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ruveyn
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20 Dec 2009, 9:17 am

Inventor wrote:


It is a hopeless case, preserve the earth, they just have a bit longer, the sooner it crashes, the quicker the earth recovers.



f**k the Earth. I want to see the human race survive as long as possible.

We need to treat the Earth well enough to ensure our own survival. Other species are of importance to the extent that WE need them. For example, the birds, who eat a lot of bugs which would otherwise destroy our food supply.

Earth itself has no inherent value. If we could move to another planet and thrive their, then burn the land and boil the sea.

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20 Dec 2009, 12:41 pm

No species can be an 'error' or 'wrong'. They just exist. Those that exist for a long time appear to be or have become well adapted (survival of the fittest).

I don't think it is 'good' if humans will stay on Earth long.
We are not that important.
But I also don't think humans are 'bad' and should soon become extinct.
We just are, part of the evolution and part of the whole system.

And maybe if there will be too much people and not enough food we will become cannibals.

The species keep changing, the ecosystem(s) searching for balance, but it will always keep changing, until all have become extinct.
And planets change too.

The problem is, if there is global warming and we are causing it, there will be areas with people and other organisms more affected by it than others, and people who contributed more to it than others, so it's not 'fair'.

What I am worried about most, for preservation of the Earth, is nuclear pollution, since it can last so long.

:roll:


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20 Dec 2009, 5:38 pm

Humancentric thinking, it is all about us.

We are just part of a system, a film of life on a ball of rock, something very rare.

The air we breath comes mostly from the ocean, and the forests. We treat both as enemies, loot and pillage them.

Our food comes from a small part of the fifth of the surface above sea level. The land is treated like our slave, to be worked to death for our glory.

We exist because of other life, soil bacteria, worms, insects, bees, birds, bats, that support the plant life. We poison them.

Fresh water is common to all land life, we use it for a sewer, cheap disposal, and through constant farming and ranching exploit every blade of grass. The plant cover that held the moisture and cooled the surface is gone, drought spreads, and through history, where humans were, there is now desert.

Other species have overrun their food supply, till one summer all was eaten to bare ground, then they died. No species has made such broad war on all land, water, other life, and their food supply, like humans have.

Where most species have lasted five million years, humans were under ten thousand several times in the last 100,000 years, the current sub species is perhaps 125,000 years old, and now consume the whole planet.

If biological adaption, fitting within the web of life is the measure, humans are the least fit to suvive.

Global Warming is the least damage done, it just opens more areas. The trees of southern France have grown in Scandinavia, in recent times. The ice wall has run from London to the Urals, in recent time. Humans were not a factor in climate.

Humans are the main factor in the distruction of ecosystems. They are the only factor in the spread of long term toxins, lead, mecury, DDT, PCBs, Dioxin, Nuclear waste. These problems will persist for longer than the species has been around.

Their behavior will lead to their demise, and the whole system will change and adapt. There is nothing in earth history like this period, the worst of the past was volcanos that did manage to change the Ph, which favored some species.

What humans have done is not good for any life. As the most damaging species of all time, their time is short.

Life will continue, even after the food wars, The sun is good for billions of years, and the planet will be covered by an interconnected web of life.

As for being "Fair", the main problem we face is the growing population, and that is coming from the tropical third world. Population has stablized in the temperate zones, and now the tropicals are moving north to claim it. Up to 10% of the people in the USA just decided to come here. Europe has the same problem. Humans will destroy, over populate, then migrate to richer area, and the north is rich, and only 10% of the world population. It is war by other names, invasion.

I am willing to reduce Carbon just as much as the world is willing to reduce population.

One child per family would reach both goals in a few generations.



southwestforests
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20 Dec 2009, 6:04 pm

Ya make sense Inventor, ya make sense.


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24 Dec 2009, 2:24 am

My money is on an Ice Age.

Either a mini ice age as we had a few hundred years ago or a full blown ice age that will see the ice advance to the middle of England and Manhattan.

The solar sunspot cycle has dried up.

I laughed my butt off when Obama said that he had to leave the "global warming" summit early to get back to Washington before a huge blizzard closed the airport.

Enjoy your "white Christmas" you people in America and Europe.



ruveyn
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24 Dec 2009, 6:27 am

Inventor wrote:
Humancentric thinking, it is all about us.

We are just part of a system, a film of life on a ball of rock, something very rare.

The air we breath comes mostly from the ocean, and the forests. We treat both as enemies, loot and pillage them.

Our food comes from a small part of the fifth of the surface above sea level. The land is treated like our slave, to be worked to death for our glory.



Slaves are people. The land and seas are not people.

ruveyn



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26 Dec 2009, 7:39 pm

Scientist wrote:
Here's what came out of the Copenhagen climate summit:
Key powers reach compromise at climate summit

I think it's better than no deal at all.
But we'll have to see how this deal will work out.



You should watch this. it explains why it wont work.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA6FSy6EKrM[/youtube]



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27 Dec 2009, 8:20 am

just-me wrote:
Scientist wrote:
Here's what came out of the Copenhagen climate summit:
Key powers reach compromise at climate summit

I think it's better than no deal at all.
But we'll have to see how this deal will work out.



You should watch this. it explains why it wont work.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA6FSy6EKrM[/youtube]


Of course it won't work. The climate of the world is always changing regardless of what we do.

ruveyn



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27 Dec 2009, 11:04 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Of course it won't work. The climate of the world is always changing regardless of what we do.
ruveyn


I think you missed the entire point of the video... :?



ruveyn
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28 Dec 2009, 11:07 am

EC wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Of course it won't work. The climate of the world is always changing regardless of what we do.
ruveyn


I think you missed the entire point of the video... :?


No I didn't. I took it literally, as is my wont.

ruveyn



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29 Dec 2009, 11:48 pm

I was trying to find an on-line copy of "The Market for Excuses" by Watts & Zimmerman, published in 1979. Here is a reference to it http://markuswiener.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=219. While that article was about accounting theories, the discussion I think applies equally to all disciplines. There is no "market" for research that says CO2 is not responsible for global warming. Watts and Zimmerman created great controversy by explaining with great logic why academics don't always seek the truth.

Has everyone forgotten the "millenium bug" that was going to wreck life as we knew it? Refridgerators and cars would stop working. There would be no power or water. According to all academics, the world was going to be plunged into chaos and anyone who dared say anything against it was howled down as a simpleton.

A great book written in the 19th Century is "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds". It's been reprinted recently.


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30 Dec 2009, 4:44 am

BazzaMcKenzie wrote:
Has everyone forgotten the "millenium bug" that was going to wreck life as we knew it? Refridgerators and cars would stop working. There would be no power or water. According to all academics, the world was going to be plunged into chaos and anyone who dared say anything against it was howled down as a simpleton...

To a degree you're probably confusing what the media said, with what anyone who knew anything about it did; it's the same with the global warming thing -- the media and politicians cherry-pick the juicy bits to attract viewers or to sell policy. And although the world didn't end ten years ago the date problem was real for many people, and still is now. It's a fairly simple concept that's not only applicable in a Y2K context, as where and when it's a problem is dependent on how the date is stored and formatted. With regard to Y2K specifically, huge amounts of money were spent addressing the problem so you can sit here and say it wasn't a problem.



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30 Dec 2009, 5:40 am

ascan wrote:
.... With regard to Y2K specifically, huge amounts of money were spent addressing the problem so you can sit here and say it wasn't a problem.

my refrigerator still works, so I guess you must be right


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30 Dec 2009, 6:24 am

Y2K was real, if you were running a 70's version of FORTRAN.

Lots of money was spent to fix a problem that did not exist, and they fixed it!

My elephant repelant charm works the same, not an elephant around in years.

Australia has taken the lead in Global Warming, not with talk, but with action!

They very recently seeded the ocean with a few billion tons of iron rich dust, which will cause a massive plankton bloom.

Plankton is the base of the life chain, and it absorbs CO2!

A little iron will lead to billions of tons of CO2 becoming the carbonate shells so much in fashion with Formifaria.

The Australian Academy of Beer Science issued a report. Aye! Fair Dinkum!

Global Warming is solved!



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31 Dec 2009, 6:37 am

Here's a thought for all the CO2 nut jobs.

New Zealand is already taxing farmers because their cows and sheep fart and burp. How making the farmers pay money is going to save the world is beyond me but there is a greater evil!

Every time you open a can of soft drink or beer you are releasing the dreaded CO2 into the atmosphere. 8O

So logically either you should be made to drink flat cola and beer or you should pay a carbon tax on each can. This tax can also cover your burping after drinking the cola.



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31 Dec 2009, 5:44 pm

Wombat wrote:
Here's a thought for all the CO2 nut jobs.

New Zealand is already taxing farmers because their cows and sheep fart and burp. How making the farmers pay money is going to save the world is beyond me but there is a greater evil!

Every time you open a can of soft drink or beer you are releasing the dreaded CO2 into the atmosphere. 8O

So logically either you should be made to drink flat cola and beer or you should pay a carbon tax on each can. This tax can also cover your burping after drinking the cola.
When people fart and burp the same happens as for all animals. And for all animals (people included) breathing out CO2 also increases CO2 in the atmosphere. So then all animals should stop farting, burping and breathing, so we should all die, but when we die also CO2 will be released. So then maybe all animals should stop reproducing. Then CO2 will decrease. But the CO2 that is released by farting, burping and breathing comes from the food we and other animals eat, so in the system it remains the same.

Concerning sparkling drinks:

From food-info.net/uk/e/e290.htm:
Quote:
E290: Carbon dioxide
Origin:
Normal natural gas. Part of air and produced by the metabolism of the body.
Function & characteristics:
Used in carbonated drinks for the sparkling effect. Also used in modified atmosphere packaging and propellant in gas containers.
Products:
carbonated drinks, prepacked foods, cream
So the CO2 in sparkling drinks comes from the air.

In beer and champagne yeasts ferment sugars and form carbon dioxide gas (and alcohol).

So all this CO2 comes from the air and from plants.
But for producing drinks containing CO2 we need energy to take the CO2 from the air and put it into drinks. This energy, if it comes from burning fossil fuels, will quickly increase CO2 in the atmosphere.

In the atmosphere plants will take CO2 out of the atmosphere and produce O2.

So the problems arise when we don't have enough plants and trees on Earth to make O2 from the increased CO2 levels.
So maybe we should all start planting trees :roll:

Taxes won't solve the problem.
Unless these taxes will be used for planting trees ;)


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Last edited by Scientist on 31 Dec 2009, 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.