal and blunt, and lacking common sense.

Recent reading has convinced me that my developmental profile sounds a lot more like Darold Treffert's Type 3 Hyperlexia, where someone starts out appearing to have an ASD but has no problems with eye contact and body language and may seem fine in their inner circle, and then they start to outgrow the non-social ASD traits in mid-childhood and the social ones later. This profile as a separate condition from ASD is hypothesized as an explanation for kids who appear to outgrow autism. And I think if I had been born some 15 or 20 years later, I might well have been diagnosed with ASD and later lost said diagnosis. Instead, I was just a plain old neurotic misfit for a long time, and then diagnosed with ADHD which was later dropped.


Got it! It's clear now.

I, too, have reduced sensitivity to pain. When I was a child I would climb every possible high furniture / car / roof and sit on top of it just for the comfort of little social interaction. I fell regularly and was assessed for brain damage almost weekly.

I even had times that I was feeling a bearable amount of pain until I realised my body was colapsing, but my mind was actually fine. "WTH, body?!"

Applying alcohol on wounds without flinching. Hitting a furniture with my hips, pinkies or even waxing doesn't feel as bad as people say.

I've had through my whole life the repetitive behaviours, the aligning of objects (books, pens, school material, toys, products), the spinning and swaying back and forth (I have found socially appropriate ways to do these).

I've managed to identify my own symptoms and custom design my own developmental and therapeutic approaches all by myself. As I couldn't and still can't properly verbalize my needs, I had to become my own professional assistance. It's fun, though. I feel like the highest scale of genius.

As I haven't been able to ask for help (I unconsciously assume an euphemic speech pattern when in presence of any social being), I'm writing a journal with my difficulties, development and interviewing family members about me.

I'm planning to show this material to my next therapist. Maybe with empiric data she won't need me to speak of something I won't be able to clearly express.

"Plain old neurotic misfit". That defines the rawness of being different from the perspective of vulgar eyes. I find it very poetic.

Peacefully,
Dante.



GhostsInTheWallpaper
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09 Jul 2016, 10:26 pm

Good luck getting support to further your already solid and hard-earned progress, Dante!

I no longer feel like a neurotic misfit, but the memory of having been one never goes away. Instead of traumatizing me or holding me back, I think it's actually helped make my hard-earned cognitive empathy better than it would have been had I been a classic NT from birth. Everyone, regardless of neurotype, is a little strange to me, so I'm open to questioning and refining my ideas about them.



Dreadful Dante
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10 Jul 2016, 8:39 am

I know being different makes me unique and, honestly, a badass. I see NTs around me as the ones who mostly need help to understand and deal with difference. I'm already at ease with it as an important and inevitable part of me. A gift I dare to say, but I'm still treated agressively when I'm not what they expect.

Thank you! I will soon find help. It might be difficult for me now to be officially diagnosed, as the majority of Psyche professionals don't give me enough time to verbalize. The last I went to, didn't realise that I was trying to ask for help when the only thing that came out was ramblings about my personality traits. I thought I was being very clear. I was absolutely wrong. She took me as absolutely normal because I wasn't able to verbalise my plea. I was shaky from nervousness at the time (I realised days later it wasn't the cold that caused it).

I feel like a child trying to find the right words to express himself but no one's patient enough to wait for him to say all he wants or even finish a sentence because it takes too long.

(I came up with this explanation after months of thinking)

Peacefully,
Dante.



CryingTears15
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10 Jul 2016, 11:14 am

I scored 114 points, high.

I really, really, want to feel empathy and be a kind person. I try hard to feel empathy, but sometimes it comes naturally. I want friends, and a lover, and it's terrifying to think that I might not be able to fulfill their emotional needs. My mom tells me I act "selfish" a lot... Classmates avoid me. I can't tell what I look like to them, inside my bubble. But I will work hard to be better at empathy. I really, really want to be a reciprocal person.



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10 Jul 2016, 1:23 pm

CryingTears15 wrote:
I scored 114 points, high.

I really, really, want to feel empathy and be a kind person. I try hard to feel empathy, but sometimes it comes naturally. I want friends, and a lover, and it's terrifying to think that I might not be able to fulfill their emotional needs. My mom tells me I act "selfish" a lot... Classmates avoid me. I can't tell what I look like to them, inside my bubble. But I will work hard to be better at empathy. I really, really want to be a reciprocal person.


I can relate to it. My mom would call me selfish often. After one year of group therapy I learned to be more kind and also learned some of the logics of it. It was not just group therapy, though. Tens of books and courses helped me too.

What I hear A LOT is people telling me to stop trying to feel emotional attachment, that it's a natural thing. Okay, I understand that FOR THEM it's a natural thing. If I don't force myself to socialize and return emotional stimuli, I can easily go through 4 months with almost no interaction (as happened many times before) and don't even realise. I put myself in those situations. I don't have an "intrinsic social drive".

As to what you look like to them. I ask that a lot to some colleagues and family members. Some find it weird, some kindly answer my question and help me improve.

I'm used to being avoided, but through studying REAL HARD I'm able to make myself likable if I'm focused on how I'm behaving (it tires me like a math test, though).

Peacefully,
Dante.



sokiu
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17 Aug 2016, 4:04 am

Great thread idea!



ScoeyB
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17 Aug 2016, 3:46 pm

Gerhardt wrote:
I've told some women that I have Aspergers directly but it ends up making things even more awkward.


Half-kidding: Have you tried men?



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18 Aug 2016, 10:26 pm

I'm mostly NT (okay, bipolar) and I'm responding to a couple comments about how an NT reacts to having a romantic relationship with an ASD person who has alyexthemia.
I find Aspies utterly charming in their inimitable charm-free manner. I'm an Aspie fan! A wannabe. LoL.

The thing I love about Aspies is that they are genuine. American society is full of people putting on facades, and I hate that. If someone doesn't like me, I'd rather they be rude to my face than give me a fake smile. I don't even like having wait staff at restaurants give me fake smiles. I've spent too many years pasting a fake smile on my face, just to maintain the appearance of happiness.

Aspies, by and large, don't give fake smiles. Which makes their genuine smiles all the more precious!

Aspies are not so good at hiding their emotions in general, and that is refreshing. I want to see the sadness, hurt, joy, boredom, frustration, whatever feeling is there, under the surface. Your emotions are easy to read because you're lacking in artiface.
I might even be aware of your emotions before you can put a name to what you are feeling. That's okay. I don't mind helping you identify your feelings, verbalize your feelings. Or give you space if you want to sort it out for yourself. I feel the need to protect you, though, from others who might take advantage of your openness.

I heard a theory many years ago that men tend to develop alyexthemia more often because male infants are less mature, less physically stable, than female infants. Therefore, the baby boys were easier to "read" and the mothers were better able to anticipate their needs and respond to the babies' needs without the baby having to express those needs. So, you can blame your extraordinarily sensitive mother for the development of your alyexthemia. LoL.



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27 Aug 2016, 10:32 am

Ugh, alexithymia in my face again, with the "not missing people" thing. Because I just moved house again. At my last address there was a woman I went out platonically with often - coffee, dinner, had good talks with and so on. I was not adverse to interacting with her, as I regarded her well as a person and she could be interesting.
But I haven't heard from her since the move - and I don't feel anything whatsoever about that. It was fine when she was there, it's fine when she's not there. It'd be fine if she was there again, and so on.
I had a very frank discussion about this with new therapist, who is unusually understanding of autism and autistic alexithymia. First person in a decade who told me not to fake anything with her. I described it as a complete absence of affection or attachment.
But it is also a complete absence of hate, the desire to hurt others, holding onto grudges or hurt feelings, etc. Doesn't happen. It is just a continuity of equilibrium that dips into the decision to interact or not interact dependent on behaviour and circumstances.
I'm perfectly capable of valuing others intellectually, respecting them, and seeing the gain in associating, either for them or me or both. A relationship of sorts could exist in these parameters. It just may be very difficult for a neurotypical person to accept, being so radically different from their own framework.
As I pointed out to said therapist, without an instinctual emotional guide, my sense of ethical structure is more highly developed than most. I've had to think this through. But that said, I am unfortunately not Mr. Spock. I have the capacity for emotional response (I checked this neurophysically, neurochemically and cognitively as part of my own investigation) and am capable of it. It's just that if I am acting emotionally, I won't understand or be able to process what is going on, which makes it overwhelming, difficult and confusing for me. Emotions exist in the chemical sense. I'm just cut of from them.
Alexithymia is as much of a riddle as autism is. I don't know what I think of it all right now. But sometimes I see it as inadequate, like I'm not a real person without an emotional nature, and I wish someone would come along and make me feel something for them.
Also may be of interest - I concluded that part of this may be autistic alexithymia and a result of base divergent neurology, but part of it may be a result of past negative conditioned behaviour, just like anyone else. The therapist agreed in her experience with those on the spectrum, it may be impossible to "wake up" the emotional functions. But reversing past conditioning and old programming that may be adding to emotional repression is much more pliable. It won't make an alexithymic "normal," but it may help them process their own emotional impulses and respond more effectively to others' emotional natures. That's what I'm shooting for.
I for one would like to have relationships with others - but me and everyone else involved is going to have to be accepting from the start that this will be atypical. And not expect it to be "normal" at all. Maintaining proper expectations from an alexithymic autistic and not expecting them to be empathetic may make the relationship much more beneficial for everyone.


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deci16
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22 Sep 2016, 8:22 pm

Dear Aspie Members

Please give details on how an NT partner can approach an aspie to speak with them about emotions and emotional needs without overwhelming the aspie partner and causing them to shutdown and or stonewalling their NT partners?